Tinto Maps #28 - 29th of November 2024 - North America

[Tahami Tsunami]

I'm overjoyed that my suggestions for Cahokia's borders were added, it's beautiful and looks perfect!

Of course this is still early access which means there's plenty of development and feedback to still go through (just look at Lambert's video to see no settlements in Cahokia and Mesoamerica's take on The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword's setting!) so I'm optimistic that new locations and new countries are around the corner!

A pleasant surprise is this screenshot on Steam which shows the Yamasee people from Georgia! I wonder if this is a hopeful indicator that the devs are making great progress with SoP gameplay to make them playable? This would be great news for a playable Powhatan, Wampanoag, etc.! The models are also looking great!

 

[AntarcticRanger]

I'm glad things are moving in the right direction from the glimpses all these new videos show.

I still can't get over how they made all of San Diego country one location just like eu4 though. San Diego county is 23 times larger than Andorra, and twice the population density in the present. I really hope they subdive it (and generally the Southwest) a bunch.

 

[arkh4ngelsk]

Hopefully it's not too late, but the official announcement reminded me that I wanted to follow up on my earlier post covering East and Central Texas and offer a few suggestions for South Texas as well.

First - I have been wondering about the Rio Grande/Rio Bravo. I overlaid the location map with a regular map and looking at the location boundaries, it appears that most of them follow the river, but there's also a few weird spots where the locations cross both sides of the river (mainly the Yeme, Esto'k Gna, and Gueiquesales locations on the current map). Meanwhile for the area map, most of South Texas north of the river appears to be combined with the rest of the modern state. This is, in my opinion, completely backwards - the location borders should follow the river, but it makes much more sense to put Texas south of the Nueces River in the same area as Tamaulipas. The river wasn't a meaningful border in any sense during the game's timeframe (indigenous people north and south of the river were very similar, during the Spanish and Mexican periods it was never really an administrative border, and even after Texas independence they never actually controlled the territory) but it is both a natural and modern border, so it satisfies both sides of that debate.

My redrawn locations try to more accurately follow the river, but I haven't increased the density much. I've divided these locations up into three provinces:
1. Cacaxtles - taken from the name of the people, already a province
2. Ganapetuan - the name for the Rio Grande among several Coahuiltecan peoples (source)
3. Dacate - indigenous name for this region of the Hill Country

Essentially all Spanish names provided are from early land grants unless otherwise indicated, with information mostly taken from the Handbook of Texas. Since Anglophone settlement of this region didn't really begin until post-1845, I have not included any English names. Indigenous names are taken mainly from the Handbook as well as from the book Historic Native Peoples of Texas by William Foster.

CACAXTLES PROVINCE

Location Name	Notes
1. Pamoque Santa Petronila (Sp.)	I chose Pamoque over Piguique because it seems that the Piguique may have been a subdivision of the Pamoque, but either name is probably fine, and sources seem to agree on a location around modern Corpus Christi for both.
2. Arbadao	Name taken from the people living in the area around Cabeza de Vaca's visit to the prickly pear grounds, which seems to have been around the modern city of Alice. Due to the prickly pear association it should have fruit.
3. Cacaxtles El Paisano (Sp.)	El Paisano was a Spanish land grant. Los Olmos is an alternative Spanish name.
4. Malaguita San Juan Carricitos (Sp.)	This is the only name I can clearly find of a group living on Padre Island. This location should have sand, as in addition to being coastal it also falls in the South Texas Sand Sheet.

GANAPETUAN PROVINCE
Most of these locations should have Esto'k Gna culture.

Location Name	Notes
5. Tugumlepem Rancho Santa Cruz (Sp.)
6. Sepinpacam San Luisito (Sp.)	This location holds La Sal del Rey and La Sal Vieja, and the name Sepinpacam derives from their connection to these salt lakes. This location should absolutely have salt.
7. Concuguyapem Carnestolendas (Sp.)
8. Apion Laredo (Sp.)	It was more difficult to find an indigenous name for this location than others, which is odd given that it's where Laredo is, but it seems a group called the Apion may have lived around the area.

DACATE PROVINCE
There doesn't appear to have been any European settlement of any significance in this area during the time period, so there's far less Spanish names available.

