Tinto Maps #29 - 13th of December 2024 - Central America

[Pavía]

Good to see this region finally!

A few questions and comments mostly from PR:

Since we have three provinces there naming should go like this
Boriken- Puerto Rico
Guaynabo- San Juan
Arasibo- Arecibo
Guaynia- Should Switch to Ponce

Terrain and Vegetation are correct.

1. San Juan doesn't seem to be a max level natural harbor, which is weird. There's a reason Spain built the biggest fort there and not Havana which was always more important economically. The bay was better for sail boats was better protected both from storms and piracy as it was more easily defended.

2. Instead of Maize in PR that region Guaynia was known for producing sea salt.
3. Any additional modifiers we haven't seen yet?

Added most of these suggestions, although I've used 'Guaynía' as the Spanish version of Guaynia, as that was the name of the first settlement founded by Ponce de León before it was destroyed.

 

[SaintDaveUK]

I fink that maize would to have a dark orange color (like 30°, 90% 80% HSV)i f it don't make maize conflict with another good color's.

It looks good. Clashes a bit with copper but I can sort that out.

Also, thumbs up for using HSV like a good one.

 

[matfer13]

It looks good. Clashes a bit with copper but I can sort that out.

View attachment 1231999

Also, thumbs up for using HSV like a good one.

Make copper more reddish, something in between silk and maize

 

[Pavía]

Mesoamerica is home to two of the most important spices in the world, vanilla and chilis, and neither is represented. Vanilla was mostly used to flavor chocolate for the first half of the time period, but by the end of the game it was a hugely valuable spice. Chilis are one of the most successful parts of the Colombian Exchange as well - almost every old world culture adopted and began to use chilis in their cuisine as a spice.

It seems ridiculous to ignore that impact on global trade and cuisine entirely. I'll direct attention to this excellent post by @LordThanatos with some amazing discussions and deep dives into spice production and usage across the world and the time period.

We have this post tracked because it's excellent, I agree with that. We'll adjust as many resources as possible, considering it.

 

[Captain_Leo]

Once again, great job.

I'd like present two more questions/suggestions (me as a simple lover of this Island-Nation):

1) location 19 - North Camaguey looks a tad big, long and snakey. Are there any grounds (geographical, demographical, economical, etc.) to split it up in two locs?

2) Do you place Havana's harbor at the same level as Cienfuegos, Santiago and Guantanamo? I don't know, I may be letting my historical bias shine through, but Havana has imo one of the best natural harbors in the world (...and it "held the keys" to the Gulf of Mexico).

I'm glad to answer.

1) Camaguey as a whole region is, in comparison with other regions of Cuba, the least dense region, and with the exception of the city of Camaguey, the entire province in real life and historically was a long plain field perfect for cattle and horses. Thats why I suggest leaving the North Camaguey (19) province long. The most important town and the oldest of the province is the port town of Nuevitas, which was the original settlement of Puerto Principe (one of the seven initial settlements) before the Spanish decided to move the settlement inland, to the actual location of the city of Camaguey. Also, during the first Cuban Independence War, the condition of the province of Camaguey (very sparse population, very few settlements, very long plain fields) made possible the formation of a very effective cavalry army lead by Ignacio Agramonte, one of the most important figures who fought for the Cuban independence.

2) The reason why I place Havana's harbor as the same as the other three is because, from a naval point of view, those four were, and still are, the best bays and natural harbors of Cuba. The reason why Havana's harbor developed quickly and outpaced the rest was due to its strategic possition. For the Spanish Treasure Fleet, it was easier stop in Havana before they sailed to Spain, and when they sailed to Spain, they could use the gulf current to navigate with ease. But the other bays are really good also. Santiago's Bay is too easy to defend and is very safe for the ships. At the beginning, this was the reason behind making Santiago the capital of Cuba during the colonial period, but the mountains and the earthquakes made dificult to develop Santiago. The Jagua Bay, or Cienfuegos Bay, is very big and deep, and easy to defend, and that without mentioning is very calm. The Guantanamo Bay also is very calm and easy to defend, and there is a little valley nearby the bay, where the port town of Caimaneras is now-a-days. The real problem of Santiago, Guantanamo and Cienfuegos was its geographical possition to the south, wich made them unnatractive for the Spanish Treasure Fleet.

 

[Pavía]

In the Nahua culture and religion, feathers, especially those from the Quetzal bird, were considered to be very important. Feathers were used to create ceremonial clothing, shields, tapestries and other works of art. Also, feather-workers were considered to be amongst the most respected artisans. Similarly to obsidian, this good is too localized to the americas to have it as a separate resource but I think it would add great flavor to have Wild Game as an input for luxury goods within the region.

