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Hello everybody, and welcome to Tinto Maps, the happy Fridays for map lovers! Today, we will be looking at Central America, which includes the Caribbean. Before we start, I want to introduce you @RaulTrullenque , the only member of our Content Design team who had not yet gone public, and who worked really hard on the maps and content of the Central American and South American regions.
And now let’s get started without further ado!
Countries
Welcome to the Mesoamerican Thunder Dome! This area is characterized by its numerous Altepetl, more or less comparable to city-states. Most of them are ruled in 1337 by peoples of Nahua origin, something that you may see much more clearly in the culture map. The biggest power in this moment is the Empire of P’urhépecherio, though, founded by the Purepecha people. In any case, you may notice that there’s a lot of detail in this area, including a tiny Nahua settlement recently founded on an island over Lake Texcoco, Tenochtitlan. This is the first time in a PDX GSG that we have the island itself present on the map, although the location covers some more land over the lake coast, to make it playable. Finally, we also have the Mayan polities of the Postclassic Period, of which Cocom, with its capital Màayapáan, was the most important, along with others, such as K’iche’ and its capital Q’umarkaj.
SoPs
On the outskirts of the Mesoamerican polities, there are plenty of peoples organized on different ways. To the north, we have the ones that populate the area known as Aridoamerica, which were collectively termed by the Nahua as ‘Chichimeca’. We also have plenty of societies close to the Mayan lands and the Isthmus. And, finally, the Taíno people populate some of the biggest islands in the Caribbean.
Locations
Plenty of locations here! I just want no note that the Darien Gap is an impassable wasteland, which means that any army trying to cross from modern Panama and Colombia will need transport ships to be able to do it.
Provinces
Areas
Terrain
A very diverse region! Most of it is covered by Tropical Jungles and Forests, but Sierra Madre Occidental and Oriental make for very specific conditions in the Mexican Altiplano, which are not only visible in the Topography map but also in the climate and vegetation of the area.
Development
The most developed regions in Mesoamerica are the Valley of Mexico and the Mayan coastline.
Natural Harbors
There are some good ports in the Caribbean, no surprise that most of them would later become important cities in the Colonial Period.
Culture
Tons of cultures!
Language
And also languages! The first two maps are the Dominant Languages per location, while the third is the Court Languages one. The dark blue language is ‘Totozoquean’, as it is not so easily readable (something we have to change).
Religions
This map is today in a more advanced state, as we have merged plenty of cultural religions into regional groupings. Of these, Tonalism, Nahua, and Mayan are part of the Tonalist religious groups, while the others are part of the Folk American group (a regional split of the former ‘Animist’ group). Nahua and Mayan have their different mechanics, which we’ll talk about in future Tinto Talks. Let us know what do you think of this design and any suggestions about the religious grouping!
Raw Materials
Maize is king in Mesoamerica, although there are plenty of other resources, including juicy Gold and Silver. Obsidian is not a separate resource, as it’s too regional-specific, so it’s included under the Gem coverage, but we have ways to represent it in-game; for instance, there’s a production method to produce Weaponry using Gems as an input.
Markets
A couple of bugs were reported while taking the screenshot of this map! But well, you can see that Azcapotzalco, Màayapáan, and Noh Petén (capital of the Itza people) are the most important ones.
Population
We have solved a couple of issues with the pop editor, and this week this map is in a decent state to be shown! Yay! Total numbers in the region are roughly 8.6M pops, distributed this way:
523K in Aridoamerica (includes the lands to the North-West of the Purepecha Empire)
6.947M in Mesoamerica (including North-Western Mayan lands)
1.003M in Central America (including South-Eastern Mayan lands)
151K in the Caribbean Islands
And that’s all for today! We hope you enjoyed these meaty maps! Next week we will be taking a look at the Levant Feedback, on Monday 16th, and South America, on Friday 20th! Cheers!
As a former team member of the Mesomerica Universalis mod for eu4 this political map brings me back to the good old times ( i recognize most of those shapes and names!) If you guys need any help with the flags and youre making them as glyphs i have about 200 sitting on my hardrive from the unreleased version of the mod. Most are historical, some recreated by myself based on the nahua and Mixtec names.
I am quite happy with the location and political maps overall, although some areas still need some work. In particular, the Maya region needs to be brought up more to the quality, accuracy and granularity of Central + Western Mexico, and the Purepecha need to be split up politically. The cultural map needs some more work.
Constructive criticism is more than welcome on all my feedback, especially if you have sources or specific reasons/arguments!
I recommend that the devs consult this map for potential locations. This site is also a good source for the colonial period.
I do have some locations to propose:
Capital R stands for rump location - these keep the names of the original location they were formed on top of. For example, both of the westernmost Rs should be called Tonala.
When you see a slash between two names for a location, that's the prehispanic versus colonial name.
Yes, I skipped a few letters without realizing, sorry.
x: Cerquin/Gracias - mostly separated out because the borders of Chorti look too far east on the map, but it was also the mountain fort of Lempira
y:
z: Mita - capital of a prehispanic Pipil-Nahua state, though I suspect the Pipiles would probably be only a minority of the population amid large Pokomam and possibly Xinca populations
Manto could also be added in the west of Olancho (the Ollallko location). Left it out because I felt it wasn't necessary, but it's a possibility.
Other location proposals:
Colotlan out of the eastern appendage of Tepecan, between Tlaltenango and Yamanquex
Jamiltepec (Mixtec name Casandoo) out of the western half of Tututepec
Is this level of location density absolutely necessary? No. This is a collection of potential locations that the devs can use to adjust the density of the region to what they feel is appropriate. I made a note of some of the most important ones (Mixco, Chinautla, Coban, Hocaba, Uxmal, Saklamakhal, Belize). I also do feel that Guatemala could use more density to properly portray its political/cultural divisions, and Chiapas and Tabasco as well in order to make the transition from a high density region (Central Mexico) to presumably lower density regions down south a bit more smooth.
