Tinto Maps #6 Great Britain & Ireland Feedback

[Antor Seax]

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now looks a bit more like your suggestion

Now people are going to whinge about England having too much powerful flat terrain, like they did about the English culture being too large.

 

[matfer13]

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now looks a bit more like your suggestion

Cumbria looks way to flat, I think you should rework it a bit by putting a few impassables in the middle representing the mountains in the Lake District National Park, there's also that lake which doesn't seem to exist irl why did you put it in?

 

[Sulphurologist]

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now looks a bit more like your suggestion

You're an absolutely gorgeous person <3
Final nitpick is to not forget about the peaks of the lake district

 

[phantasmAgaric]

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now looks a bit more like your suggestion

Could you take another look at Ireland here? I did a fairly deep review of Ireland's terrain using Sulphurologist's map as a base, taking into consideration what each location represents rather than just the the literal shapes of each location at present. E.g. Ossory's territory should cover one of the highest hills in ireland as well as dense bog, but as the location is larger than the historical territory it's been classified as wetland. There's a number of similar adjustments and nudges I've made to account for this sort of thing — you can find my post here! https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ritain-ireland-feedback.1745696/post-30383976

 

[MTGian]

It didn't take me as long as I thought. Here is the map.

Spoiler

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Let me explain a few things:
1) The counties are all colored/labelled the same with exceptions for Lincolnshire and Northumberland where the data was broken out. The distribution within the county is something that will have to be estimated. Something like the urban areas are higher and the rural areas are lower.
2) The color coding is scaled to Oxfordshire as 100. I didn't use Middlesex because it was so far off from the rest of the data. Middlesex includes London, if that isn't obvious.
3) The color coding is blue (low) to yellow (middle) to red (high).
4) The Spalding location is split between Kesteven and Holland based on the maps I could find, so I cheated and just averaged the two values (74 for Kesteven, 86 for Holland).
5) I used Tyne and Wear Ceremonial County (Tyne and Wear County) for Newcastle location. It isn't a perfect overlap geographically for the game, but I think it is roughly the same size. This matters because the wealth distribution is tax assessment / square mile.
6) I don't think the Cinque Ports were included, so Kent is on the low side. I came up with a way to adjust for it in one of the other data sets. It wasn't a massive difference. Maybe somewhere in the 85 range.
7) York (just the city) had a higher tax assessment than Newcastle. All of the rural territory in the west of the North Riding and the moors are watering it down. It probably should be more like the 60s of East Riding.
8) Edit: The ratio between the numbers does represent the ratio between the tax assessment values per square mile. So, Middlesex/London's assessment is roughly double Oxfordshire's per square mile. Oxfordshire's is roughly double Hampshire's. Hampshire's is roughly double Derbyshire's. Derbyshire's is roughly double Westmorland's.

Any questions?

Observations:
The map fits my understanding. There was a line that cut across the center of England from Bristol to Norfolk that was the most affluent part. Buckinghamshire was a more pastoral county, so it is cut out of the affluent region. Cambridgeshire contains some of the more inland parts of The Fens, so that may be why it is slightly lower too.

I'll post the data that I used later if people want to play with it. Enjoy.

Life sometimes gets in the way. I forgot about providing the data for this.

Here's what I did:
1) I took the tax assessment data from my previous post (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ritain-ireland-feedback.1745696/post-30529886).

2) I then looked up the area in square miles for the historical counties.

3) I divided the two to get tax assessment / square mile (the same method was used by the historians in the other analyses I posted).

4) I then scaled the results from 8.88 to 100 (I should have done 1 to 100, oops!) and color coded.

Here is a picture of the spreadsheet containing all of the data:

Spoiler

Enjoy!

P.S. For those complaining about Norfolk, if you look at the heat map, it does have Norfolk as the third highest after Oxford and Middlesex. Holland and Kesteven are also up there.

 

[Lord_McMuffin]

Irish Iron
As someone who looks forward to playing in Ireland, I think it could use a few more mineral RGOs, for selfish historical reasons. This post recommends iron or coal in Leitrim, but aside from that I haven’t seen any other similar suggestions (admittedly I didn’t look very thoroughly). Anyways, I highly recommend giving this thesis on Ironworking in late Medieval Ireland a read, which I've quoted and summarized below.

Interestingly, what few medieval references to iron mining we have suggest that iron may have been a common export of Ireland and that in the 1500s, Ireland likely had enough production for self-sufficiency. Contemporary historians even thought that Ireland's name came from its iron! Imports from Spain seem to mostly have been for the specific qualities of that iron, and not for a specific lack of indigenous iron production.

