Tinto Maps #24 Korea and Japan Feedback

[Roger Corominas]

Hello and welcome to another week of Tinto Maps Feedback. Today, we will take a look at Korea and Japan. This area has required less rework than other ones, but still some adjustments have been made.

Spoiler: List of changes

ADDITIONS

Added the following:

• Locations
  • Tamura
  • Seongwi
  • Jindo
  • Heungyang
  • Namhae
  • Geoje
• TAGs
  • Shěnyáng
• Characters
  • ssg_jo_hwi
  • ssg_jo_yanggi
  • ssg_jo_rim
  • ssg_jo_sosaeng
  • ssg_jo_don
  • ssg_jo_inbyeok
  • kor_ja
  • kor_ko

CORRECTIONS

Renamed the following:

• Locations:
  • Renamed Aira to Kuwabara
  • Renamed Jeju to Tamna

Areas and Provinces

• Total rework of areas and provinces of Korea
• Renamed Tōhoku to Ōu

Cultures

• Renamed Jeju culture to Tamna

Raw Goods

• Changed several Raw Goods as suggested

Terrain and Vegetation

• Total Review

Locations

• Redrew several Locations

Minorities

• Added someminorities

Countries:

Not many changes here, only the addition of Shenyang.​

Dynasties:

Not many changes here either, but you can see that Shenyang has the same dynasty as Goryeo.​

Country ranks and Government Types:

Locations:

As I said, no major changes here, only minor adjustments.​

Spoiler: Some closer look

Provinces:

Areas:

Provinces and areas of Korea is what has received the most change here.​

Terrain:

Development:

Harbors:

Cultures:

Not much change in the major cultures, although a bit of adjustment of minorities.​

Languages:

Location’s language first, Court Language second.​

Religions:

Raw Materials:

Spoiler: A closer look

Markets:

And not much has changed with the clans distribution, but here you have it:

That is all for today, this week we will not move far from these areas, here’s the schedule:

• Tuesday: Tinto Flavour for Korea and Manchuria
• Wednesday: Tinto Talks for Shintō and the Shogunate
• Thursday: ‘Behind the Music of Europa Universalis V - Composing the Grandest Score’ video!
• Friday: Tinto Flavour for Japan and the situations of the Nanbokuchō and Sengoku Jidai

And always as a reminder: Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!

 

[Roger Corominas]

What about Ryukuyu? Does it have three kings or no?

There have been no substantial changes in Ryukyu compared to when the first post about the region was made, so that's why they have been omitted from this. But yes, there are three tags in Ryukyu.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Is it possible to unite the Japanese cultures into one pan-Japanese culture, like with Russian culture?

All of them are in the Japanese culture group, so yes.

 

[Roger Corominas]

## Importance of Court Noble and Temple/Shrine Powers in Medieval Japan

Medieval Japanese society was a complex, multilayered structure where the warrior (buke), court noble (kugyo), and temple/shrine (jisha) powers intertwined and mutually influenced each other. To deeply understand this era, it's essential to consider not only the warrior class but also the court nobles and temple/shrine powers. As the NMIH mod author for CK2 may touch upon the warrior powers, I will explain the importance and specific presence of the court noble and temple/shrine powers here.

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### Court Noble (Kugyo) Powers

In medieval Japan, court nobles weren't just imperial officials; they formed a strong aristocratic society based on "kakaku" (family status). Some scholars suggest that through marriages with warrior families, a unified aristocratic society spanning both court and military came into being, with both sides sharing culture. Living in Kyoto, they controlled vast shōen (manors), and their economic and political influence was undeniable.

Regarding court noble powers, I am currently researching this topic. It would be appropriate to select forces from among the Tōshōke (court nobles permitted access to the imperial palace), Kokushu (de facto rulers of specific provinces), and Kugyō Taishō (court nobles holding military and political authority).

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### Temple and Shrine (Jisha) Powers

In medieval Japan, temples and shrines held vast shōen (manors) and wielded significant economic and political power. Below is a summary of the major temple and shrine powers and their characteristics.