Location Name	Notes
9. Cachopostal	Changed from the plural in the current map.
10. Aguapalam
11. Pataguo Paso de Francia (Sp.)	Paso de Francia was a notable crossing of the Rio Grande.
12. Pulacuam
13. Cibolo	While some sources place the Cibolo west of the Pecos River, Foster suggests they probably lived near modern Del Rio.

This is also essentially the only part of North(ern) America where we've seen population figures (via the Central America TM), so I also have some suggestions in that regard. First: You can clearly see the modern Mexican-American border here. You shouldn't be able to. There was not a meaningful difference in population density between the northern and southern banks of the Rio Grande at this point. Any larger agricultural settlements were far to the south in La Huasteca or to the north in the Caddo region.

I do think the populations in Tamaulipas might be slightly too high, but the populations for South Texas are far too low. The lowest population estimate of the region - not the most accurate, the minimum - is around 2,000, and the current version doesn't even seem to hit that threshold (source for the population figure, it also notes 100,000 as the maximum but that is definitely too high). The location of Esto'k Gna appears to have a population of only 122, despite being large enough to contain several villages in a culture where the average village population size was somewhere between 120-300. South Texas shouldn't be extremely densely populated, but it definitely needs to be increased, especially if 90% of the population is going to be wiped out when Europeans show up.

 

[ParaCube]

Was inspired to contribute some feedback after seeing the announcement. These are ordered based on importance and ease of addition, and focused on the Virginia area. A lot of this information comes from sources collected in virginiaplaces . org

1. Renames
For immersion and consistency, here some renames I'd suggest:
a. Societies of Pops
Nottoway People -> Cheroenhaka People. Nottoway likely comes from the algonquin word for poisonous snake. Chereonhaka is also used by the modern day tribe, see their website). You used the term for the location, not sure why you didn't for the tag.
Tutelo People -> Yesang People. Wikipedia says that Tutelo is an exonym from the Iroquois. Couldn't find another source, maybe you can.
Tsenacommacah People -> Powhatan People. My understanding is Tsenacommacah makes up the homeland of all of the Virginian tidewater native people. Would be better served as a formable nation or international organization.
Accomacke People -> Accomac People. Minor spelling change, not that big of a deal. I've just seen Accomac a lot more. Accomacke, with the ck and silent e, just makes me think of antiquated English spelling.
b. Provinces
The province of Doeg doesn't include the main settlement of the Doeg people in modern Mason neck, (recorded as Tauxement in Nova Virginiae Tabvla) which is currently in the location of Patawomeck. I'd suggest either adjusting the location borders or changing the name of the province.
c. Locations
Anacostia -> Nacotchtank (Anacostia is a Europeanization of the name for the tribe inhabiting DC. Nacotchtank is much closer to the original.)
Nanzatico -> Nantaughtacund - Nanzatico is an Anglicized name of a tribe that was formed out of several one that had collapsed in population in the 17th century. Nantaughtacund is both the origin of the name and the name of one of the tribes that eventually would make up the Nanzatico.
Chesapeake -> Chesepioc - I think a more phonetic spelling without a silent e makes the names more immersive, so I'd favor that.
Waqua ->Tonnatorah - Couldn't find anything on Waqua, besides a small creek. If you have information with it, then keep it. The second largest settlement of the Cheroenhaka was in that location, at Tonnatorah, however.
Cheroenhaka and Cherohenaka - I think these refer to the same place? Cheroenhaka, the one in Virginia is right, though. I don't know enough about the Cherohenaka place in North Carolina. Perhaps double check that. This one is for you, my dyslexic friends
Appomatox and Appamattuck - Refers to the same thing. I think Appamattuck is the better spelling.
Manassas -> Tauxuntania or Hassuiuga. Whether Manassas has native origins is disputed. It's just as likely that it comes from a Jewish merchant or innkeeper in the area. The Nova Virginiae tabvla gives several settlements of the Manahoac people in the upper Rappahannock that would fit the area well. I would recommend adding the Manahoac as a new society of pops, because right now the Doeg have far more territory than any source I can find says they did.
Teginateo -> Stegara. Can't find where Teginateo comes from, if your sources are confident about its importance, keep it. Stegara is on the Nova Virginiae tabvla as a settlement of the Manahoac people in the headwaters of the Rappahannock.