Spoiler: Early Iron Mining Quotes

```According to a local tradition surviving into the nineteenth century (Kinahan 1887:305), the iron mines at Ballycoog and Moneyteige (between Arklow and Aughrim in Co. Wicklow) were worked by the native Irish before the Anglo-Norman conquest and subsequently by Shillary and Raymond, two knights of Strongbow, one of the leading figures in that conquest``` Vol. 1 p.95

```The earliest surviving Irish murage charter, granted to the town of Waterford in AD 1225, seems to imply that iron was produced in Ireland at that time, as the iron is listed under the export products``` Vol. 1 p.96

```The accounts of the Earl of Norfolk's estates in the south-east of the country, for Old Ross in AD 1283/84 and 1284/85, mention ferro proprio or own iron (see Chapter 7.2.1). This own iron is used for making plough shares, coulters and agricultural implement. No expenses are recorded for this iron, only the stipends of the smith making the objects, in contrast to iron for structural parts of the ploughs, which is always purchased. As no excess iron appears in the accounts which could have been carried over from one year to the next, it is suggested this own iron might have been produced, that is to say smelted, on the estate.``` Vol. 1 p.97

```The next reference to potential iron mining dates from about a century and a half later, when, at the Parliament of Drogheda of AD 1450, provisions were made to levy taxes on wheat and malt, to be spent by a certain Richard Ingrame on developing mines of “silver, lead, iron, coal, plaster of Paris and millstone” which he had discovered within the Pale (Berry 1910: 285). The iron could have been just a commodity added to Ingram's list of achievements, but only 25 years later, in The Noumbre of weightes, a manual for English merchants, iron, possibly in the form of finished products, is listed under the export products of Ireland, “Also there is lynnone [linnen] clothe and jrone...``` (Jenks 1992: 308)." Vol. 1 p.98

```The Red Book of the Earls of Kildare (1503) lists several mines in the south of Ireland and on the subject of iron it is stated that “There beth so many mynes of yron that Irishmen do occupy noo yron but suche as they make themselves” (Mac Niocaill 1964b: 13). Although the “mynes of yron” do not necessarily imply adits or even open cast mining, even bog ore collecting could conceivably be seen as a “myne”, it does clearly indicate the self-sufficiency of the Irish in their iron production at the turn of the sixteenth century.``` Vol. 1 p.98

```The idea that Ireland was rich in iron became widespread during this period and led to several historians, at that time, to believe that Ireland got its name from its abundance of that metal:
Of whom at the same time the countrie (as some hold) was named Hibernia, as in the description further appeareth: although some rather hold, that it tooke the name of iron, of the plentifull mines of that kind of mettall wherewith that land aboundeth: and so those ancient writers which name it Ierna, named it more aptlie after the speech of the inhabitants than others, which name it Hibernia. Chronicles England, Scotland, and Ireland (Holinshed 1587: 49) ``` Vol. 1 p.101

```Steel is often mentioned in the murage and other grants awarded to Irish towns and was regularly observed in the Irish late medieval knives metallographically examined. We are also informed on the production of steel through the written record, referring to it being made in Co. Mayo in the 1580s and in Ulster in the early seventeenth century. But not all steel used in Ireland in late medieval times was made there. At least from the fourteenth century onwards it is mentioned as imported from Spain and by the sixteenth century from England, and possibly from further afield. Another type of iron, called Spanish iron in the sources but archaeologically still poorly understood, was imported into Ireland from northern Spain from the early fourteenth century onwards. It appears that Spanish iron was especially suitable for welding, and large quantities of it were used in construction work and for the fabrication of larger, composite iron objects.``` Vol 1. p.280