#### Major Temple and Shrine Powers

- Enryaku-ji on Mount Hiei (Tendai School): The head temple of the Tendai school, it possessed strong military forces (sōhei or warrior monks) and exerted considerable influence on politics. Kiyomizu-dera was one of its branch temples, and Tōnomine was also under Enryaku-ji.
- Kōfuku-ji (Nanto Shoshū, Southern Capital Buddhist Schools): A central temple of Nanto Buddhism, it controlled the Kasuga Shrine. It was also the parent temple of Kiyomizu-dera and held extensive temple estates in Yamato Province.
- Tōdai-ji (Nanto Shoshū, Southern Capital Buddhist Schools): Known for its Great Buddha in Nara, it was a colossal temple alongside Kōfuku-ji in Nanto Buddhism. It also held extensive temple estates in Yamato Province.
- Onjō-ji (Tendai School): A powerful Tendai temple alongside Enryaku-ji, it was referred to as Jimon.
- Kongōbu-ji on Mount Kōya (Shingon School): A sacred site of Shingon Esoteric Buddhism, it controlled vast temple lands and numerous branch temples.
- Tō-ji (Shingon School): Located in Kyoto, it is one of the central temples of the Shingon school.
- Iwashimizu Hachiman-gū: An influential shrine in Kyoto, possessing extensive shōen.
- Kumano Sanzan (Hongū, Shingū, Nachi): Sacred sites for Shugendō (mountain asceticism), they had extensive temple/shrine lands and influence. In particular, in Kii Province, temple/shrine lands accounted for 80-90% of the paddy field area.
- Tōnomine: Although a branch temple of Enryaku-ji, it maintained its own influence.
- Kinpusen-ji: Located in Yoshino, it was a central site for Shugendō.

#### Other Influential Temples and Shrines

- Kanshin-in (Gion-sha), Kitano-sha, Kiyomizu-dera, Byōdō-in (Uji), Yakushi-ji, Saidai-ji, Gangō-ji, Furu-sha (Nara), Chikuzen Kanzeon-ji, Buzen Usa Hachiman, Echizen Heisen-ji, and*Hōki Daisen-ji were all organized as branch temples or shrines of powerful institutions like Enryaku-ji, Kōfuku-ji, Tōdai-ji, and Iwashimizu Hachiman during the 11th and 12th centuries.
- Atsuta-sha (Aichi), Ise Jingū (Mie), Shitennō-ji (Osaka), Kōkawa-dera, and Negoro-ji (Wakayama) were also important temples and shrines in the medieval period. In Kii Province, in addition to these temples and shrines, a power known as Kii Sōkoku also existed, involved in the overall governance of the region.

#### Zen Buddhist Temples

During the Muromachi period, Zen Buddhism received patronage from the shogunate, and the "Gozan" (Five Mountains) system was established.

- Kyoto Gozan: Tenryū-ji, Shōkoku-ji, Kennin-ji, Tōfuku-ji, and Manju-ji. Nanzen-ji was designated as a special, higher-ranking temple.
- Kamakura Gozan: Kenchō-ji, Engaku-ji, Jufuku-ji, Jōchi-ji, and Jōmyō-ji.
- Ringeka no Zen (Zen of the Forests and Rivers): This refers to Zen temples that did not receive direct shogunate patronage and operated more independently. Representative examples include Daitoku-ji and Myōshin-ji (Rinzai school) in Kyoto, and Eihei-ji (Fukui) and Sōji-ji (Ishikawa) (Sōtō school). After the Ōnin War, as the Gozan temples declined, the Ringeka no Zen temples gained more popular support.

#### Other Emerging Religious Powers

- Nichiren-shū (Hokke-shū): Gained significant power in Kyoto by attracting the support of the machishū (townsmen).
- Ikkō-shū (Jōdo Shinshū): Expanded rapidly through the evangelism of Rennyo, becoming so powerful that they formed Ikkō-ikki (Ikkō uprisings) and even confronted Sengoku daimyō (warring state lords). Its base was Ōtani Hongan-ji in Kyoto.

#### Economic Power and Urban Formation of Temples and Shrines

Many temples and shrines possessed vast shōen, giving them immense economic power. Furthermore, merchants and artisans gathered around their precincts and gates, and it was not uncommon for goyō-jiin (official temples) to form urban centers. The religious structure, with the Kamakura Gozan and Tsurugaoka Hachiman-gū at its apex, was essential for the maintenance of the Kamakura shogunate's system.