Temascaltepec and Zacazonapan, in the southwest of the state of Mexico, should be redrawn so that the former is to the east and the latter to the west, to match their real locations.
Anachronistic locations:
These Classic Maya sites were abandoned centuries before the start date. They should ideally be renamed/replaced, but for most of them I haven't found nearby towns that date back before the conquest yet, so I get the dilemma. I do understand that suitable replacements might be hard or impossible to find, and that having something there is better than nothing. I mostly just want you guys to be aware of this in designing the region.
True, in some cases a population may have remained in the area and maintained memory of the city, but they didn't exist as such in the way that they did during the Classic. I mainly have a problem with it when they are used instead of towns that are known to have been occupied during the time period.
Tonina*
Ak'e (Bonampak)*
Dzibilnocac
Hochob
Nadzca'an
Dzibanche
Xpuhil
Yax Mutal (Tikal)
Ceibal
Ixtutz*
Izapa*
Chunchucmil*
Pusilha*
Uxwitza*
Pa'Chan (El Zotz)
Wak Kab'nal (Naranjo)
Xunantunich*
Nohmul
Tzunu'un (El Pilar)
Nim Li Punit*
Possibly Chakanbakan, Xpaicheil, Chama*, Baak (Palenque) as well
* = I do have a proposed replacement, check my location and rename suggestions
Location name changes:
Note: all the hispanized spellings will of course make great Castillian dynamic names.
Calixtlahuaca -> Ixtlahuaca (Calixtlahuaca being right next to Toluca/Tollohcan anyways)
Teotenango -> Teotenanco (hispanized to Nahuatl spelling)
Huejotzingo -> Huexotzinco (hispanized to Nahuatl spelling)
Pachuca -> Pachyo(h)can (hispanized to Nahuatl spelling)
Gulf Coast
Xalacingo -> Xalacinco (hispanized to Nahuatl spelling)
Awilisapan -> Ahuilizapan (to be more in line with the orthography used elsewhere in Mexico)
Oaxaca
Tilatongo -> Tillantonco (hispanized to Nahuatl spelling; otherwise you need the first n)
Putla -> Poctlan (hispanized to Nahuatl spelling)
Yucunudahui -> Yucuñudahui (missing diacritic)
Etla -> Etlan (hispanized to Nahuatl spelling)
Azoyu -> Ometepec, to match the OLM that rules this tag. Azoyu might be a good Castillian dynamic name.
Lower Central America
Cholollan -> Choluteca (don't think this town/territory was ever actually called Cholollan, it's simply theorized that the Chorotega are called that way because they possibly originated from Cholula in central Mexico centuries before)
Joanagastega -> Guaxenicos
Xinantecatl -> Tezoatega (Xinantecatl presumably refers to the modern town of Chinandega, but Tezoatega was the name of this area back then)
Okotlalpan -> Ukutal (using the Nicarao/Nawat name. Ocotlalpan would probably be a great Nahuatl dynamic name here.)
Quauhcapolca -> Cuauhcapolca (qu/cu are both acceptable but cu is more mainstream for Nahuatl in general)
Teguciguata -> Texiguat
Tekohtsinkalpan -> Tecohtzincalpan (to be more in line with the orthography used elsewhere in the region)
Maya region
Both Tonalas -> Tonallan (hispanized to Nahuatl spelling)
Chocohtan -> Cupilco, which was the chief town of the area in prehispanic times (source).
Tacotalpa -> Zahuatan, which was the chief town of the area in prehispanic times (source), most likely located near modern Nuevo Progreso. In the colonial period it became irrelevant and Tacotalpa was much more important.
Xicalango -> Xicallanco (hispanized to Nahuatl spelling)
Izapa -> Huehuetan or Tapachula (Izapa was abandoned by 1200 CE). Huehuetan was the more important town in prehispanic and early colonial times, from what I have read.
Tonina -> Ocosingo (Tonina was long abandoned by now)
Job'el -> Zinacantan (San Cristobal, aka Job'el, was rather irrelevant in prehispanic times compared to the nearby Zinacantan, if it existed at all. Ciudad Real (the colonial name of San Cristobal) would make a fantastic Castillian dynamic name here though.)
Sentzunat -> Itzalku (the head of one of the four primary divisions (Taketzakayu) of Kuskatan and the larger city in prehispanic times. Sonsonate would be more important in colonial times)
Cihuatehuacan -> Chalchuapa (the larger city in prehispanic times. Santa Ana would be more important in colonial times)
Tepetitan -> Cojutepeque (the head of one of the four primary divisions (Taketzakayu) of Kuskatan and the larger city in prehispanic times. San Vicente became the more important settlement in colonial times)
Zacatecoluca -> Nonualco (the head of one of the four primary divisions (Taketzakayu) of Kuskatan and the larger city in prehispanic times)
Chunchucmil -> Maxcanú (Chunchucmil was abandoned by the game's time frame. Maxcanu was a recorded town both in prehispanic and colonial times)
Yukalpeten -> Hunucmá (this appears to be a pretty vague name referring to several things, one of which being a port city in the location founded in modern times. Hunucma was a recorded prehispanic settlement, and a chief town in the colonial era).
Cahyup -> Kajyub/Cahyub/Kahyub (mispelling, it's a b not p but the c/k and h/j are interchangeable)
Q'umarkaj -> Pismachi (Q'umarkaj hadn't technically been founded yet. There could be a flavor event to change the name to Q'umarkaj around 1400.
Quauhtemalan -> Cuauhtemallan (need the double l, qu/cu are both acceptable but cu is more mainstream for Nahuatl in general)
Xochitepek -> Kakol Kiej (the K'iche' name of Mazatenango - I don't think Suchitepequez existed in the prehispanic era, but Mazatenango did. Mazatenanco would make a good Nahuatl dynamic name. Otherwise, I'd respell it to Xochitepec to be in line with Nahuatl orthography elsewhere in the region).
