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Tinto Maps #5 - 7th of June 2024 - Italy

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fifth Tinto Maps! This week we will be sharing the map of Italy.

One comment before we start: we know that you might be eager to discuss other regions that may appear partially on the DD, such as the Balkans. Let’s try to keep the conversations separated in different threads, please; every region will get its own Tinto Maps, and we will show them and gather feedback in due time, in their own DD.

With that said, let’s start!:

Countries
Countries.jpg

The situation of Italy in 1337 is quite interesting. The main power in the peninsula is the Kingdom of Naples, ruled by King Robert I, who is also ruler of Provence, and a few minor countries in Northern Italy; his efforts towards the domination of Italy also made him the leader of the Guelph faction in Italy, which backs the Pope. Speaking of him, the seat of the Curia is at Avignon, and regaining control over the Papal States and moving it back to Rome might take some time and effort. Opposite to all of them, there is the Ghibelline faction, led by the Signoria of Milan, ruled by the Visconti dynasty. They are backed by other important powers in the Italian region, such as the Superb Republic of Genoa, or the Duchy of Verona, ruled by the dynasty of della Scala. There are also neutral powers, like the Republics of Venice or Siena, although they could be attracted to join one of the factions. And we also have foreign powers that have already set a foothold in Italy, such as the Crown of Aragon, which has established a branch of its dynasty as Kings of Sicilia, while also recently conquering some lands in Sardinia.

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Guelphs.jpg

Ghibellines.jpg

Guelphs and Ghibellines factions! They are International Organizations part of a Situation.

Dynasties
dynasties.png


Locations
Locations.jpg

There is an interesting density in Italy, especially in the North, where there are plenty of communes - the Italian city-states. You might also notice something a bit different from previous Paradox GSGs: Venice is not an island, but the location has lands around the lagoon. We aren’t 100% sure that this will be the final design, as we have a few ideas to try to keep its special position on an island inside the lagoon while addressing the issue of it being too small to appear in the map; in this regard, we’re open about feedback and ideas on the topic.

Provinces
Provinces.jpg

Any naming suggestions about the provinces are well-received, as usual.

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Three usual terrain layers. Something that I want to comment on is that we’ve been following this thread about ‘Revising Flatlands and hills’, and we are trying to get a bit more granularity in the Topographical map with the help of @SulphurAeron .

Cultures
Cultures.jpg

Italy is also a region with a sharp cultural division, and also plenty of minorities; although they don’t appear on the map, there are Italki Jews, or Greek and Albanian people in the South, among others.

Religions
Religion.jpg

Another boring region, with more than 90% of the population being Catholic, with most of the religious minorities being Italkim Jews and Orthodox Greeks. We're considering implementing Waldensians, although adding more diverging Catholic heresies/confessions is a bit of a low priority for us right now. As a side note, it might catch your eye the Krstjani of Bosnia; we’ll discuss them later on, in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Balkans.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

Italy is a rich region with plenty of interesting raw materials.

Markets
Markets.jpg

There are three market centers in Italy: Genoa, Venice, and Naples (which was a very, very rich country in 1337, the wealthiest of the region). As usual, take into account that. 1. We don't script in the setup which locations belong to each market, they're automatically assigned to each market. 2. This starting distribution is not final, and it might change, as we do tweaks to the market access calculations over time.

Population
Pops Countries.jpg

Pops Locations.png

There is around 10.5M population in the Italian region as of now. Taking into account how divided the political landscape is, Naples looks scary…

And that’s all for this week! For the next one, we will be talking about the British Isles, with @SaintDaveUK . See you!
 
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Shouldnt the province of Trieste also produce salt. I am no expert but here in Slovenia we have very famous salt evaporation ponds that have been here since the 13th century and are located around the city of piran which is in the trieste location.
 
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Respectfully disagree here, I feel like they shouldn't be out of the table if Andorra made it. Despite their size, their history and government is quite interesting. (Which also mirrors Andorra)
The main problem for San Marino is the size, as it also happens with Monaco. To put it in context, Andorra is almost 8 times the size of San Marino, and 230 times the size of Monaco.
 
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I see that Rome is a Coastal location which isn’t accurate if we are to assume that is the City of Rome which is Inland without any Port or Coastline. So here’s my Suggestion: Ostia, which is a Port City used to supply Rome but separate from it.

IMG_2790.jpeg

As seen in this picture, Ostia should be added as a location infront of Rome, making Rome an inland location while making Ostia Antica the coastal location.
 
