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Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

Hello and welcome once more to another week of Tinto Maps. This week we are going to the lands even further to the East and taking a look at Korea and Japan. So, without further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
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Korea during the Goryeo dynasty was under the orbit of Yuán, and had very close ties with it, with the Yuán emperors taking Korean wives. The north, though, and also Tamna in the Jeju island wouldn’t be unified under Korea until the following Joseon dynasty, so they are still separated although all of them also under Yuán. On the other side, Japan starts in a very interesting situation. After a failed attempt to overthrow the shogunate and restore imperial power during the Kenmu restoration, one of the generals that contributed to such restoration, Ashikaga Takauji, in the end established his own shogunate in 1336 (just before the start of the game). The emperor had then to flee the capital and thus we start with the period of the Northern and Southern Courts, with two opposing Emperors and the shogun fighting for legitimacy. So, although it appears unified at first glance, Japan hides many internal divisions within (more on that later). Further South, the kingdom of Ryūkyū is not yet unified, so the three mountain kingdoms of Hokuzan, Chūzan and Nanzan vie for supremacy over the island.

Societies of pops
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Basically already shown in the Manchuria Tinto Maps, but they need to be shown here too, especially the Ainu.

Dynasties
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As it happens in China, the “Goryeo dynasty” name is actually not the name of the dynasty itself, which is actually the house of Wang.

Locations
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Provinces
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Here (as well as with the areas next) we have tried to follow the administrative division of both countries in period, but we’ve had to make some adjustments. In Korea, we had to account for the fact that historically, almost immediately after the start of the game the Josen dynasty took over and the administrative divisions are somewhat different, so we’ve adjusted them together (and had to divide some of the bigger provinces for gameplay reasons). In Japan, the administrative divisions remained virtually unchanged since the establishment of the Ritsuryō system in the 7-8th century until after the Meiji restoration in 1868. However, we still had to make some adjustments, and the smaller ones had to unfortunately disappear.

Areas
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Terrain
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Very mountainous and forested areas both, so the few plains have to be taken the most advantage of.

Development
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Not bad developed areas, but obviously development decreases the further north it goes.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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Korea is mainly Korean, and Japan has been divided into four main groups. Besides this, we also have Ainu in the north, Jeju in Jeju island and Ryūkyū in the Ryūkyū islands.

Religions
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Korea has the same (name pending) religion as China while Japan is Shintō. I must say that this Shintō is not at all considered to be a Kami-exclusively-oriented Shintō nor the post-Meiji State Shintō in any shape or form. In all effects, it is considered under the Buddhism umbrella and it is treated as Buddhist Shintō, while of course including some different mechanics and references to the Kami too. The name Shintō was chosen basically because it’s more recognizable and identifiable with Japan. Besides this, there’s also the Ainu religion for the Ainu, and the Utaki religion for the Ryūkyū.

Raw Materials
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Not bad areas for resources, and plenty of rice and fish in Japan to get good sushi. The more observant of you will see that the resources of Hokkaido have already been adjusted thanks to feedback from the previous Manchuria Tinto Maps.

Markets
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Some may find surprising the presence of Izumi as a Market in Japan, but it is the area that served as the main point of entrance for commerce into central Japan, where the merchant town of Sakai developed, until later Osaka developed under Toyotomi and basically took over that function.

Population
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Not much to say here, except that quite a bit of population waiting for some action.

Extraterritorial Countries
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I’m sure many of you were waiting for this. The samurai clans in Japan are represented as Extraterritorial Countries, and we have tried to be as close as possible to their distribution of territory in 1337. As you can imagine, that is not an easy task, and some more tweaking is needed, so if you have any feedback or extra info on that regard it would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, there’s some overlapping of some clans on the same territory and only one name can be shown at a time, so not all names are visible (the Oda clan is still there, I promise), but there are a total of 143 clans (not counting Ashikaga), plus two extra for each of the imperial courts that are present at start. Related to this, each clan will pledge its allegiance to either the northern or the southern court, mainly based on their historical allegiances but allowing a bit of leeway (and those allegiances don’t necessarily have to be permanent). So, as a bit of an extra tease, these are the allegiances of the clans at start (yellow are the north court supporters, blue are the southern court ones, and again keep in mind that only one color can be present even if there’s more than one clan with different allegiances in the same location)
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And that is all for today. Next week there will not be any Tinto Maps due to being a bank holiday, so next one will be in two weeks for a look further south into South East Asia. See you there.
 
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Awesome to have clans as countries!

Why not stripes for different allegiance in same locations?

Also that's a lot of gold compared to some other regions or am I misremembering?
 
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I can't tell, are the small islands in the south of Ryukyu (Yaeyama Islands, Miyako Islands) represented as a location? If so, their climate should certainly be Tropical Forest. They should be uncolonised terrain, but I think they should exist if they don't.
Okinawa Island itself verges on the tropical instead of subtropical as well, so it's an option to change it.

Also, the climate mapmode is borderline unreadable due to the effect on the colouring. Please make it a flat colour like other map modes, reading it is so hard because of the gradient effect for no reason.

As regards Sado Island, I don't think silver production was significant at this time. The great Tsurushi Silver Mine was only discovered in 1542, so maybe having the silver be discovered instead of existing from game start could be an alteration.
 