Itskwintlan -> Itzcuintlan (to be more in line with the orthography used elswhere in the region)
Okotepek -> Ocotepec (to be more in line with the orthography used elsewhere in the region)
Chiquimulja -> Chiquimula (not sure what the j is doing there)
Cuauhchinango -> Cuauhchinanco (hispanized to Nahuatl spelling)
Zahuatlan -> Zinacantán (Zahuatan being located in the modern state of Tabasco, thus outside the province)
I found the translations into various indigenous languages on wikipedia, either the English or Spanish version.
I don't know the corresponding locations, but I'd of course also like to see Castillian dynamic naming for the historical cities of Northern Mexico, such as Monterrey, Saltillo, Zacatecas, Durango, Monclova, Aguascalientes, Léon, Guanajuato, etc.
The following are some of the rivers that spurred trade in Mesoamerica:
Usumacinta (Tabasco, Chiapas)
Grijalva (Tabasco, Chiapas)
Candelaria (Campeche)
Motagua (Guatemala)
Hondo (Belize-Mexico border)
Ulua (western Honduras)
Balsas (Guerrero, Puebla)
Papaloapan (southern Veracruz)
Coatzacoalcos (southern Veracruz)
There are some issues with the culture map, despite being an improvement from EU4. Here is my version:
I can't say for certain all the minorities I show here would really be above 10%, but most of them probably are and they shouldn't be negligible.
Minorities not on map, definitely <10%:
A Mixtec or Popoloca barrio in Teloloapan
A Zapotec village in Azoyu, and a couple in Cuicatlan
the small undocumented languages of the Costa Chica, a significant minority in Azoyu
Probably some remaining Chatino (Zapotec) pops in Tututepec, as they predate the Mixtecs there
Likewise, possibly some remaining Chorotega in Cuauhcapolca, who had been forced out by the Nicarao around 1200
A village or two's worth of Xinca pops in Sonsonate/Izalco
Minorities shown, probably not much more than 10% if that:
Otomi and Chichimeca Jonaz/Pame in Tlacopan (Tenochtitlan)
Otomi and Popoloca in Teotihuacan
Corobici (Rama/Maleku) in Nicoya
Chatino/Zapotec in Tututepec
Chorotega in Cuauhcapolca
Chiapanec in Soconusco
Chuchures (Putun/Pipil/Miskito) in Panama
Pame in Hidalgo
Nahuas in Yucucui, Ixtlan?
Merchant diasporas, not on map:
Mixtec merchant barrios in Tehuantepec, Coatzacoalcos, major towns in Central Mexico (assumedly Azcapotzalco, Cholula, Texcoco, Huejotzingo, Xochimilco, Chalco, Atlixco, etc). Possibly also Guatemala
Oaxacan (mainly Mixtec, some Zapotec), Guatemalan (K’iche’), Chiapan (Tzotzil) merchants in Soconusco
Totonac merchants in Tulancingo
Kiche, Tzotzil, Yucatec, eastern Nahua merchants in Coatzacoalco, Xicalango, Chanputun
Putun and/or Kiche Maya merchants in Escuintla, Guazacapan, El Salvador, Honduras, Pacific Nicaragua. Escuintla, Guazacapan and El Salvador would probably be more Kiche, the rest more Putun.
Putun, Yucatec Maya, Pipil merchants in Nito (source: Fowler's Cultural Evolution of Ancient Nahua Civilizations)
Possibly Cuitlatec and Nahua artisans in the Patzcuaro basin, though these may only have been imported after the Purepecha expansion
Minorities that are ruling classes:
Nahuas in Metztitlan, Teotitlan del Valle, southern Veracruz, southern Jalisco, Chontal/Tuxtec area of Guerrero, possibly Acalan/Itzamkanac
Pipil in Honduras, including Papayeca
Mixtecs in central valleys of Oaxaca - ruling classes might not have been fully dominated by Mixtecs, but the Mixtec presence here was related to nobles marrying into the local power structure, and bringing their servants along with them
Locations that are roughly evenly split between cultures:
I'd support splitting off Sayultec/Cuyutec (in Jalisco), "Olmec" (in Veracruz, plus minorities in Tabasco, Campeche and Chiapas) and Pochutec (on the southern Oaxacan coast) from the Nahua culture. Maybe Cohuixca (in Guerrero) as well. I'd also support a Popoluca culture for the Mixe-Zoque cultures of Veracruz and Tabasco - but I chose to not include it here, in order to show which Popoluca groups are more similar to the Mixe, and which are more similar to the Zoque.
I chose Tuxtec as the name for Chontal de Guerrero and Tequistlatec for Chontal de Oaxaca, to avoid confusion. Tiam and Cochin are two of many possible names for the catch-all non-Nahua culture of Jalisco. Also note that I chose Chumbia for that catch-all culture around Zacatula, because it was the language of the most relevant settlement.
I'm sure that the Maya regions also need more cultural blending, but I don't know specifics so I let it be.
Culture Labels/Categories
There's no real reason for Toltec or Tlaxcaltec to be separate cultures from Nahua per se, in my opinion. However, I would support splitting the Nahua culture into central, eastern and western variants, as although the Pipil are considered to have developed their own language by modern standards, it was still more of a continuum and the eastern variants of Nahuatl showed more similarities to the Nawat of the Pipil. Nahuas of different areas developed different cultures and sometimes took influences from neighboring non-Nahua cultures. Western Nahua could be neatly divided into Teco in the southern half and Cuyuteco in the north. There could also be the Nahuatl-speaking Coixca culture in Guerrero.
Tonala culture should be renamed to Tecuexe. Tonala is a settlement, Tecuexe is the people.
Otomanguean is a very diverse language family that includes several cultures you've already split off. That's like choosing one random culture to be called "Dravidian" and still having all the other Dravidian cultures. It NEEDS to be renamed to Otomi, or Hñähñu as I noticed you guys are trying to do autonyms.
