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Tinto Maps #26 - 15th of November 2024 - Indonesia

Hello, and welcome to another week’s edition of the maps of Project Caesar. I hope you have your boat prepared, because today we’ll be doing some island hopping looking at all the archipelago of Indonesia.

Countries
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A very wide area filled with many countries. Obviously, the most important emerging power is Mahajapit, Majahapit, Mapajahit, Mahapajit, Mapajahit… Majapahit, originating from Java and who are taking advantage of the vacuum created by the disappearance of the Srivijaya Empire to conquer or subjugate many of the Malay polities to establish a new thalassocratic empire. In the island of Borneo, the Kingdom of Brunei is extending its territory with the subjugation of many countries in the Philippines, where the Kingdom of Tondo establishes a certain hegemony but still with many other polities in the islands that could easily take its place. On the Celebes, the island is divided into multiple countries, with the Kingdom of Luwu (starting with L) establishing a firm presence. Further east, Tidore and Ternate are ready to also be very influential polities in the region, despite their humble origins in their small islands.

Societies of Pops
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Not much in here, only the Orang Asli in the Malay peninsula and the Ilocos people in north Philippines.

Dynasties
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Not much to say here, as much of the dynasties are generated due to the lack of data. Notable exceptions to that are, of course, the Rajasa dynasty of Majapahit and the Mauli dynasty of the Melayu kingdom.

Locations
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Provinces
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Areas
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The name of the sea is still encroaching on the land, but this will be solved eventually. Fortunately, the islands make it quite easy to define the areas in this region.

Terrain
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Vegetation and climate is quite (almost) uniform with tropical jungle, while the topography makes it generally to be quite rugged, with flatlands being present almost only on the bigger islands.

Development
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As one would expect, these parts are not as developed as what we’ve been seeing recently.

Natural Harbors
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I don’t think it’s to anyone’s surprise that Singapore or Manila turned out to be such good harbors.

Cultures
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I think this may be the most culturally diverse area we’ve presented until now. Keep in mind though that minorities have not been done here yet, so there will probably be more blending and variation in the end.

Religions
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A foreword before presenting the religions of Indonesia. You might notice that the promise to break the Animist religion into smaller ones is now in full effect. However, this is not going to be the final step, but an intermediate one. We created a lot of different 'culture-based religions' where we knew that people had different believes and rites; now we want to group them into broader categories, that would make sense gameplay-wise, following similarities in beliefs, practices, or mythologies - take as an approximate example the Northern American religions shown in the Religious Overview Tinto Talks. In this regard, we will appreciate any feedback about how to better group these religions, as it will be much easier for us to do it with your help.

With that said, let's focus on Indonesia again. This region is also one of the most varied religion-wise. It is notable the presence of Hinduism and Mahayana, as the prominent countries in this area were Hindu-Buddhists before the arrival of Islam, which is currently just starting to make its entrance through the north of Sumatra.


Languages
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One thing I want to say here regarding languages (as for example I saw someone getting surprised by the Mon language presence in the south of the Malay peninsula) is that we have had to make some grouping of languages in certain cases. Among many other issues, languages need to have sets of names for characters, so in cases that we couldn’t find a suitable big enough group of names for a language, we were forced to group it with another one close in their linguistic group (even if just temporarily). We are currently working on improving this, so that we can have the best possible representation without having to compromise gameplay, so it is quite possible that some of the languages that we have been forced to group into bigger groups get further splits in the future. Also, dialects were not a thing yet when we did this area, so nothing about that is implemented here yet.

Court Languages
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Not much difference with the normal languages map, except only in those cases where a country is ruling over another culture (which will be mitigated once minorities are done)

Raw Materials
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Mainly lumber due to so many jungle, but also some other interesting resources here. And obviously also quite a bit of spices in the Spice Islands.

Markets
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Added here also the market languages, although keep in mind that it is just the language of the culture of the market center.

Population
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Majapahit is the most populated, which will help them become the regional hegemon they historically were.

That is all for this week. Don’t put away your boats yet though, as next week we will continue our seafaring adventures and take a look at Oceania. See you there.
 