2. Location properties changes:
Meherrin: If not given their own culture, are most closely related to the Cheroenhaka (Nottoway), and should be given their culture and language. I also think the location is misplaced. It should be south of the Cheroenhaka, in the current location of Wiccacon. That is a huge location and should be split up.
Pawmunkey: One of, if not, the most powerful members of the Powhatan confederacy when the English arrived. Since there already is a location for them, I think they should get a SOP.
Kiskiack - Spanish name: Ajacán, from the real failed Spanish colony there, decades before Jamestown. The location of Chesapeake could be called Santa Maria, after the Spanish name for the Chesapeake bay.
All Chesapeake Bay: At least a 25 natural harbor for being a bay. Plus a few 50s in river harbors like in the Potomac.

3. Bonus
Add The Great Dismal Swamp as a separate location or a wasteland. Famously George Washington tried to drain it, but it failed due to the water not flowing out of the drainage ditches and the soil being poor. It did have a population of Maroons - escaped slaves and native americans, seeking refuge. If a wasteland, would do double duty of breaking up the straight line border between VA and NC.

I am working on a maximum location density Virginia with more substantive changes, but I wanted to get this information out now. Hope this was helpful and not too late!

 

[BrenGren]

If the location borders for Vancouver Island remain as they are, only Saanich should be flatland. The rest should probably be mountains, alongside much of mainland BC that is currently represented as hills. If you look use the terrain map on Google Maps you can clearly see that Vancouver Island is anything but flat.

Arguably Stz'uminus, Pentlach, and K'omoks could also be flatland to represent the Cowichan Valley and the flatter coast along the Strait of Georgia between Nanaimo (or rather Parksville) and Campbell River, but the rest should either be Hills to match how the Coastal Mountains are represented, or Mountains which would be closer to reality.

 

[vinaxel33]

Además, maldita sea, Estados Unidos tiene mejores puertos que Indonesia. ¿De qué se trata eso?

Not even central Mexico or Central America, which were more developed at the time, added more ports. Imagine how unbalanced the game is.

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

It seems like the mechanics for SoPs to become Settled Countries are progressing nicely as seen by the appearance of Capachequi in Lookas et bella's video (

at about the 25:35 mark towards the end of his Castile gameplay).

 

[flashman7870]

There's a lot that's really great about the research the devs have put into putting together a reasonably plausible picture of pre-Columbian North America. There are things that can be quibbled with, but generally it's quite good.

One point which I must take issue with and absolutely think should be changed prior to release is in the name of the Algonquian religion. All Algonquian peoples, aside from those within the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex, have been attributed the religion Midew. This makes absolutely no sense.

The Midewiwin is a sacred institution which is largely, though not entirely, peculiar to the Central Algonquian peoples, most especially the Anishinaabe of the Great Lakes. To say the Midewiwin is or was the religion of the Anishinaabe would be questionable. Even putting aside the loaded concept of "religion", the Midewiwin is a medicine society that exists within a broader framework of Anishinaabe and Algonquian spirituality. It's not even the only spiritual society within Anishinaabe culture. It's also not entirely clear to what degree the beliefs and practices of the Midewiwin are pre- or post-contact. That said, there's no doubt that at least some portion of the practice is ancient, as indicated by archaeology, informed speculation, and traditional accounts. I would further grant that the Midewiwin plays an extremely prominent role and could be argued to exist at the center of Anishinaabe spirituality.

These caveats in mind, I think a reasonable case could be made for the game to call the "'religion" of the Anishinaabe, and perhaps some part of the Cree or Shawnee, Midewiwin at the start date.

What makes absolutely no sense is to use that label for the religion of ALL Algonquians. Midewiwin was a particular spiritual tradition with a particular geography, not some sort of pan-continental religion. While we do find cognate terms for "Mide" in a non-Ashinaabe Algonquian languages, referring to different types of shaman, these are not really comparable to the Midewiwin, which is again very particular. Midewiwin lore and practice does share some commonalities with spiritual beliefs and practice of non-Anishinaabe Algonquians, but this is downstream of their common Algonquian origin, not downstream of a common "Midewiwin" tradition.

I know this might seem like silly semantics, but for a point of comparison, it would be like the map labelling all of Islam, or perhaps even all of Abrahamism, as Senussiya: One particular Sufi tradition, itself a subset of one religious/cultural tradition (Islam), itself a subset of a much larger tradition. It's just terribly misleading.

