Tinto Maps #28 - 29th of November 2024 - North America

[beauxhemia]

As somebody from Chicago, i'm surprised to see such low location density in Great Lakes region compared to east coast, i'd expect europe level density there. why does Checagou produce sand when i've been taught since primary school it was a WETLAND

I also grew up in the Checagou location and second this. It (and other locations around the Great Lakes) should be Wetlands instead of Flatlands. To this day, smart people don't build full basements there

Checagou and Kankakee should have their resources swapped: Kankakee is the location of the Indiana Dunes, and the soil around Checagou is far more clay than sand. I'd also argue for making Checagou produce Stone, as there's good limestone near to the surface in the area, though I'm not sure if it was mined prior to the game's end date.

 

[Burkey123]

I generally agree with population of North America, I was talking about the whole of the Americas not just North America though I do think places such as California should have a higher population. Places such as the Amazon had much higher populations at this time, so while I wouldn’t put the population as high as number at contact which my sources suggest were around 40-50 million, I would say around 35-40 million across both continents would make sense. In terms of settled nations I do think that there also should be some Hohokam states, as the culture was at a high point with cities and large canal networks and many other hallmarks of centralised nations. I’m also having the same problems with sources which is annoying as I have a few pages worth of academic articles on these subjects. Also have you read the book 1491 it’s a companion book to 1493.

I would agree with your population numbers but I would lean to the lower end as there would be growth from now until colonization. I do agree that Central America and the Andes should have decently higher population than everywhere else. Looking into the Hohokam sources I would have to agree with you. They seem to the best case for another settled country on the map. I have not read 1491, but I would like to. I have been to busy with college to sit down and read it.

 

[Deleted user]

I would agree with your population numbers but I would lean to the lower end as there would be growth from now until colonization. I do agree that Central America and the Andes should have decently higher population than everywhere else. Looking into the Hohokam sources I would have to agree with you. They seem to the best case for another settled country on the map. I have not read 1491, but I would like to. I have been to busy with college to sit down and read it.

I would also put it at the lower end at this time especially due to high levels of population growth in Mesoamerica and the Andes within empires such as the Aztec, Inca and Purepecha. The book 1491 also agrees with scholars that put it around there and so do most of my sources so I would agree with you on that.

 

[Agricola20]

I am so bold and arrogant. Literally nobody in this thread is saying states that looked a certain way in 1837 didn't actually look like that in 1837.

Yes, there are.

To quote a comment on page 5; Also, many of those state borders wouldn't even be established until after the game's timeframe.

The commenter struck the comment after someone else replied with a map of the US in 1836 showing that the state borders, were in fact, established pre-1837 (props to them for leaving the comment up and owning up to the mistake).

There are other comments with questionable understandings of borders in 1837 too. Another comment on page 5 explained that straight borders were not used in Africa because they were post-1837, and the shown straight borders in the Americas were used because they existed prior to 1837. The comment received 20 dislikes.

 

[Sanguine Caesar]

Not sure if somebody mentioned this already, but one thing to note about the "Western Ontario" area is that the region it covers is more conventionally referred to as Southern Ontario. Otherwise I am very impressed by this map and cannot wait to play once the game releases!

 

[korandder]

Not sure if somebody mentioned this already, but one thing to note about the "Western Ontario" area is that the region it covers is more conventionally referred to as Southern Ontario. Otherwise I am very impressed by this map and cannot wait to play once the game releases!

As someone from British Columbia I was always a bit confused that the University of Western Ontario was in London, Ontario and not say Thunder Bay.

 

[Sirbab]

What's the absolute earliest a nation like Portugal or England could start colonizing the new world? I seem to recall it's gated by tech right?

 

[Agricola20]

I try not to jump to the least charitable possible interpretation of a single sentence (or in this case reaction) someone says.

...unless you're critiquing what I say, at which point you nit-pick everything to hell and back. Accusing someone of straw-manning you after making a comment that you knew may not have been communicated clearly is not charitable at all.

I don't think you're charitable as much as you're argumentative against any of my points, which you then apply excessive charity to the opposing point.