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I hope you add an event of Islamization for this region, might be the most succesful Islamization in the game's time frame. Some content, maybe a situation?
Some setup that allows trade to spread religion to merchant/upper class populations could be useful here, in East and West Africa, and on the Steppe. Not too sure how you'd stop it from converting people who historically didn't convert this way though
 
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Honestly if you guys do go for the split of spices you can easily represent them by breaking up into 3 groups: Seed spices (fennel, coriander, cumin etc.) would be more common, bark spices (cinammon and cassia) spread them across southern India and Indonesia, and fruit spices (black pepper, long pepper, & cardamom) which would be rare and highly sought after.

Cloves & Saffron can be their own thing with a very high base price range (similar to cloves in EU4) and the cloves would be found in the far moluccas and Coromandel coast and drive gameplay for the spice trade routes.

Similarly Vanilla, Chile peppers and Cocoa can be their own thing and drive colonization of the new World.

EDIT: Saffron could be in a very few locations of persia, kashmir valley, andalusia and so on...
How about kola nuts in west africa?
 
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How about kola nuts in west africa?
They are seeds of the Cola plant. They also had a fairly minor economic role outside of West Africa until the 1800s, so they'd be best served by being in the least sought-after group. I'd say they're a seed spice, if they are shown to have enough of an economic impact to actually be the main export of a location.

(Edit: This is if they have to be in the category of spice at all, which I don't think they do - see my comment below)
 
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They are seeds of the Cola plant. They also had a fairly minor economic role outside of West Africa until the 1800s, so they'd be best served by being in the least sought-after group. I'd say they're a seed spice, if they are shown to have enough of an economic impact to actually be the main export of a location.
So for example cardamom, coriander seeds, cumin or sesame would be of less value because they were not much requested across the old world I guess? /s

Or maybe creating the West african category of spices would solve the issue: not sought-after by so many cultures, especially outside of africa.
 
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Given the ENORMOUS amount of islands, it's time to give a hint about peace deals.... Will we be able to get islands out of a peace deal even if we don't occupy it or do we have to island hopp the whole world
 
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So for example cardamom, coriander seeds, cumin or sesame would be of less value because they were not much requested across the old world I guess? /s

Or maybe creating the West african category of spices would solve the issue: not sought-after by so many cultures, especially outside of africa.
Honestly I don't think the Kola nut was traded enough to be represented by a good and they don't really fit the definition of a spice in either usage, expense or trade importance. (I was really answering that if it had to be a spice, that's what it would be in that categorization - which I should have made clearer) I could be proven wrong about its suitability as a spice or good if someone can dig up some information about it being a major economic player globally, and staple import. There are thousands of crops not being represented due to not being globally traded, and I'd much sooner something like cassava be represented in game than Kola nuts.

That said, a regional spice system totally misses any granularity as both the highest and lowest valued spices in a region would be one good and share a price despite really not having the same demand. Something particularly egregious in Indonesia and India where both fairly common and highly valuable spices would be under a single umbrella, making it no different to having one spice, so far as the region is concerned.

For example, if you play in Indonesia with a regional spice system, owning the spice nodes of the Moluccas with the incredibly valuable nutmeg and cloves would have exactly the same value potential as the same number of regions growing a much less valuable spice. Using a typed spice system will allow for differentiation in price and value even within those regions.

It's also a lot more goods than a spice type system per the above suggestion. At that point it would be better to just represent the most important spices individually and as the Developers have mentioned, they want it abstracted into as few goods as possible - something I agree with for the most part. I think three spices gives enough granularity in price and demand while not making it too complex to use mechanically for things that cost spices.

The best African sourced spice I can think of, especially for the period is melegueta pepper, which does fit the fruit-spice category perfectly, allowing African regions compete for the pepper trade as it did historically. It seems to have been the pepper of choice for quite a long time, particularly in Italy, Portugal and Spain and gave the Grain Coast its name. (It's also called the Grain of Paradise, if you're wondering why.)

I think this is getting fairly off topic for the region, though.
 
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Lesser Sunda Islands Cultural and Religious Groupings and Suggestions for Minorities:

All groupings have been made based on glottolog entries and classifications, given how many cultural divergences in game are based on linguistic differences. All additions were made on the basis that either, they were a significantly large enough group that they should be represented, or that they were divergent enough to warrant their own culture and religion. Given that there is little to nothing on the cultural and religious demographics in 1337 (which I am assuming are more or less similar given the popularity of ethno-religions in undeveloped and isolated places with many people groups), I am using my best guess based on their general historical location as well as how many people live there now compared to other areas in the lesser sunda islands (poor method, but it's all there is, used citypopulation.de for population capacity).