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Is anyone else concerned about the huge difference in location density? Just compare Italy to the Balkans:

View attachment 1145051

One location in Hungary is 5-6 locations in Italy.
I just hope this wont make more dense countries automatically more powerful like with Germany and the rest of Europe in EU4
Even if you compare Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica to Hungary and the Balkans, there is a big disproportion
 
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Another note, being from Rome I don't think Umbrian is a good name for the culture around Central Italy, I'm not sure what could you name my culture, something like Middle Italian (a nod to Italiano mediano, the name of the variant of Italian currently spoken in Lazio-Umbria-Marche).
Since its color is red, is Roman a good idea or not? :p
 
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I think it'd be quite fun if there was an achievement for if you own the locations of Jan Mayen and Urbino (or that one directly above it I can't read) called "Jan Marino", even though San Marino won't exist in the game. It will exist in my heart and in my memes
 
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For the south-west location in sardinia, the name Carbonia, and the city called this way is from 1930, i will suggest to call it Sulcis, as the name of that part of island. Also i would hardly describe that part as flatlands, hills would be much better to describe it. The name Carbonia is given by the many mines of Coal in that part of the island, and even if not exploited in this period, that would be a better good then Wheat

Also I’d like to know what is the aproch to naming the many location, if using their italian name of moder days, or if using the old Sardinian name, in that case their will be many suggestion on how to name the different location
 
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Is anyone else concerned about the huge difference in location density? Just compare Italy to the Balkans:

View attachment 1145051

One location in Hungary is 5-6 locations in Italy.
I just hope this wont make more dense countries automatically more powerful like with Germany and the rest of Europe in EU4
Don't expect the different regions of the world to have the same density, as they all are different. In Europe, the densest regions are Germany and Italy, which we think makes sense, mainly for historical reasons. Also, take into account that population is an important factor in making countries powerful.
 
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I also noticed that but given population density and how split Italy was at that time (and for centuries) I'd say that's fair.
True, population is not really a big concern. I am more worried about RGO's

Big locations should be have a much higher production capacity for base resources than smaller locations to compensate the lesser variety of goods
 
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Shouldnt the province of Trieste also produce salt. I am no expert but here in Slovenia we have very famous salt evaporation ponds that have been here since the 13th century and are located around the city of piran which is in the trieste location.
There were saltworks in many areas of Istria and Dalmatia, with Piran and Pago being the biggest and having an annual production of around 400,000 cwt each in the XVI century. They were the main sources of salt for the Venecian Republic.

Source: Adshead, S. M. A. (1992). «The Habsburg Salt Administration». Salt and civilization. p.240-241
 
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So, some naming suggestions (i'll focus on the Basilicata province since I am from those lands):
1) Basilicata is a very recent name, while previously that region was known as Lucania, so I think it'd be better to call it in this way.
2) The location of Montepelose should be Montepeloso (with a final O)
3) Lagonegro (if I can read correctly) was part of the Lauria County, so maybe it should be renamed Lauria, but it is fine also in this way
4) I can't read the name of the location east of Lagonegro.

Also, generally speaking, Citra and Ultra are fine, but since the provinces names are in Italian, I think it'd be better the adjectives Citeriore and Ulteriore.

About terrain:
1) I know you used koppen classification for climate, but it seems very odd to me to have oceanic climate on the tirrenean shores
2) Maybe for Matera is better to have plains (see Piana di Metaponto)
3) Acerenza and Potenza were not so populated or big cities, so maybe woods would be fine for them, like for Melfi

Culture:
1) Which culture are the lighter stripes in Potenza?
2) About albanian minorities, to my knlowledge the strong migration happened after muslim conquer of Albany, with big albanian (or arbëreshë) communities is Sicily, Calabria and Lucania (in the location whose name I can't read): there will be some mechanic (or event) about this?

Raw goods:
1) Melfi was and still is famous for its wine (Aglianico del Vulture), so maybe it would be better than oil.
2) Lumber is fine, but that enforces my point above about woods.

Also, it would be nice to show the Pope dinasty too, since a Medici Pope (e.g.) would be closer to a Medici ruled contry then to others, don't you think?
 
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Solve Venice like M&T, keep the map as is, but put a strait between Venice and adjacent locations, so you need naval control to get there.

Also, wastelands look horrible in all map modes, please find a new way of showing them.
 
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For the south-west location in sardinia, the name Carbonia, and the city called this way is from 1930, i will suggest to call it Sulcis, as the name of that part of island. Also i would hardly describe that part as flatlands, hills would be much better to describe it.
Also I’d like to know what is the aproch to naming the many location, if using their italian name of moder days, or if using the old Sardinian name, in that case their will be many suggestion on how to name the different location
For reference on Sardinian history during the time-frame of the game, i will suggest the works of Francesco Cesare Casula, and his most famous book :”La storia di Sardegna”. Arborea should be model not as a kingdom, but more in a shape of a republic, with fixed dinastic rulers.

For the location of Cagliari, insted of wine, I will suggest salt, for the importante of the salt pans present there since Carthago time.
 
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