 

[Ekyman]

Since many of the most recognized place names in the Pacific Northwest didn't exist until after the end of the game (including, most notably, Seattle, Tacoma, Portland, Everett, Olympia, Victoria, and Vancouver BC), here are some possible dynamic name options for English and Spanish that are appropriate to the game's period. These are mostly names given by Spanish and English explorers, since most European settlements didn't come until later, but some of these are names of towns today.

For the English names I've tried to pick ones that are at least somewhat recognizable to modern players (those familiar with the area at least), and though many of the names were originally names of water features I've tried to pick ones that don't sound too watery (so a general preference for "Port" over "Sound" and "Canal", since "Port X" was historically regularly adopted as the name for towns). For the Spanish names that was less possible as there are fewer options in the first place and fewer Spanish names were retained long-term.

Name on map	English name	Spanish name	Notes
Makah	Cape Flattery	Bahía de Núñez Gaona	English name by Cook 1778, Spanish name by Quimper 1790 - the Spanish actually tried to build a fort here, but abandoned the project
S'Klallam	Port Angeles or Port Townshend	Puerto de los Ángelos	"Angeles" name by de Eliza 1791, "Townshend" (original spelling is with the 'h') by Vancouver 1792. Both named for natural ports, both are also towns of the same name today.
Twana	Port Orchard		Named by Vancouver 1792. Originally for a natural port, now also a town.
Chi Ke Lis	Gray's Harbor		Named by Vancouver 1792, originally had the apostrophe but it was removed at some point. If a non-human-name name is preferred you can use Gray's name of Bullfinch Harbor from the same year. Originally for the natural harbor, now also a town.
Clatsop	Astoria	Ensenada de Asunción	Fort Astoria founded in 1811, named after a John Jacob Astor. Still exists as a town. Not the first European name in the area (f. ex. there's Cape Disappointment by Meares in 1788) but the first name for a settlement AFAIK, which I know you prefer. Spanish name by de Heceta 1775
Multnomah	Vancouver		Fort Vancouver founded in 1824-25 by the HBC, named after the explorer. Still exists as a city.
Suquamish	Nisqually		Fort Nisqually founded in 1832 by the HBC, named after a native tribe. No longer a town by this name, but the tribe still exists and has a reservation in the area.
Sah-ku-mehu	Port Gardner		Not really any perfect choice here I can think of. Name by Vancouver. Now has quite a narrow definition but Vancouver used it to name the entire protected bay. Alternatives, also from Vancouver, could be Whidbey (but that's just the island) or Port Susan (but I think that's smaller than Port Gardner) or Possession Sound (but that might be too watery).
Skagit	Bellingham or Skagit		The modern town of Bellingham straddles the border of this location and the more northern one, but the name was originally for Bellingham Bay, which is mostly covered by this location. Named by Vancouver 1792. Alternatively it can retain the name Skagit, which exists to this day as the name of a county and a valley.
Lbaq'temish (I think that's what it says?)	San Juan or San Juan Islands	San Juan or Archipiélago de San Juan	Named by de Eliza 1791, retained by Vancouver. A little complicated because the San Juan Islands aren't the only thing in this location, but they're by far the most notable so I think it fits.
Saanich		Puerto de Cordova	Name by Quimper 1790, given to what is now called Esquimalt Harbour. Not sure of an English name from before the game ends.
Yuquot	Nootka	Santa Cruz de Nuca	Spanish name is their settlement in the area, named by Martinez in 1778. Nootka named by Cook in 1778, seemingly not meant to be official but quickly overtook his official recommendation.
Ucluelet		Alberni	Named by de Eliza. Originally "Canal de Alberni" for the canal which starts here, which was later renamed to an inlet also called Alberni. The name's still in use today for the inlet and a town but I'm not familiar with the area to say if it has the primacy to also be the English name or not.
Komoks	Point Chatham		Name by Vancouver. Seems to have switched word order at some point but this is the order on Vancouver's map.
Tanakteuk	Port Neville		Name by Vancouver
Whonnock or Nuxwsa'aq	Langley		Fort Langley was founded in 1827 by the HBC, named for Thomas Langley. Still exists as a town. It seems to straddle the border of these two locations so could be the name for either one.

I'm also gonna reiterate my comment from the Mongolia/Manchuria/Siberia thread that the "Pacific North" sea area should be renamed to "North Pacific," which is the standard name for that area and also sounds better in English.