If that Otomanguean bit on the Costa Chica is meant to be Amuzgo, make that a new culture too please. If you don't want to make it a separate culture, at least group it with Mixtec instead. The Amuzgos should be Tonalist, not Chichimec religion.
I don't think Iztachichimeca were ethnically distinct from Guamares, nor Sauzas from Guachichiles?
Wixarika shouldn't have an S on the end.
Ikoot needs an s, to make it Ikoots.
Zapotec(a) is mispelled as Zapochteca.
Endonyms
Zoque: O'de püt
Otomi: Hñähñu/Hñähño/Ñuhu/Ñhato/Ñuhmu - Hñähñu is the most common of these
Zapotec: Bën za
Lenca: Lepa Wiran
Matagalpa: Kakawira
Distribution of cultures
In general, I highly suggest consulting these maps here - though the "Hokaltecan" family should be disregarded, as well as the Xincan-Lencan connection.
Mam culture is in the wrong place, they are located in western Guatemala, not Chiapas. Kaqchikel should also be immediately to the west of Guatemala City, not on the coastal plain. Both are also true for the political map.
The Q'eqchi had not yet expanded that much, and much of that area was occupied by various Ch'ol speaking groups, namely the Acala, Manche, and Lacandon Ch'ol. This is of course also true for the boundaries of their SoP. They should be present in the current Chama location.
Quauhtemallan should be mixed Kaqchikel-Pokom(am) culture in its current shape.
Sentzunat should be Pipil culture with a large Pokomam minority (Ahuachapan and Atiquizaya being Pokomam majority), and only a village or two's worth of Xinca pops.
Metapan should be Pipil culture with a large Chorti minority.
I don't think the Putun stretched that far north, beyond Chakan Putun it should just be normal (Yucatec) Maaya culture. Same deal with Chactemal. If they were present, they were so as minorities.
Mopans were not that widespread. Most of their territory in Belize should just be Maaya culture.
The Nahua block east of the Huastec should be replaced by Pame/Xi'oi.
Temascaltepec and Zacazonapan should be Matlatzinca (source: Handbook)
Tehuantepec (and to a lesser extent Zanatepec) should already be majority Zapotec mixed with Ikoots/Huave.
Guiigu yudxi should be majority Zapotec and its biggest minority would be Chontal de Oaxaca, with basically no Ikoots.
Chimalapan should be majority Zoque.
Nochixtlan, Yucundaa, Yucunudahui, Yohualtepec, Huajuapan, Silacayoapam should definitely be Ñuù savi (Mixtec), not Zapotec/Nahua respectively.
On the other hand, Sola, Tonameca, Juchatengo, and Coatlan are Mixtec when they should definitely be Zapotec. Manialtepec is Chatino, but if you don't want to add a Chatino culture, Zapotec is the best choice as it is its closest relative. Amoltepec should probably be mixed Mixtec-Zapotec. The kingdom of Tututepec had a multiethnic population, and in fact the Mixtec were very recent arrivals in the area.
Awilisapan and Zongolica should probably be (eastern) Nahua culture. Zongolica is a majority Nahua region today. Here's their dialect.
Ixtacamaxtitlan should be majority Nahua. Neighboring Tetela, Zacatlan and Xalapa should be about half and half Totonac-Nahua.
Tepic, Sentispac, Acaponeta, and "Santa maria oro" should be Cora or maybe Huichol/Wixarika culture. Tepic in its current shape could retain a Nahua minority.
Purepecha culture probably shouldn't stretch quite so north yet (though it looks like Zinapecuaro could be Purepecha, perhaps with a Guamar or Otomi minority):
Teguciguata in southeastern Honduras should be Matagalpa culture.
Missing cultures:
Given the culture gore in Oceania and South America, I think it's reasonable to expect most of these to make it in. Endonyms in parentheses.
Chiapanec in the central plains of Chiapas (will work well as a brother culture and shared language with Chorotega)
Tapachultec, which should be the dominant culture along the entirety of the Chiapas coast (source: The Linguistics of Southeast Chiapas, Mexico, Lyle Campbell, section Tapachultec) and even into what are now the locations of Xelahuh and Xochitepek, and possibly Zanatepec in Oaxaca. Huehuetec would probably be a more accurate name, because Huehuetan was the regional capital and more important than Tapachula for most of the period.
Poqomam and Poqomchi', who hadn't quite developed as separate groups yet in 1337, thus they can be a single "Poqom" culture
Amuzgo (Nn'anncue) in Azoyu. Should definitely not be Otomi culture.
Chatino (kitse cha'tnio) between Tututepec and Huatulco. I would be okay with this being lumped into Zapotec culture, but it really can't be Mixtec/Nuu Savi.
Popoloca (Runixa ngiigua) in Tehuacan, Tecamachalco and Tepexi, and the related Mazatec (Ha Shuta Enima) in Teutila, Ixcatlan, Oxitlan
this is not to be confused with unrelated Mixe-Zoquean languages called Popoluca, which itself might be worth adding as a distinct culture but I could live with them being represented as Zoque and Mixe pops. Either way, they should be the majority in Texistepec, Acayuca (this is the main place where they'd belong to the Mixean branch, not Zoque), Tonala, Iztachacalapan, Atzaccan, Otatitlan, Mixtlan, Tesechoacan, and Cuauhcuetzapaltepec (source, pg. 28-29). But the ruling class throughout this territory would be Nahuas or Nahuaized, except for perhaps Tonala.
Chontal de Oaxaca/Huamelultec in the Huamelula location, with a minority in the "Guiigu yudxi" location to represent the branch in Tequisistlan. Not the most relevant, but I'd say they are more deserving than Huave/Ikoots.
Tlahuica (pjiekak'joo) would be the majority or about even with the Nahuas in Morelos. They are closely related to the Matlatzinca, so just counting them as Matlatzinca would not be a sin.