The main point of this post is to provide possible groupings and a bit of a cultural and religious overhaul to the Lesser Sunda Islands. They are all included except for the Selayar islands, and that is simply because they are culturally closer to the people of Makassar than those of the rest of the islands.

Yellow means a new culture + religion (unless specified otherwise, or devs don't have enough information for them, which is fair)
Red means a removal of both the culture and religion

Timor-Barbar/Barbar:
Rotenese
Atoni
Tetum
Wetarese
Helong (large minority in kupang) (relatively culturally and linguistically divergent from Rotenese)

Central Timor:
Mambai
Temak-Tukudede (decent size minority in balibo) (relatively distinct from Mambai)
Welaun (small minority in laran) (relatively distinct from Mambai)


Note: central timor and timor-barbar should not be combined, despite the naming convention these two groups are quite different.

Timor-Alor-Pantar:
Fataluku
Alor-Pantar (large minority in bungabali) (very different from surrounding cultures)
Bunak (decent size minority in laran) (very different from surrounding cultures)


Note: If you're looking for macro areas as well, TAP falls far more into a new guinean group than an austronesian one.

Bali-Sasak-Sumbawa (all of these are Hindu in religion):
Balinese
Sasak
Sumbawa

Note: Could be further divided to have a sasak-sumbawa group as opposed to a bali group, but that is unnecessary as these cultures were in far more contact with each other than basically all of the other ones on this list.

Bima:
Bima (+ majority in dompu)
Dompu (removed as a culture and religion) (couldn’t find any evidence of its existence as a people group)

Sangar:
Sangar (minority in dompu) (heavily divergent from the Bima-Lembata group)


Flores-Sumba-Hawu:
Sumba (Marapu should be isolated from the other religions in a “marapu” branch, but culturally they are pretty closely linked) (- majority in sabu)
Manggarai
Lio
Hawu (majority in sabu) (divergent enough from Sumba to be considered its own culture, though it should probably share the Marapu religion)
Dhao (small minority in kupang) (heavily divergent from all languages in its direct vicinity)


Flores-Lembata/Lembata:
Sikka (should be spelled sika)
Lamaholot
Alor (should be alorese)
Adonara (decent size minority in lamakera) (relatively divergent from the rest of the flores-lembata group)
Kedang (decent size minority in lamakera) (likely a large enough group in numbers that it should be represented)

Tambora:
Tambora (decent size minority in Dompu) (the only attested pre-austronesian language that survived long enough to be recorded as existing, although its attestation isn't great, it definitely is extremely different to all the other cultures around it, likely being an isolate or a very heavily divergent papuan language)


Edit:
I cannot see the cultures of Yamdena, so I am going to do them below

In the Sangliar Dol location, it should be a
Selaru (Timor-Barbar group)* majority with a decent Tanimbar (Tanimbar-Bonberai group, group is more present in west papua) minority. While in Yamdena it should be pretty much entirely Tanimbar (a combo between the closely related Yamdena and Fordata).

*Selaru could be wrapped into Wetarese, but it would probably make more sense for it to be distinct considering its isolation.
 
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just a small kinda unrelated question:

will new cultures and languages spawn in game as the game progresses? For example if you were to conquer Indonesia and form a new empire, will a new pan national culture spawn in?

(other examples being unifying Germany or Italy or Iberia)

same thing for assimilation, will assimilate a new culture modify your old one?

For example, the Dutch conquer Essex, accept Essex citizens, after centuries a new "Anglo - Dutch" culture will spawn in that belongs in both the English and the German culture group
 
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I wonder if there would be a very small Chinese pop after minorities have been added. While the modern Peranakan/Baba Nonya were mostly Chinese who arrived during the 15-17th century, the earliest record of Chinese settlements in the Malay archipelago dates back the 10th century (Albeit in very small and closed communities).
How the game will simulate the arrival of Chinese pops during the Ming dynasty is also interesting, considering one of the enabling conditions was the Ming dynasty establishing tributary relations on the Malay peninsula and archipelago.
 
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