 

[Sirbab]

Regarding raw goods in North America, I'm a little concerned about the apparent lack of lumber and stone near the coast. Early colonization looks like it might require imports of wood from the old world, which seems very very backwards. Lumber doesn't look present until you get to like the Appalachians, which won't be available for extraction until at least a decade or two from colonization. This makes me nervous in general about the one rgo per province rule, I feel like all provinces with some wood should be able to produce wood, like how all provinces can produce some amount of food (which I read in a previous dev comment). What are your thoughts on this issue?
It's possible I missed a province or two, but this also extends to other things like coal and iron, as it seems like disconnected areas or small nations without access to a big market will struggle massively in other contexts like satisfaction of pops.

 

[darkice_y]

(regarding the pnw)
id like to see more granularity on the locations, seeing the entire head of the columbia is just one location is weird and doesnt represent the actual landscape and access perhaps as well as it could

theres also no wastelands throughout the mountains, which i do think should be there and instead include the mountain passes (snoqualmie, stevens, white)

also i believe the granularity is significantly worse than australia and australia is just as barren as na, so.........

 

[nyetflix2]

I think that there should be some centralised states in Arizona to represent the Hohokam culture which was in its classic period at the start of the game. The culture had permanent settlements and large water canals. The fac the region has so little development is a massive oversight. Also like many others here I think that there is a lack of centralised states and development in North America.

Permanent settlements and agriculture alone do not a full fledged state make, that's more the criteria to be an SoP. Any details you could share about their government system, social hierarchy, taxation systems etc?

 

[nyetflix2]

Biggest thing that stands out to me is that there's no Diné/Navajo? I might be missing them, but they appear to have been merged with the Hopi, which doesn't seem correct

For the Southern California region, I have some rough suggestions:
View attachment 1223679

Spoiler: Chumash Province (4+ Locations)

• Pismu
  • San Luis Obispo
  • Chumash; Fish
• Mikiw (or Kalawašaq/Lumpo'o)
  • La Purísima Mission; Mission Santa Inez
  • Chumash; Fish
• Syuxtun
  • Santa Barbara
  • Chumash; Fur (otters)
• Humaliwo
  • Malibu; Mission San Buenaventura
  • Chumash; Fish
• Tataviam location could go here, or in Tovaangar, or in Mojave
  • The Santa Clarita Valley
  • Tataviam culture: Fruit, Fiber crops?
  • For an actual village name, could go Tochonanga, Chaguayanga, or Mapipinga
  • There should be a gap in the wasteland between Hometwoli and Tataviam to represent the Tejon Pass
• Limuw (probably too small)
  • The Northern Channel Islands
  • Chumash; Pearls (abalone)

Spoiler: Tovaangar Province (4+ Locations)

• Pasheeknga
  • The San Fernando Valley; Mission San Fernando Rey de España
  • Tongva; Lumber? (Noted to have many oaks); said to be marshy, forested
• Yaanga
  • Los Angeles; San Gabriel Mission
  • Tongva; fiber crops? said to be marshy, forested
• Puvunga
  • A sacred spring site for the Tongva, Acjachemen, and Chumash
  • Long Beach Area
  • Tongva; Fish
• Kuukamonga
  • Santa Ana Basin Area
  • Tongva; Wild Game
• Pimuu'nga (probably too small)
  • The Southern Channel Islands
  • Tongva; Pearls (Abalone)

Spoiler: Avii Hanupach (San Jacinto Mountains) Province (4 Locations)

• Putuidem
  • Southern Orange County; Mission San Juan Capistrano
  • Acjachemen; Wild Game
• Qée'ish
  • Northern San Diego County; Mission San Luis Rey de Francia
  • Payómkawichum; Wild Game
• Kosa'aay
  • San Diego area
  • Kumeyaay; Fish? Wild Game?
• Séc-he
  • The Coachella Valley area
  • Taxliswet; Fruit or Fiber Crops (both uses of the California Palm)

Spoiler: Ha 'ša ai (Laguna Salada) Province (3 Locations)

• 'Iitekat
  • Tecate; Tijuana Area
  • Kumeyaay; Fish?
• Jhlumúk or Pa-tai
  • Ensenada
  • Kumeyaay; Fish
• Awkwaala (TYPO: should be Akwa'ala)
  • Misión San Vicente Ferrer
  • Paipai; Wild Game?