Now to some degree in this part of the world at this time, some kind of 'wastebasket taxon' is almost inevitable. I understand and expect that. But the name of that wastebasket taxon should not be so horribly misleading!

My alternative suggestion would be to call the pan-Algonquian religion Manitouism. "Manitou" and cognate terms refer to sundry spirits and deities, often of an animistic character, whose stories and powers make up the core of the spiritual world of almost all Algonquian societies, from the Blackfoot to the Croatan. This also includes those cultures where the Midewiwin is present. This name would also parallel the pan-Northern Iroquoian religion the devs have settled on, Orendism. This name is taken from Orenda, which is a North Iroquoian concept largely comparable to the Algonquian concept of the Manitou.

 

[JohnCro]

I must say I am glad devs have added locations to Baffin Island and I have wanted for a while also suggest locations for Ungava peninsula, but I have to thank @Venboven who also mentioned some of these locations. I have just drawn locations for it:

Many of these locations I originally thought would be like Baffin ones, isolated or connected by corridors (white) but then I looked up the settlements and I realised they can be connected by themsleves. It also makes sense as they are more south and I originally underestimated the amount of settlements there. Thoughts @Maxipuchi ? I would like to hear your opinion on this whole area suggestion I have been gradually improving and expanding on.

I also think that corridor next to Inukjuak may even be part of the location itself

Edit: also the impassable tile of Ungava:

(Could also be named Ungava peninsula or something else like Nunavik "Great land")

Edit: I also fixed the suggested location of Clyde River, it is more south than I innitially thought, my bad!

 

[Spence9999]

I know you cant go into extreme detail on every part of the map, but I have to say as a native Seattleite and an EU4 player with >2000 hrs, I am very dissapointed that the province i'm from is so butchered in terms of shape and naming. If I could see one thing change from current builds to final build, I would love to see this slightly change so it reflects reality slightly better.

Here is the area I'm referencing:

Specifically the province called Lushootseed.

I understand some maps not made by locals tend to gloss over the specific features of this area, which I'm assuming was used as a reference, but the area actually looks a lot more like this:

You sort of got the Kitsap peninsula and the some of the islands, which is honestly nice to see, but you can clear see that the economic center and powerhouse of the entire region, Seattle, was not clearly detailed as it is on this map.

Specifically Lake Washington is not illustrated at all (unlike many other medium sized lakes I see on the map).

Part of the reason I think this is important is that the reason Seattle became such an important hub, was because of its unique geography!!

Here is a more zoomed in map of Seattle showing just how unique this geography is as compared to the current province:

I understand everyone wants specific things for their own region, but I have to advocate for some more details here.

As you can see in this map, Seattle is the terminus for many major rivers in Western Washington with the Dumamish River, as well as many others into Lake Washington itself.

Seattle also has one of the best natural harbors in the world, providing an easy shipping a trade location.

And my personal favorite fact is that Seattle is built on an Isthmus, just like Constantinople. Its actually just behind modern day Istanbul in terms of cities built on Isthmus'.

The fact that it is built on an Isthmus not only means it has the same trade and tolling advantages, but also the same defensive advantage that Constantinople famously had. This is only bolstered by Seattle famously being built on a hilly terrain further adding to its natural defensiveness (Another fun fact, Seattle was built on seven hills much like Rome, and this was used very consciously in its early days to model itself on Rome as a recruitment tactic).

None of these features that make Seattle such a powerhouse of geography and the capital of the Pacific Northwest are detailed at all in the current province map mode. Unfortunately it just becomes a blob on the side of the map.

Would really love to see it slightly more detailed along the lines of the third picture.

One other smaller pet peeve, is that the province next to Seattle is named "Cascadia" and Seattle is named "Lushootseed". I absolutely love Cascadia being included in the game, but it very much belongs on the province of Seattle, where the idea originates, and where its proposed capital is meant to be.

Right now Cascadia, seems to cover Tacoma, and the two peninsulas. While both of these regions may fall into the broader concept of Cascadia (The entire bio-region that falls west of the Cascade Mountain Range), if we are going to make it into a province, that province should absolutely be Seattle.