Subtiaba/Maribio in the Sutiapan location in Nicaragua, but I'd be fine with them being represented as Tlapanec/Me'phaa given that they only migrated ~1200 AD, so they really hadn't diverged much yet. The Sutiapan location should also have many Chorotega pops, but it looks like the Subtiaba would have been a thin majority.
Cuitlatec (Aʔnelgái) in Ajuchitlan, Cutzamala, Cihuatlan, Tetellan, Tecpan. Probably present or majority in Cuitzeo too.
Tepehua around the Huasteca region. This is probably the least necessary culture on this list which is documented/classified. If not added it should be counted as Tutunaku.
Several small unclassified cultures of Guerrero, Jalisco, Michoacan (source: Handbook of Middle American Indians, Vol. 12). Certainly not worth it to include every tiny culture whose affiliation we do not know, but I would support combining them so that we still have to deal with cultural minorities and don't easily get cultural harmony when we conquer these areas. For instance (the first three are much more important than the last two):
fold Chumbia, Tolimec and Pantec into one culture present in Zacatula, Ixtapa and Chucutitlan. Nahuatl was only spoken in Zacatula itself by Tecos, and the surrounding towns spoke these other languages.
fold Tamazultec, Cochin, Tiam, Otomi de Jalisco, Zapoteco de Jalisco and many others into one non-Nahua culture in Jalisco, replacing the Otomanguean/Otomi presence there and expanding to Amollan, Tlamazollan, Sayula, Tochpan, Melahuacan, Tenamaxtlan, Ameca, (and probably also Autlan, Cuautla, plus minorities in Colliman, Tecoman) but still mixed with Nahua populations. It's difficult to say whether the Otomi of Jalisco is related to the "real" Otomi - some researchers speculate so, but there is no evidence, and there is also the question of how they came to be so far away. Perhaps Otomi here could remain the normal Otomi culture, in which case it'd be present in Cuzalapa, Amollan, Colliman, Tecoman.
fold Chontal de Guerrero together with the probably related Tuxtec in Tlachco, Teloloapan, Oztoman, and Tlalcozauhtitlan, mixed with Nahua/Coixca. Also present as a minority in Tetellan and Zompanco.
fold Cintec, Cuauhtec, Ayacaxtec and Huehuetec into one culture in the Costa Chica, to be a smaller minority in Azoyu.
fold together Tepuztec/Tlacotepehua and its neighbors in central Guerrero. This should be about half the population in Cihuatlan, Tecpan, Tixtla and Acapulco - the first two shared with Cuitlatec, the last two with Me'phaa/Tlapanec. They should also be present as a smaller minority in Tetellan. By the late 16th century, Nahuatl was widespread as a trade language in these parts.
Obviously a thorough pass through the entire region is a must, to see where ethnolinguistic boundaries overlap. It'll definitely be present in the Huasteca, the Isthmus of Tehuantepec and southern Veracruz. I'd also check southern Puebla, Costa Chica, and northern/northeastern Guerrero.
For the Huasteca, based on modern distribution, it looks like Metztitlan should have a Nahua minority, Xicotepec and Tollantzinco should have Otomi minorities, and Huayacocotla and Tutotepec should have both Otomi and Tepehua (can be abstracted as Tutunaku) minorities. Tetela and Ixtacamaxtitlan should also get Nahua minorities.
There should be a significant Otomi population in Tizatlan, to represent the Otomi towns of Ixtenco and Huamantla. Looks like the Otomi of Tlaxcala may have been refugees expelled from Xaltocan by Nahuas.
The locations belonging to Tehuantepec should have Zapotec ruling classes.
There should be some Zoque pops in the current Chocohtan location and Mixe pops in Texistepec (plus they should probably be the majority in Acayuca). Alternatively, these could all be grouped under a "Popoluca" culture, which is how they traditionally have been classified and written about it, but linguistically speaking some of these Popoluca are closer to the Mixe while most are closer to the Zoque. I'd prefer a Popoluca culture personally.
This paper has some very interesting content for the southern gulf on pages 28-29, supporting a Mixtec-Nahua mix in Cosamaloapan, a Mixtec/Popoluca/Nahua mix in Mixtlan and Cuauhcuetzpaltepec (referred to as Huaspaltepec), a Popoluca/Nahua mix in Tesechoacan and Otatitlan, and a Mixe/Mixtec/perhaps even Mazatec mix in Xochiapa. Popoluca probably refers to various Mixe-Zoquean languages here, not Oto-Manguean. Page 57 of Chadwick's Olmeca-Xicallanca backs up the Mixtec presence here and also alleges they were in the Mixtequilla region, which is the Puctlan location.
There were significant Nahua populations in many parts of Michoacan (source (pg 10 and 321-23), another source). There were also Chichimeca in the Patzcuaro basin, but it's unclear what precise culture these would be. The first paper also briefly lists some of the many unclassified languages of Michoacan on page 125, and has a useful list of primary and secondary languages at contact by locality on pages 321-23.
According to that first paper above, Nahuas seem to have been significant in:
Maravatio
Tlalpujahua (along with Pame) - though I speculate the Nahuas might have been later settlers following Mexica expansion, so I have left them off my map
Tlazazalca
Guayangareo (along with Guamare. Matlatzinca are probably later arrivals fleeing Mexica conquests)
Jiquilpan (specifically Sayultec)
Xacona (specifically Sayultec)
Tancitaro (specifically Xilotlantzinca)
we can also note the presence of Cocas in Sayula, Pame or Chichimeca Jonaz around Lake Cuitzeo, and Nahua, Chontal, and Tepuztec in Tetellan
Xicalango should get some (eastern) Nahua pops, as the Isla del Carmen seems to have been a Nahua outpost.
The Relaciones Geograficas also attest a Nahua presence on the Guerrero coast (locations of Azoyu and Tecoanapa) alongside the Tlapanec/Me'phaa and Amuzgo. By the same source, there should be Tlapanec minorities in Azoyu (probably more numerous than the Nahuas), and sizeable Amuzgo minorities in Zacatepec and Jicayan.