Also, I think Kuksu stretches too far south; the Tongva, Payomkawichum, and Acjachemem seemed to share a faith that included Chinigchinix/Quaoar; and the Chumash, Kumeyaay and Tongva all used Datura in their religious practices - I've seen the term "Datura Cult" before used in reference to this, but I'm not sure if that terminology has changed

The Datura cult seems to also be referred to as Toloache, which I think is the Nahuatl-derived Spanish word for that plant.

The Diné are actually around Colorado/the front range on this map, which is accurate to early Spanish descriptions of the "Querechos". Not sure of the exact dates of Navajo migrations off hand, but I remember it more or less adding up when I looked into this after the religion TT dropped.

 

[korandder]

Since many of the most recognized place names in the Pacific Northwest didn't exist until after the end of the game (including, most notably, Seattle, Tacoma, Portland, Everett, Olympia, Victoria, and Vancouver BC), here are some possible dynamic name options for English and Spanish that are appropriate to the game's period. These are mostly names given by Spanish and English explorers, since most European settlements didn't come until later, but some of these are names of towns today.

For the English names I've tried to pick ones that are at least somewhat recognizable to modern players (those familiar with the area at least), and though many of the names were originally names of water features I've tried to pick ones that don't sound too watery (so a general preference for "Port" over "Sound" and "Canal", since "Port X" was historically regularly adopted as the name for towns). For the Spanish names that was less possible as there are fewer options in the first place and fewer Spanish names were retained long-term.

Name on map	English name	Spanish name	Notes
Makah	Cape Flattery	Bahía de Núñez Gaona	English name by Cook 1778, Spanish name by Quimper 1790 - the Spanish actually tried to build a fort here, but abandoned the project
S'Klallam	Port Angeles or Port Townshend	Puerto de los Ángelos	"Angeles" name by de Eliza 1791, "Townshend" (original spelling is with the 'h') by Vancouver 1792. Both named for natural ports, both are also towns of the same name today.
Twana	Port Orchard		Named by Vancouver 1792. Originally for a natural port, now also a town.
Chi Ke Lis	Gray's Harbor		Named by Vancouver 1792, originally had the apostrophe but it was removed at some point. If a non-human-name name is preferred you can use Gray's name of Bullfinch Harbor from the same year. Originally for the natural harbor, now also a town.
Clatsop	Astoria	Ensenada de Asunción	Fort Astoria founded in 1811, named after a John Jacob Astor. Still exists as a town. Not the first European name in the area (f. ex. there's Cape Disappointment by Meares in 1788) but the first name for a settlement AFAIK, which I know you prefer. Spanish name by de Heceta 1775
Multnomah	Vancouver		Fort Vancouver founded in 1824-25 by the HBC, named after the explorer. Still exists as a city.
Suquamish	Nisqually		Fort Nisqually founded in 1832 by the HBC, named after a native tribe. No longer a town by this name, but the tribe still exists and has a reservation in the area.
Sah-ku-mehu	Port Gardner		Not really any perfect choice here I can think of. Name by Vancouver. Now has quite a narrow definition but Vancouver used it to name the entire protected bay. Alternatives, also from Vancouver, could be Whidbey (but that's just the island) or Port Susan (but I think that's smaller than Port Gardner) or Possession Sound (but that might be too watery).
Skagit	Bellingham or Skagit		The modern town of Bellingham straddles the border of this location and the more northern one, but the name was originally for Bellingham Bay, which is mostly covered by this location. Named by Vancouver 1792. Alternatively it can retain the name Skagit, which exists to this day as the name of a county and a valley.
Lbaq'temish (I think that's what it says?)	San Juan or San Juan Islands	San Juan or Archipiélago de San Juan	Named by de Eliza 1791, retained by Vancouver. A little complicated because the San Juan Islands aren't the only thing in this location, but they're by far the most notable so I think it fits.
Saanich		Puerto de Cordova	Name by Quimper 1790, given to what is now called Esquimalt Harbour. Not sure of an English name from before the game ends.
Yuquot	Nootka	Santa Cruz de Nuca	Spanish name is their settlement in the area, named by Martinez in 1778. Nootka named by Cook in 1778, seemingly not meant to be official but quickly overtook his official recommendation.
Ucluelet		Alberni	Named by de Eliza. Originally "Canal de Alberni" for the canal which starts here, which was later renamed to an inlet also called Alberni. The name's still in use today for the inlet and a town but I'm not familiar with the area to say if it has the primacy to also be the English name or not.
Komoks	Point Chatham		Name by Vancouver. Seems to have switched word order at some point but this is the order on Vancouver's map.
Tanakteuk	Port Neville		Name by Vancouver
Whonnock or Nuxwsa'aq	Langley		Fort Langley was founded in 1827 by the HBC, named for Thomas Langley. Still exists as a town. It seems to straddle the border of these two locations so could be the name for either one.