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1. With all of overlapping clans in Japan, it'd be difficult to select some of the specific daimyo tags. Is there something like CK3's landless characters tab that just shows them all in a list to make it easier to choose ones hidden on the map at game start?

2. Will new clans be able to rise and fall dynamically over time, especially as Japan begins expanding?

3. While we don't have the specifics on how shogunate Japan will work yet, I'm assuming it will be a little similar to how like in the new admin government for ck3, certain families/clans can gain and lose countrol of the country constantly over time. Assuming this isn't a hardcoded system, would it be possible for modders to take these mechanics and apply to another country, or even have it occur dynamically for any country so theoretically any tag could have this family/clan sort of system?
 
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I suggest you change the Areas of Japan to reflect more the regions of Japan since they have been around for quite a while
View attachment 1206917
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Those are the modern divisions, we are following the Ritsuryō system, which was in effect as administrative division since the 8th century up to after the Meiji restoration in the 19th century.
 
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Ryukyu is severely lacking in natural harbors, and it shouldn’t be as nearly as culturally cohesive as it currently is, though I can understand merging some cultures for simplicity’s sake. Yomitan, Unten, and Naha are some natural harbors I can name off the top of my head, here’s some info about them from Turnbull’s book about the conquest of Ryukyu by Satsuma. I’ll get back to the culture issue later, but here’s some language/dialect maps of Ryukyu before that.


“The Ryukyuan languages belong to the Japonic language family, related to the Japanese language.[3][4] The Ryukyuan languages are not mutually intelligible with Japanese—in fact, they are not even mutually intelligible with each other—and thus are usually considered separate languages.[3] However, for socio-political and ideological reasons, they have often been classified within Japan as dialects of Japanese.[3]”
 

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Carpatho-Balkans review when tho??
Yeah, Japan and Korea look amazing, and I don't want to hijack this thread/the feedback or anything. But we have no clue whatsoever, and Pavia talked about 'a few weeks' back in September. Plus, we've already seen some tidbits in last week's posts.

So, it'd be nice to know if next week is an option, or that we should wait a bit longer. Managing expectations and all that. It's basically taking longer than even the Baltics/Poland area now.
 
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The term "Jeju" is used from the mainland (the Korean Peninsula) perspective, so I believe that "Jeju" culture should instead be referred to as "Tamna" culture. "Tamna" is a name that historically and culturally represents the island's unique identity and traditions prior to its incorporation into the mainland’s jurisdiction.
We are already using "Tamna" for the country, I guess we could use it for the name of the culture too.
 
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As we traveled through Central Asia I lost a bit a sense of size.

Could I ask you for a screenshot of locations of Japan and some country in Europe at the same zoom level? I'm curious to what it is comparable.
 
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The idea is that they have a way for that, but obviously all hell will break lose way further during the Sengoku when the clans will start getting landed.
Playing as the Shogunate, is it possible to work against the fragmentation of the country?
Can the Shogun use warfare and diplomacy to weaken the clans and strengthen the central government so that, by the time the Sengoku Jidai sets off, it can be more of a thing between the central government and the clans who want to remain independent instead of a chaotic free for all?
 
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Seems like there should be more Iron in Chugoku, it was by far Japan’s premier Iron producing region, with the ore mines in the north being significantly behind the iron sands of the peninsula. Ironworking was a major part of the region’s culture as well, with the cult of the Iron goddess Kanayago being extremely popular. Gunsen/Gunbai history has an excellent article on Japanese iron in general that I heavily recommended, all of the sources on his website.




“Legend has it that the deity Kanayago bestowed the knowledge of tatara to the people of this region. To this day, those who work in the iron industry worship Kanayago at more than a thousand dedicated shrines around the country. At their peak during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the ironworks of the Chugoku Mountains area of western Japan collectively produced 80 percent of the country’s iron. The town of Yasugi served as a port of call for the trading ships known as kitamaebune which played a pivotal role in transporting tatara iron to other parts of Japan.
The heritage of tatara ironmaking is preserved and passed on by the Itohara Memorial Museum in Okuizumo, Sugaya Tatara Sannai in Unnan, and the Wakou Museum in Yasugi.”

While inside the "Recollections of Japan: with Observations on the Geography, Climate, Population, and Productions of the Country" by "Vasiliĭ Mikhaĭlovich Golovnin" who stayed in Japan from the 1811 to the 1813, there is written:


"With respect to iron, the Japanese do not posses that metal in such abundance as copper, but they have sufficient to supply their absolute wants; and if the government exchanged with the Dutch, copper for iron, this was not out of necessity, [...] If the Japanese had not iron sufficient for their absolute wants, they would certainly set more value on the trade with the Dutch"

In the "History of Japan - together with a description of the kingdom of Siam" by Engelbert Kaempfer,written in the late 1600s, he wrote that:


"Iron is dug up only upon the confines of the three provinces Mimasaka, Bitsju and Bisen. But is found there in large quantities. It is refin'd upon the spot, and cast into Staffs or Cylinders, two spans long. Japanese Merchants buy it at the place, and export it all over the Empire."
Chugoku is already where most of the iron in Japan is currently, but we will review it and see if we can add some more source of it.
 
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