There should also be some Nicarao in the Garabito location of Costa Rica, as they existed in the town of Bagaces. (source)
The Guatemalan location of Guazacapan and perhaps Nito should get a Pipil minority (source; pg 54, 56). So should Atitlan (source: Handbook Vol 12, pg 307)
There should be some Pipil minorities in Honduras, particularly in Papayeca, Naco, Cururu, Maniani, Nacaome, and Opoa. There's also a case for Ollallko (today's Olancho) but some sites claim the Nahua presence here was due to Mexican pochteca arriving after the start date instead of Pipil. This source provides some details on the distribution of Pipil in Honduras.
Cholollan (today's Choluteca) in Honduras should be a mix between Chorotega and Lenca, the former probably being the larger group. (source; pg 60)
There should be Guanahatabey minorities in the modern Havana and Matanzas provinces.
Naco might have had some small Lenca and Tolupan minorities, but the largest would be the Pipil.
The Chuchures of Panama were described as speaking a distinct language (non-Chibchan) and having migrated from Honduras in canoes. It is speculated they were either Pipil-Nicarao, Chontal Maya, or Miskito (Misumalpan) speakers. Source (pg 70), second source The Legacy of Mesoamerica
A small amount of Huave pops in Nicaragua would be good to represent the Tacacho (source: this book). Here is a map from it that shows their location, and is a good start for minorities of the region in general (you're missing the Cacaopera of El Salvador in the Gotera location, and Joanagastega should be ~33-50% Matagalpa):
Chapter 3 of The Legacy of Mesoamerica (Carmack, Gasco & Gossen) lists some interesting cases of small minorities, mostly merchant communities:
A Chiapanec minority in Soconusco. This is the only one that might pass 10% of the population, I believe.
Mixtec merchant barrios in the major towns of Central Mexico - in 1337, this probably means Azcapotzalco, Cholula, Huejotzingo, among others. Tenochtitlan was probably still pretty humble, but would doubtlessly get its own barrio as it grew. I have a suspicion the Mixtec networks would reach into Chiapas and Guatemala as well, though I have found nothing explicitly mentioning it yet.
Cuitlatec and Nahua artisans/merchants in the core of the Purepecha state, meaning their capital. I could see these not existing yet in 1337, and having been importations following Purepecha conquests.
Yucatec, Nahua, Tzotzil and K'iche' merchants in Coatzacoalco, Xicalango and Chanputun
"Mayan" merchants (my guess is Ch'olan speaking) in Cuzcatlan, Lenca country and Pacific Nicaragua
I do recommend reading through the Handbook of Middle American Indians, Vol. 12 which mentions a lot of smaller cases of cultural minorities and undocumented groups. For instance:
Mixtec barrios were reported in the vicinity of Coatzacoalcos and Tehuantepec (pg 305). I'd imagine they'd be less than 10% of the population in the locations.
There was a Zapotec town called Quahuzapotla in the Azoyu locations, and a couple settlements in the Los Penoles area, corresponding to the location of Cuicatlan (pg 306). This should be less than 10% of the population in the locations.
A possible Mixtec or Popoloca barrio in Teloloapan, and some Mazatec minorities that would fall under the Temascaltepec and Teloloapan locations (pg 312)
Popoloca was reported to be spoken in Teotihuacan (pg 305), but this surely would be a relatively small minority. (second source - this also attests a minor Otomi presence in Teotihuacan). It's not exactly clear whether this was the Oto-Manguean or Mixe-Zoque Popoloca, but the former seems to be a more mainstream view.
That second source also attests Otomi and Chichimec (possibly Jonaz) presence in "Tacuba" (Tlacopan, which is of course under the Tenochtitlan location).
Languages:
I understand that the language map is probably WIP, but the grouping there is egregious.
Maya should not be one language, it should be a few different ones. It should be broken down into (Yucatec) Maya, Huastec, Western (Ch'olan-Tzeltalan and Q'anjobalan) and Eastern (K'ichean and Mamean). These varieties still wouldn't realistically be mutually intelligible as they split up before Christ, but it's a good balance of gameplay and immersion IMO. The more realistic version would have (Yucatec) Maya, Huastecan, Tzeltalan, Ch'olan, Q'anjobalan, K'ichean, and Pokom be separate languages, and most of these would further diversify over the course of the game. You shouldn't use the -an versions in game, that's just to make it clear which groups I'm referring to.
The "Otomanguean" language should be broken into Otomi (covering all the Oto-Pamean languages), Chorotega (including Chiapanec if added), and Amuzgo if added.
Totozoquean (why does it include Mixtec and Zapotec???), Otomanguean, Hokan, Chibchan are all VERY bad languages. Lenca as Misumalpan and Mixtec/Zapotec as Totozoquean, and the very existence of both Totozoquean and Hokan are all conjecture at best or just wrong at worst. Break them down. I am amused that Xinca is the only minor language that is actually independent.
Totozoquean should be broken into Totonac(an), used by Tutunaku and potentially Tepehua, and Mixe-Zoquean, used by Zoque and (if added) Mixe, Tapachultec and Popoluca (which is still too diverse to be historically accurate, but at least there's a clear relationship between them). The Oto-Manguean branches of "Totozoquean", which is a mistake, should be broken into Mixtec, Zapotec, and potentially Popoloca and Chinantec. Ikoots should be a language isolate, called Ombeayiiüts in the language itself and usually referred to as Huave. Oaxaca Chontal would also be a language isolate.
Lenca should be a language isolate.
Yutonahua should be broken down into Piman (used by O'dam, Tepecan, Othama), Cahita (used by Yoreme, Yaqui, Tahue, Acaxee, and perhaps Guasave and Xixime), Corachol (used by Wixarika, Totorame, potentially Cora, and perhaps Zacatecah, Cuachichitl, Irritila), Raramuri (perhaps including Toboso), and Opata. Not sure what to do with Xumani, probably an independent language within Uto-Aztecan.