I'm also gonna reiterate my comment from the Mongolia/Manchuria/Siberia thread that the "Pacific North" sea area should be renamed to "North Pacific," which is the standard name for that area and also sounds better in English.

Outside of a few fur trading posts there was not much in the way of white settlement in the areas around the Salish Sea until the 1840s and 1850s so I would argue using names from that period are fine.

Fort Victoria was established in 1843 so I would argue that makes a good name for Saanich given that the city of Victoria dominates the location today (even though the modern day District of Saanich has more people living in it that the City of Victoria proper).

An issue with the Yuquot location is the boarder between the Maaqtsiis and Yuquot locations runs through Nootka Sound with the village of Yuquot (Cook's Friendly Cove) being on the Maaqtsiis side of the divide. Another issue is the name Maaqtsiis which I could not any reference to. There is a Maaqtusiis (or Marktosis) though which is a village in the Yuquot location.

Alberni would be the appropriate English name for the Ucluelet location given that Port Alberni is the largest settlement today and the regional district (the rough equivalent of a county in British Columbia) is called Alberni-Clayoquot (Clayoquot being in the Yuquot location). A Spanish and English name for the Yuquot location could be Tofino since the town of Tofino is the largest and most well known in the location and since the town gets its name from Tofino Inlet, named by the Spanish in 1792.

I would shift the bourders between Maaqtsiis and Yuquot a bit to the south-east to include the eastern shore of Yuquot. One possible renaming would be to call the newly enlarged Maaqtsiis location Mowachaht and the previous Yuquot as Ahousaht, both after signifigant first nations in the location.

Point Chatham was only ever a lighthouse. Campbell River is the largest settlement in the K'omoks location but that name dates from the 1850s. Confusingly the name K'omoks as anglicised to Comox is in European settlement associated with the town of Comox and the Comox Valley but those are in the Pentlach location. The Hudson Bay Company was using the name Komoux for the present day Comox Valley as early as 1837. The city of Courtney, across the Courtney river from the town of Comox is the largest settlement today in the Pentlach location but the name of the river is from the 1840s and first white settlement was not until the 1860s.

Fort Langley is the period approperate British settlement name for Whonnock but it would get overshaddowed first by New Westminster in 1858 which would in turn be overshaddowed by Vancouver.

Stz'uminus would be anglicised to Chemainus which is the name of a town in the Stz'uminus location but the city of Nanaimo (an anglicisation of the Snuneymuxw First Nation) is older and larger so I would go with Nanaimo. The Spanish called what was to become Nanaimo harbour Bocas de Winthuysen when they first sailed through the area in 1792.

 

[adgsituation]

I'm glad people are starting to mention the great disparity between modern population estimates and game representation. Most modern estimates seem to hover around 50-60 million people throughout the Americas at 1492, Denevan being the most notable probably. Imo the game should aim to hit at least 40-50 million people around European (at least those with endemic diseases (looking at you Iceland and Greenland )) contact. What this means for a starting population I'm not entirely sure, however I'd be shocked if the population would over double from the current 20 million to get to more accurate measures.

I would also like more Mississippian chiefdoms represented as settled, even if there is a slight anachronism for the categorization within reason (50-100 years or so).