It sounds as a great idea to create another PM for Wild Game to be used in Luxury Clothing, bookmarking this as well.

 

[51states]

Added most of these suggestions, although I've used 'Guaynía' as the Spanish version of Guaynia, as that was the name of the first settlement founded by Ponce de León before it was destroyed

Thank you for your reply!

1. As to naming:
The Taino names are OK, the dynamic name should be that if they are colonized by Spain. There were too many small cacicazgos in the area to represent within the scope of the game so those that are included are a good fit.
As to Guaynia, that was the largest Cacicazgo under Agüeybana, the Spanish however built a temporary settlement in the area before moving to Caparra (in present day Guaynabo) and then later to San Juan.

Guaynia later became modern Guayanilla but during the scope of the game that settlement was (and still is) minor in comparison to Ponce and Mayaguez on the Southern and western coast of PR respectively.

Trade goods of fish and salt are OK. Maybe stone where there is fruit? (the island was always more important as a bastion rather than economically because of the hilly terrain especially when compared to Cuba and Hispaniola)

Anyway I'm happy to see multiple locations even for small islands because it allows for multiple avenues of expansion and trade.

 

[Pavía]

- Will there be special situations in the Caribbean, regarding colonial competition, piracy ?

- Will there be specific mechanics to prevent colonization, raid other colonies or steal colonial trading posts without the countries being formally at war as in reality ?

- Will we see Captain Jack Sparrow ?

Oh, yes, we will have Pirates!

 

[Pavía]

will weapon production from gems be region specific?

Yes.

 

[Pavía]

Are Saba and St. Eustatius a single or different locations ? I never thought you guys would actually depict these small islands!

They aren't separate locations, I think they may end up being part of the same location as Saint Kitts and Nevis.

 

[Oglesby]

It would be cool if the population maps would have a color gradient like the development map has. Perhaps use a subtle color so not to interfere with the numbers.

I think you would want the colors to represent population density instead of raw population. This it to handle the cases where the size of the locations are different.

 

[NarcomancerPL]

No dynasties map? I know we wouldn't have much, but there are some folk stories right?

 

[Captain_Leo]

San Juan doesn't seem to be a max level natural harbor, which is weird. There's a reason Spain built the biggest fort there and not Havana which was always more important economically. The bay was better for sail boats was better protected both from storms and piracy as it was more easily defended.

I do agree the biggest Spanish fort in the Caribbean was in San Juan, however I feel the need of point out that La Habana had five castles/forts (El Morro, La Punta, La Fuerza, El Principe, Atares), one fortress (La Cabaña), a wall, and at least seven coastal defensive towers. May PR have the biggest fort, but Havana had the biggest defense sistem of the Caribbean Islands.

 

[Pavía]

the location Tepactitlan should be Tecpatitlan

Fixed.

 

[ArVass]

It looks good. Clashes a bit with copper but I can sort that out.

View attachment 1231999

Also, thumbs up for using HSV like a good one.

What about some saturated turquoise like HSV 180, 100%, 90% for gems? It's one good that could be virtually any vibrant colour and I also think it deserves to stand out, so this slightly pinkish off-white may not be very on-brand, even if pinkish white gems do exist

If someone looks at the raw good map, it would be a good idea if more "precious" resources stood out visually at first glance a bit more.

 

[Pavía]

Is there a tag in islas marías? it seens more yellow than wasteland

Yes, Aztatlan.

 

[Pavía]

@Pavía

Can we have a dynasties map mode as some dynasties in the area are known such as the Purepecha Uacúsecha.

Sure:

 

[Pavía]

Awesome work, I love to see that there's lots of effort by the team to create an accurate North and South America. I am so excited to finally play in the region were I am from: Colombia.

I have lots of comments and suggestions for South America (I'm even working on a map with suggestions for the Colombia area) that I should probably save for the next Tinto Maps.

However, I do have some preliminary questions regarding the small bits we've already seen from South America.

A. Why do the Tayrona people do not speak the "Chibchan language"? The subgroups that evolved out of them (Wiwa, Kogi, Ijka and Kankuamo) are known to speak four different Chibchan languages. This makes it very likely that the Tayrona language was a Chibchan successor to these four Chibchan languages, rather than a language isolate.

B. Moreover, the Chimila Society of Pops should be named "Ette Ennaka" instead, considering that they find the use of the word "Chimila" rather offensive and it was a Spanish colonial exonym. For some reason, the culture of the Chimila Society of Pops is accurately places as "Ette Ennaka". I would suggest having the Society of Pop be named Ette Ennaka as well.