Hokan should be split into Tolupan (an isolate), Seri (another isolate unless related to Guasave), the Yuman languages, and I'm sure another few branches in California. The cultures currently counted as Hokan-speaking in this region should not retain membership in a Hokan family. Even if they are related, the evidence for which is scant and suspect, they would be very distant and have no conception of that relation.
You counted the non-Taino languages of the Caribbean as Arawakan, which they probably weren't. Macorix and Guanahatabey should be grouped with Warao in the Orinoco delta, and Ciguayo should be grouped with Tolupan. We will never know about their affiliations for sure, but these are our best guesses.
Cueva would be better counted as the Choco language. Source
To my knowledge there's not even any hints as to the affiliation of the Guamare language, but it was most likely either Uto-Aztecan or Oto-Manguean. I marked it as the latter on my map proposal following your example.
As for court languages, Tetzcoco may have used Otomi at this time, but this would change in a couple generations - wikipedia cites "Davies (1980, p.129); Smith (1984, p.170)" for this claim. Kuskatan should also just use Nahuatl, they didn't use any Maya language.
Religion:
It's honestly hard to give feedback on religious distribution before we know mechanics. My most radical sugggestion would be to make the entirety of Mesoamerica practice only one religion (Tonalist), as there was a high degree of cohesiveness throughout the region. While sources often divide beliefs up by ethnolinguistic group, it's sometimes hard to find much detail on exactly how they were different from one another. Major cults such as Quetzalcoatl, Tlaloc and Huehueteotl often transcended ethnicity, despite having different names and slightly different manifestations. Perhaps such cults could be represented by something mechanically similar to EU4's cardinal or religious school systems, so they could have geographic spreads or bases without the need for actual separate religions.
However, within the framework of your current design:
Please adjust religion accordingly when making cultural adjustments I've outlined above. Nahua culture locations shifted to Mixtec culture, should of course get the Tonalist religion and not retain the Nahua religion.
Nicarao should practice the Nahua religion.
Huastecs should not practice the Maya religion or be part of a Maya culture group. They did not form part of the Maya civilization as their migration took place before its formation. Culturally they were more similar to the Totonac. Both the Huastec and Totonac should be Tonalist.
The Otomi should practice the Tonalist religion, not Chichimecah, including in southern Jalisco and in Azoyu.
Ikoot/Huave, Zoque, and Matlatzinca cultures should practice the neutral Tonalist religion, instead of Nahua. They're not Nahua groups by any means.
Xinca culture should also be Tonalist, not Mayan. They aren't Mayan.
Lenca could be folded into the Tonalist religion. They are usually considered a Mesoamerican people, and their mythology has some parallels with other Mesoamerican cultures.
Markets:
The Purepecha should start with their own market in Patzcuaro.
The Kuskatan market should be moved to the Kiche capital, which at this time would be Jakawitz (the modern archaeological site of Chitinamit)
Development:
I think Michoacan and the Guatemalan highlands deserve a bit more development, as these were the other centers of civilization in the region, though Central Mexico is still king. For instance, there was a huge (for the time) city in Michoacan called Angamuco that existed up until European contact. Read about it here, here, here.
Political map:
Some more bright and lively country colors would be nice, instead of the pale pinks, whites, yellows, greens. Jade and reddish-orange were super popular colors in Mesoamerican architecture and murals, would be nice to see them.
I also hope that you guys use as many Mesoamerican city glyphs as possible, instead of making up flags!
The map I mentioned at the beginning of my post is useful for proposing changes to the political map. Green designates kingdoms, yellow confederations, and orange territories. In effect, green should be settled states, orange should usually be SoPs or uncolonized, and yellow could be either settled or SoPs according to judgement.
This map depicts the early 1500s, so two main things were different in 1337:
- the Kowoj should not be in Peten yet, just keep them where you have them
- neither the Aztecs/Mexica nor the Zapotecs should control Soconusco/the Chiapas coast, which should instead be a serious a small independent city-states, soon to be conquered by the K'iche'
Otherwise it's accurate for 1337 to my knowledge. The Lacandon territory might look like an anachronism, but actually it's correct because it's referring to the Lacandon Chol.
In this region, I don't know of any political differences between the 1500s and 1337, so this map should be good.
Missing polities
Cuauhcapolca, Nagarando, Diria, Tezoatega and Mistega should be added in Pacific Nicaragua, at least as SoPs. The Nicarao had standing armies, currency, tribute payment, occupational specialization, and market exchange. They have been judged to have been on the same level state-organization wise as the Chibcha/Muisca of Colombia, and they were developing a state structure at the time of conquest. William Fowler and Constenla Umaña should be productive reading on this topic.
Papayeca in the location of the same name should be at least an SoP, could possibly qualify as a settled state. Their primary culture and ruling class would be Pipil, but the majority of its population would be Pech
The coast of Chiapas should most likely be a series of small city states. They were not controlled by any of the major powers of Guatemala nor Chiapas.
Itskwintlan (Pacific Guatemala) should be an independent Pipil kingdom
Acalan/Tamactun - should be ruled by the merchant class, many of whom may have been Nahuas or Nahuatized.
Xicalanco and Ixtapa-Usumacinta (see This article)
Polity splits
The Purepecha Empire had not yet expanded very much in 1337. Most of Michoacan should still be small city-states, but they should definitely exist and control Tzitzuntzan and Patzcuaro locations, about to if not already conquering the entire Patzcuaro basin.
Yokot'aanob should be broken up into three small statements: Copilco, Potonchan, Zahuatan. This article has some information on it. Here's what it should look like roughly:
Kuskatan should have a couple countries split off: Nonualco/Nonoalco (location of Zacatecoluca) and Cojutepeque (location of Tepetitan), as they would probably wouldn't have been conquered by Kuskatan yet.
The Me'phaa should be split up into OLMs.