I am also interested in how the diseases will be represented throughout the Americas. Will the diseases themselves be the only notable tax on the population, accounting for the full 80-95% reduction, or will the catastrophic side effects (lack of workers for food production -> famine, great instability -> "internal" conflict, external exploitation -> conquest, servitude/slavery leading to worse living conditions ) be represented, having some means of mitigation if stability is maintained. This may be a question for future tinto talks going into disease mechanics and "flavor" (sounds a bit uncomfortable to call this flavor, but I guess that's what you'd call it in this context), however.

 

[Ekyman]

Outside of a few fur trading posts there was not much in the way of white settlement in the areas around the Salish Sea until the 1840s and 1850s so I would argue using names from that period are fine.

It's difficult because some of the names I used have never been anything but minor geographical points (e.g. Point Chatham, Port Neville) , and some locations I'm not sure of any good contemporary options. At the same time I'd really rather not see markedly anachronistic names like Seattle or Vancouver BC.

I have more leeway if there's no good options, but something like Vancouver BC has a perfectly good in-timeline option in Langley (was a settlement, is still a settlement today, is recognizable to people familiar with the area) which IMO means there's no reason to go anachronistic.

An issue with the Yuquot location is the boarder between the Maaqtsiis and Yuquot locations runs through Nootka Sound with the village of Yuquot (Cook's Friendly Cove) being on the Maaqtsiis side of the divide. Another issue is the name Maaqtsiis which I could not any reference to. There is a Maaqtusiis (or Marktosis) though which is a village in the Yuquot location.

I would shift the bourders between Maaqtsiis and Yuquot a bit to the south-east to include the eastern shore of Yuquot. One possible renaming would be to call the newly enlarged Maaqtsiis location Mowachaht and the previous Yuquot as Ahousaht, both after signifigant first nations in the location.

Ooh yeah, I was looking at the wrong inlet for Nootka, those are some awkward borders for colonial naming.

 

[Demetrios]

Permanent settlements and agriculture alone do not a full fledged state make, that's more the criteria to be an SoP. Any details you could share about their government system, social hierarchy, taxation systems etc?

That's not going to be available for any pre-contact society that had ceased to exist before said contact.

However, the Hohokam created huge irrigation systems that had individual canals that went on for dozens of miles and with many branches. That requires a state or states of significant size and centralized political power. You're not going to dig a canal into lands you don't own, and you won't be allowed to extend a canal from a neighbor state as that would be stealing their water, which is obviously a closely-guarded commodity here in the Sonoran Desert. The Hohokam canal system was the largest and most complex in the entire Western Hemisphere before European contact, and its sophistication is such that the Phoenix area still uses those some of those same irrigation canals up to the present day.

 

[korandder]

It's difficult because some of the names I used have never been anything but minor geographical points (e.g. Point Chatham, Port Neville) , and some locations I'm not sure of any good contemporary options. At the same time I'd really rather not see markedly anachronistic names like Seattle or Vancouver BC.

I have more leeway if there's no good options, but something like Vancouver BC has a perfectly good in-timeline option in Langley (was a settlement, is still a settlement today, is recognizable to people familiar with the area) which IMO means there's no reason to go anachronistic.


Ooh yeah, I was looking at the wrong inlet for Nootka, those are some awkward borders for colonial naming.

Seattle I feel is the more defensible name between it and Vancouver given that the name Seattle comes from 1850s from the first wave of white settlement in the area and become established as the name of the settlement relatively quickly (1853 I believe). The name Vancouver comes much later in the 1880s after there had been a number of white settlements in what is now known as the Lower Mainland for decades and the Vancouver townsite had gone through a couple names before becoming Vancouver (Gastown 1867-1870, Granville 1870-1886). Vancouver's importance in the area also only came with the railway in 1887; New Westminster was the older and more important city until the railway.

 

[GastonEstBonne]

This channel by a Navajo Elder says that within their oral tradition the Navajo arrived about 2,000 years ago from somewhere east of the Mississippi. He also talks a lot about historical events within their oral tradition that would predate 1337. Take it as you will.

 

[Orangechrisy]

The Datura cult seems to also be referred to as Toloache, which I think is the Nahuatl-derived Spanish word for that plant.

That'd just be the same as calling it Datura, both foreign words for the plant, but Datura Cult is more common in how the religious system is called. But at that point then it could be called Momoy, since that's the Chumash word for both the plant and for a god/whatever you call them. https://escholarship.org/uc/item/37r1g44r