Switching the names here would be enough, and the province currently named "Cascadia" could be named "Salish" (Covers the broader group of tribes in the area), "Tahoma" (After the tribe occupying the biggest city today) or really any other of the hundreds of tribes here like "NIsqually".

 

[korandder]

While not as egregious as Cascadia, Salish also is too general a term for a province given how wide spread Salish languages are.

Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Salishan.svg

I earlier suggested Tsamosan for the province currently called Cascadia as it is a grouping of Salish languages (in dark blue in the map above) that roughly corresponds to the province.

 

[Spence9999]

While not as egregious as Cascadia, Salish also is too general a term for a province given how wide spread Salish languages are.

View attachment 1303090


I earlier suggested Tsamosan for the province currently called Cascadia as it is a grouping of Salish languages (in dark blue in the map above) that roughly corresponds to the province.

Agreed. Both of these are better than Cascadia (though I do have a preference for Tahoma). Still holding out for Seattle to get the honor of Cascadia though.

 

[JohnCro]

After a stunning reasearch by @Venboven and their suggestion for locations and corridors we managed to make a full on suggestion for locations of Nunavut which seems to be empty when reading this tinto maps

Read about their research:

Greenland should have more colonizable locations

Here is what Greenland looks like in EU5 now: I've gone ahead and highlighted the provinces currently present in-game, featuring the 3 medieval Nordic settlements of Greenland: The Western, Middle, and Eastern Settlements. This is a good start...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Greenland should have more colonizable locations

Here is what Greenland looks like in EU5 now: I've gone ahead and highlighted the provinces currently present in-game, featuring the 3 medieval Nordic settlements of Greenland: The Western, Middle, and Eastern Settlements. This is a good start...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Here I drew the locaton they suggested in the style location map was shown in and added some more location to fully cover the Hudson Bay shore:

 

[Ekyman]

Agreed. Both of these are better than Cascadia (though I do have a preference for Tahoma). Still holding out for Seattle to get the honor of Cascadia though.

I don’t want the Seattle location or province to be named Cascadia either. That’s just not what the word means.

Cascadia should be the name for the area or it shouldn’t be used, IMO.

 

[Spence9999]

I don’t want the Seattle location or province to be named Cascadia either. That’s just not what the word means.

Cascadia should be the name for the area or it shouldn’t be used, IMO.

This is fair, but Im not sure how area, or region mapping works in EU5. Is it the same as in EU4? If so then it should just be the same as the Cascadia Colonial region

 

[Ekyman]

This is fair, but Im not sure how area, or region mapping works in EU5. Is it the same as in EU4? If so then it should just be the same as the Cascadia Colonial region

From small to large its location -> province -> area. You can see all three in the main post in this thread. Areas are generally smaller than EU4 colonial regions, and I don’t think there’s a separate colonial region system in EU5.

 

[zeruosi]

I'm sorry to say that you didn't adopt the suggestion of the majority. In the voting post I sent out in February, the option of natural boundaries had an absolute majority of support, while only a minority supported colonial boundaries.

 

[King_Potat]

View attachment 1304361View attachment 1304362I'm sorry to say that you didn't adopt the suggestion of the majority. In the voting post I sent out in February, the option of natural boundaries had an absolute majority of support, while only a minority supported colonial boundaries.

They might have just not done it yet. I say this because the only thing that appears to have been modified so far is the political situation and the locations of Baffin island, and nothing else. Given the amount of quality feedback given on it so far, I'd say they still have work to do but are probably waiting until they "finish" the old world.

 

[zeruosi]

They might have just not done it yet. I say this because the only thing that appears to have been modified so far is the political situation and the locations of Baffin island, and nothing else. Given the amount of quality feedback given on it do far, I'd say they still have work to do but are probably waiting until they "finish" the old world.

Well, I'll keep an eye on their work. I hope there won't be a large number of errors in the Chinese feedback a few weeks later.

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

Hey @ScienceNinja7 , you mentioned before that Etowah was a paramount chiefdom over two smaller polities: one upstream (with no clear historical equivalent) and the other downstream near Rome, Georgia (where Ulibahali was at the time of Spanish contact).

If you don't mind, I was wondering what info you have on that or where you read it? Ulibahali makes sense as one subject and I'd like to see or read up on where the upstream subject was located!