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### Conclusion

Ultimately, to comprehend the power structures, culture, and economy of medieval Japanese society, it's essential to recognize that court nobles and temples/shrines existed alongside, and often in close conjunction with, warrior families in shaping society. In particular, the presence of court noble and temple/shrine lords was indispensable to the shōen system. Some views even suggest that during the Muromachi period, the shōen system, encompassing warrior-held lands, should be seen as a new stage rather than a period of decline merely due to the reduction of court noble and temple/shrine acquisitions.

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### References

- Kuroda Toshio, Jisha Seiryoku: Mō Hitotsu no Chūsei Shakai (Temple and Shrine Powers: Another Medieval Society)
- Itō Masatoshi, Jisha Seiryoku no Chūsei (Medieval Temple and Shrine Powers)
- Kawai Atsushi, Nihon San Daibakufu o Kaibō Suru (Dissecting Japan's Three Great Shogunates)
- Enahara Masaharu, Muromachi Bakufu to Chihō no Shakai (The Muromachi Shogunate and Local Society)

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If you require more detailed information about these temple/shrine powers, please feel free to ask. If you plan to feature these forces in a game or other content, we would be delighted if you could report your progress on the forums or similar platforms!

Although it would indeed be great if we could have enough granularity to represent individually all the major temple powers, I'm not sure if it would fit the format of the rest of the game. However, I've saved this post for future reference, just in case.

 

[Roger Corominas]

What about clans and Southern/Northern courts maps? Any changes?

I don't think much have changed with the clans, but I've added the image in the main post. For the Nanbokucho, you'll need to wait a couple of days more.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Map of Japan's clans, please?

Added to the main post.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Will there be a dedicated Buddhism thread at some point, or should we put any issues we have with 'Eastern Buddhism' as a religion here?
By the way, are there minority religions on the map in Japan and Korea? I'd especially expect Korean Shamanism to be a minority in the latter, in places where there's a lesser Buddhist influence.

Obviously Korean Buddhism has folk influences, but so does does Mongolian Buddhism, and yet you show that as separate from Tengr, so it's odd to see a different approach for a fairly comparable religious situation.

There will be a dedicated post to Buddhism.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Hello! I am amazed at your work.
By the way, regarding the addition of historical figures that you mentioned previously, has there been any progress? If there are still any Japanese clans that don't have historical figures set, please let me know (I CAN fill them based on the knowledge gained through developing NMIH MOD (CK2) and Shogunate MOD (CK3)).

Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

Hello and welcome once more to another week of Tinto Maps. This week we are going to the lands even further to the East and taking a look at Korea and Japan. So, without further ado, let’s get started. Countries Korea during the Goryeo dynasty...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

All the clans present in the game have their historical characters (at least as far as I was able to get information about them in the Japanese sources).

 

[Roger Corominas]

No Daimiyo map mode?

Added to the main post.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Can you show dialects mapmode?

They are the same as languages in this case.

 

[Roger Corominas]

What's the basis for the Ainu in northern Honshu? Is there some specific piece of evidence that suggests they were in those specific localities?

Nothing specific, but besides the fact that there was constant trade between Honshu and Hokkaido, there's also the Ando rebellion of 1320-1328, suggesting that there were some Ainu at least on the northern tip of Honshu.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Is "Eastern Buddhist" a work name or the final name? It doesn't make too much sense, given that technically all Buddhism is Eastern. Since it's the gamified amalgamation of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism anyway, what about calling it Three Teachings or something like that?

There will be a specific post about Buddhism talking bout that.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Whats the culture on the southern tip of mainland korea ?

Kyushu.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Can we see the volcano and earthquake map ? Should be very important for Japan

I'm not sure what you expected...

 

[Roger Corominas]

Can we get an explanation on why you divided Japanese cultures into the current four subcultures? For Saigoku and Togoku it looks to be entirely based on the border between Western and Eastern Japanese dialects, with Kyushu and Tohoku being regional break offs from the larger Eastern and Western branches. Is there any particular reason the team decided to split it 4 ways rather than simply dividing it into two, or going for ever further balkanization by dividing cultures entirely around regions? (Kyushu, Shikoku, Kanto cultures etc...)