C. I think that the various Zenú chiefdoms along the Sinú river could be three separate Settled Countries, considering that they had centralised power structures and extensive work of "engineering" to control the flow of the various rivers in their region and avoid floods. They had relatively large settlements with big mounds, similar to those of the Mississippians at Cahokia. The Zenú could be split between the following three chiefdoms: Zenúfana, Panzenú and Finzenú.

D. The province and area borders look a bit weird, considering that the areas in North America are based on the colonial provinces and states. I would suggest splitting the Sinu and Suchiimma areas into three areas:

1. Sinu: covering all the current area but stopping at the Magdalena River. With these borders, it would emmulate the Zenú chiefdoms, as well as the Spanish Colonial Province of Cartagena.

2. Wajiira: covering everything east of the Magdalena River up to the Serranía del Perijá, including, of course, the Guajira Peninsula, its indigenous namesake. It would also roughly be similar to the Spanish Colonial Province of Santa Marta.

3. Suchiimma: The rest of the area, roughly corresponding to the Spanish Colonial Provinces of Maracaibo, Coro and New Mérida.

E. Regarding natural harbours, I believe Portobelo, in the Caribbean coast of Panama should also be some sort of strong harbour. It has a huge natural bay and it was one of the main colonial ports of Spain in the New World, everything they transported from Panama City to the Caribbean passed through Portobelo. Sadly, it lost its status after the city of Colon replaced it when the Panama Canal was built, hence why it isn't as popular as a shipping port in the present. (The forts to defend the port at Portobelo are even a UNESCO World Heritage Site). Santa Marta was also a mid-ranking harbour during the colonial era.

F. I would suggest adding the island location of Old Providence off the coast of Nicaragua. It was an important pirate heaven used by Henry Morgan to capture various Spanish colonial cities, as well as one of the first English Puritan colonies in the New World.

G. Why is there Tayrona culture on the eastern shore of Lake Maracaibo? What about Kalinago culture in the middle of Colombia?

That's it for now, I will be saving the rest of my suggestions for the proper South America Tinto Map.

As I already mentioned, awesome work!

Please repost all the Colombian-related suggestions in the South American Tinto Maps.

 

[GalaxyEmperor]

Something I've been wondering if it could be changed is the population numbers for the Americas, including Mesoamerica as showcase in this Tinto Maps. I feel like the numbers used are on a very conservative low-end for pre-Columbian population estimates, so I kinda wonder what sources are being used to sustain these numbers.

"American Holocaust: The Conquest of the New World" proposes that as many as one hundred million natives died as a result of European diseases and colonization. While this exact number has been criticised, it is part of a pattern of scholarly publications going for higher numbers than the ones currently being used.

"La catastrophe démographique" proposes that Mexico, Central America, and South America had a combined population of 37 million, of which 6 were in the Aztec Empire, 5 to 10 million were on the Mayan States, 11 million in modern Brazil, and 12 million in the Inca Empire. This alone could substantially raise population numbers for Mesoamerica and South America.

"American Indian Holocaust and Survival: A Population History Since 1492" compiles many population estimates for North America, ranging from as low as 1 million to as high as 18 million. A more reasonable range, as given by the book itself, is between 1.5 million and 12 million, with arguments given to defend both ends of the range.

Recent studies regarding the Amazon rainforest, done within the last two decades, usually put the Amazon at a range of between 6 to 10 million, with usual agreement on the lower end of the range between 6 to 8 million. The reason for this number is the extensive evidence of settlements across the Amazon river basin prior to European Colonization but also during it. Early European accounts of the region show a patchwork of cities, large villages, and road networks in a complex civilization.

To conclude my point, I don't think it would be incorrect to say that the numbers given by Paradox (~20 million for the whole continent) are low, very much so. Personally I think it could be increased between two to three times, in a range of between 40 to 70 million. If I had to choose an arbitrary number, I'd go with about 64 to 66 million, for a variety of reasons such as better showcasing the absolutely apocalyptic scale of the arrival of Europeans and the devastation they caused directly and indirectly.

@Pavía

 

[Pavía]

You can absolutely fit all three. Tenochtitlan doesn’t need to extend that far north, cut it in half and give the new area to Talacopan, with Azcapotzalco being tweaked so their southern border is midway between the cities of Azcapotzalco and Talacopan

I've been discussing this with the team, I think that we might potentially take some room from Cuauhtitlan in the north for Azcapotzalco, and then try to squeeze Tlacopan between Azcapotzalco and Tenochtitlan, also take some pixels from the later... But no promise about it until we start the map review.