Ideally the Lencas would be split into three different entities (Care, Maniani/Sulaco and Manalaca/Popocatepet, the last being the priority as they did not join in Lempira's rebellion). If you create a Cerquin location out of Opoa, that can be separate as well. I would argue for making the Lencas into settled tribal kingdoms instead of SoPs.
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Other political
The Tzotzil, Tzeltal, Ch'ol, Q'anjobal, and Chorti might actually make sense as SoPs, but I'm not insistent upon that.
Like I said, Mam and Kaqchikel are in the wrong place. The former should have its capital of Zaculeu in the current Otzoyá location, and the latter's capital of Iximché in the current Quauhtemallan location.
Not sure what Quauhtemallan is supposed to refer to as a state? AFAIK it's the Nahuatl name for Iximché, the Kaqchikel capital.
Government forms & starting estate privileges
Tlaxcala is commonly described as a republic or a confederation. They were ruled by a council, and each of the four principal cities had its own ruler. Perhaps it would make sense to split Tlaxcala into 4 OLMs in an IO. They were independent with regards to internal affairs, but unifed when it came to war or foreign relations. 3 of the 4 sub-states were hereditary monarchies, but Quiahuiztlan was an elective monarchy. Secession from the confederacy should be a possible result of political conflicts, as that briefly happened during the viceroyal era.
Ah Canul seems to have been a confederation or oligarchy, with a senate.
The Chorti, Tzotzil, Tzeltal, Chol, Qanjobal and Chontal (Yokotaanob), if you're keeping them as settled states, also were not centralized and were instead confederations of many smaller chiefdoms/lordships.
Aztecs developed an advanced administrative bureaucracy through delegation of power, Mixtecs did not.
Mixtecs were perhaps the most stratified society in Mesoamerica, with almost no social mobility. Mixtecs did not have a specialized merchant class, but instead lesser nobility traded on behalf of the rulers. Mixtec artisans were members of the royal families.
Population
I do not have as much expertise as some others in the field of pre-columbian population figures, but I will throw my voice in for a bigger population, allowing us to reach 15-25 million in Mesoamerica by the early 1500s. I am aware that is a large range.
The Legacy of Mesoamerica estimates the following local populations at contact:
Itzamkanac perhaps 10k
Q’umarkaaj perhaps 10-15k
Mayapan 11k
Tzintzuntzan 35k (at its height)
Tonalan (Jalisco) up to 10k
northeastern Belize "well populated"
approximately 200k Tenochtitlan (at its height, obviously)
over 500k Lencas
Trade goods to add
dyes in El Salvador and Oaxaca (añil and cochineal respectively). If not present at start, they could become more important in the colonial period.
Simojovel in Chiapas should produce amber.
Honey in the Maya lowlands, interior Honduras, Jalisco/Colima/Nayarit
I would be fine with distorting the map to make lake Texcoco large enough to allow Tenochtitlan to be an island. It would be very flavorful and unique; gameplay > accuracy.
Will there be events to indicate the emergence of the Miskito people in the nicaragua region? I mean that area lacks both SOPs and landed tags so... I'm a bit confused as to how they might be portrayed? Only the culture is present in the miskito coast from what I can see.
Will there be some reflection of the Columbian Exchange in the resources/raw material available? For example, the reintroducion of horses to the New World?
How does location density in central/southern Mexico and Guatemala compare to, say, the eastern seaboard of the US?
Are you open to increasing location density in any parts of this region?
Are the league of Mayapan and the Triple Alliance IOs?
Will the downfall of the Tepanecs or European contact be situations?
What do the culture groups look like in this region?
How deep are you going with dynamic location names (with local indigenous, Nahuatl, Spanish etc names)? Will it be limited to the most important locations, or you adding it wherever there is information?
I’ll call your attention to the post in my signature, which might be primarily useful for slight revisions to the culture map and working on cultural minorities.
1. Central Mexico is more dense, I'd have to check more in detail for the others.
2. As always, it greatly depends on the feedback we receive and the information available.
3. We have planned to have both, yes.
4. There are three different situations regarding the European arrival to the New World (the 'Treaty of Tordesillas', the 'Great Pestilence', and the 'Columbian Exchange', and some unique mechanics for some of the colonizing powers, beside the generic mechanics. We'll talk about all of them in future Tinto Talks and Tinto Flavor.
5. In replying while commutinf right now, I'll try to reply when I get to the pc later on.
6. Information and spare time availablez we're planning to gather more community feedback regarding that some time in the future.
In memory of the great Mesoamerica Universalis mod for Eu4… I wonder, did you get any help from either that mod or its developers? Iirc they had a big collection of historical sources on mesoamerica that they used for the mod.
Also I think the Mayan languages should be split up a bit more, the language family is about 5000 years old and having a unified "Mayan" language is on a similar level to a unified "Indo-Iranian" language
Welcome to the Mesoamerican Thunder Dome! This area is characterized by its numerous Altepetl, more or less comparable to city-states. Most of them are ruled in 1337 by peoples of Nahua origin, something that you may see much more clearly in the culture map. The biggest power in this moment is the Empire of P’urhépecherio, though, founded by the Purepecha people. In any case, you may notice that there’s a lot of detail in this area, including a tiny Nahua settlement recently founded on an island over Lake Texcoco, Tenochtitlan. This is the first time in a PDX GSG that we have the island itself present on the map, although the location covers some more land over the lake coast, to make it playable. Finally, we also have the Mayan polities of the Postclassic Period, of which Cocom, with its capital Màayapáan, was the most important, along with others, such as K’iche’ and its capital Q’umarkaj.
On the outskirts of the Mesoamerican polities, there are plenty of peoples organized on different ways. To the north, we have the ones that populate the area known as Aridoamerica, which were collectively termed by the Nahua as ‘Chichimeca’. We also have plenty of societies close to the Mayan lands and the Isthmus. And, finally, the Taíno people populate some of the biggest islands in the Caribbean.
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