View attachment 1315826

Basically a balance between actual distribution, gameplay, and historical significance.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Were the Matsura clan added? It's very hard to see anything with how zoomed out the map is
View attachment 1315839

Not individually right now, but there's the Yamashiro and the Hata clan, which both descend from the Matsura clan (the Hata being actually the biggest clan in the Matsura group)

 

[Roger Corominas]

Interesting, I cannot find much if anything on this rebellion sadly

You have to search in Japanese: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/安藤氏の乱

 

[Roger Corominas]

Regarding Mod Detail (Clan Elements)​

I propose to introduce detailed Clan elements, similar to the NMIH mod. I believe a detailed Clan system would be very effective in allowing players to deeply immerse themselves in history and experience the complex human relationships and power structures of medieval Japan. It offers several benefits:

• Enhanced Historical Immersion: By accurately replicating the historical backgrounds of individual clans and their ties to branch and cadet families, players can experience a more realistic medieval Japanese political and social landscape, beyond just inter-faction conflicts.
• Added Strategic Depth: Integrating intra-clan rivalries, loyalty dynamics, and marital alliances into the game system would expand diplomatic and internal affairs options, leading to more complex and nuanced strategic possibilities.
• Stronger Character Role-Playing: When a player's character belongs to a specific clan, it becomes easier to role-play in alignment with that clan's traditions and goals, enriching the overall game experience.

Of course, with NMIH as a precedent, referencing it could alleviate development complexity, making the effort well worth it.

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Regarding the Historical Accuracy of the Map​

Regarding the current map's discrepancies, such as the Noto Hatakeyama clan's presence in 1337, I want to emphasize that this point is crucial. The Noto Hatakeyama clan is merely an example, and I recognize this as an important aspect of the game's initial setup.
I believe that the placement of forces on the map should be as historically accurate as possible, and a separate system should be implemented for shugo (provincial governor) appointments and changes. Here's why:

1. Emphasis on Historical Accuracy: If the initial map deviates from historical fact, it could confuse players starting the game with historical context in mind. For historical strategy games like the EU series, the accuracy of initial settings greatly impacts the realism of the game experience.
2. Creation of Dynamic Gameplay: A separate shugo appointment system would allow for more dynamic and historically consistent events within the game, such as changes in shugo, or multiple clans vying for the same shugo position. This would lead to much more diverse gameplay than simply fixing a static initial placement.
3. Expansion of Player Choices: Making the acquisition and maintenance of shugo positions in-game objectives provides players with new strategic goals as they develop their own forces.

If there are other instances where the initial settings differ from historical fact, please share that information. It would greatly contribute to creating a more accurate map.

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Conclusion​

Implementing clan elements is a great way to enhance both the historical immersion and strategic depth of the game. Additionally, the map's initial settings should prioritize historical accuracy, and dynamic elements like the shugo appointment system should be handled separately to achieve a more realistic and diverse gameplay experience.

The Hatakeyama clan is already present in Noto. For the rest of issues, I'd say wait for the Tinto Talks and Tinto Flavor of the rest of the week.

 

[Roger Corominas]

I found another English source mentioning it, shouldn't the locality of Inaka also have a visible Ainu minority?

View attachment 1315859

The Ainu of Tsugaru : the indigenous history and shamanism of northern Japan

In presenting this thesis in partial fulfilment of the requirements for an advanced degree at the University of British Columbia, I agree that the Library shall make it freely available for reference and study. I further agree that permission for

www.academia.edu

There is no real concrete evidence but I think if you go with this interpretation Inaka seems a good center of Ainu presence too.

There are Ainu there too, it's just not reaching the minimum to show the stripes (barely though)

 

[Roger Corominas]

According to the shugo appointment list I'm currently editing, the Hatakeyama clan came to possess Noto in 1391. The source I referenced is from Tokyo Shuppan Publishing: https://www.tokyodoshuppan.com/book/b79498.html. Please note that the list itself is in Japanese.

Additionally, while referring to "Ishikawa Prefecture Surnames and Historical Figures Encyclopedia (Kadokawa Japanese Surnames and Historical Figures Encyclopedia Vol. 17)", no records were found of the Hatakeyama clan being active in Noto during the Nanboku-chō period.

They are indeed not considered to have enough presence in Noto yet, they are only present in a single location