```From the fourteenth century onwards, imports of iron from Spain to Ireland are increasingly recorded. It is suggested that this Spanish iron was a type of iron especially used for its weldability and as such not a direct replacement for indigenously-produced iron. Its use in construction explains the large quantities in which it is imported into Ireland and elsewhere.``` Vol 1. p.293-294

```Iron appears to have been readily available in most parts of the country throughout the late medieval period, evidenced by its frequent occurrence in the town grants and on the many excavations. Some of these, for example at Woodlands West, Co. Kildare [129], where both smelting and smithing activities were carried out, demonstrate that some communities were potentially self-sufficient in iron supply. This would also appear to have been the situation in Co. Derry, as is historically documented in the early seventeenth century, and at Burrishoole, Co. Mayo a half a century earlier. At the very beginning of the sixteenth century, the author of the Red Book of Kildare went so far as to claim that the Irish needed no iron as they made all they needed themselves. There is even some evidence that iron was exported from Ireland early on during the late medieval period. In other cases, such as the on the Bigod manor of Old Ross in the south-east of Ireland, locally produced iron appears to have supplemented the iron purchased from other sources. In some places, however, as in the 1270s at the coastal towns of Drogheda and Youghal, the explicit reference that no taxes were to be levied on iron could indicate a scarcity of this metal, but other explanations are plausible. From the late fourteenth century onwards, several ordnances were enacted aimed at curtailing the trade between the Pale and some of the coastal towns, on the one hand, and the Irish enemy, on the other. Iron was obviously regarded as a strategic material and often specifically included in these acts. It is unclear, however, if this was strictly followed, and if this would have restricted access to iron for the Irish. Apart from iron made themselves, it was regularly acquired through raids and theft, and, for more enterprising individuals, through piracy.``` Vol. 1 p.281-282

Spoiler: Iron Mine Maps

Ireland also still had notable production of iron in the latter half of the game, with the introduction of blast furnaces and steel production during the plantation era. A lot of these were destroyed during the Irish Confederate Wars. They were also a big contributor to Ireland's deforestation from charcoal harvesting.

Spoiler: Blast Furnace Quotes

```After 1600, when the Plantation of Ireland gets going in earnest, it is Richard Boyle, the first Earl of Cork who will be most successful in operating blast furnaces. Over a 40 year period, the Earl will build four furnaces, more fineries and the only ever steel-making plant in Ireland around Lismore in east Co. Waterford. ``` The Sliabh Aughty iron industry in the 17th and 18th centuries

```Nonetheless, the very existence of the charcoal-fired blast furnace in post-medieval Ireland, either as an industrial technology or an arch archaeological site type, has been completely ignored, despite the fact that at least 154 blast furnace sites are known to have been in existence here between ca. 1593 and 1798.``` Towards an Archaeology of the Post-Medieval Irish Iron Industry: The Blast Furnace in South Munster

```It is generally agreed that most of the early seventeenth-century Irish works were destroyed in the 1641 rebellion (Andrews 1956, 142), and after this period, the resurgence of the Irish industry was slow. Indeed, in 1672, Sir William Petty, in his Political anatomy of Ireland, claimed that there were only ten blast furnaces and slightly more than 20 forges and bloomeries operating in Ireland (Gribbon 1969, 73), compared with 71 blast furnaces in England and Wales in the period 1670-9 (Hammersly 1973, 595).``` Towards an Archaeology of the Post-Medieval Irish Iron Industry: The Blast Furnace in South Munster

Proposal: I don't know how many iron RGOs would bring Ireland close to self-sufficiency in iron production, maybe 2-4? A lot of the medieval iron mining/production was concentrated in the south, so that's where I'd expect to see most of it.

Irish Coal
I don't think Ireland was ever a dominant (or particularly early) producer of coal like England, but I still think it deserves at least 1-2 coal RGOs.

• Leinster: The earliest coal mining in Ireland was at the Leinster coal field in 1638, which covered parts of Kilkenny, Carlow and Laois (Source).
  • Coal mining at Slieveardagh dates to sometime before the great survey in 1654 (Source).
  • Also See: Ballingarry Coal Mines
• Ulster: The Coalisland coalfields in Tyrone were being worked as early as 1654, with more being found in 1690 at Drumfield. Mining in the area continued until the 1970s (Source). The 7.2km Coalisland Canal was built from the mines to Lough Ness to make transporting the coal to Dublin easier, although the venture was never very profitable (Source).
• Connaught: Coal at Arigna was mined from 1765 until 1990. This coal was used to smelt local iron ores at an ironworks that operated from 1795-1838 (Source).
• Munster: Coal had been mined at Kanturk since before 1715 and between 1820 to 1882 produced upwards of 950,000 tons of coal (Source).

For more reading about it, I'd also recommend The Industrial Resources of Ireland from 1845.

Spoiler: Map of Irish Coal Fields

Source

Irish Gold/Silver
Irish gold production has a long history, going back to the bronze age. Quite a few deposits have been discovered in modern times in the last ~20 years or so, but for the game the only somewhat relevant one was the Wicklow gold rush in 1795, producing 7,400-9,000 troy oz. I quoted some scant references to early gold mining below, but as far as I can tell, there's no verified records of significant production until 1795.

Spoiler: Gold Mining Quotes

```Potential foreign interest in Irish metals, including iron, is also apparent in the letter sent by Allesandro Fidel, an Italian merchant working out of Waterford (Izon 1956: 93), to Pope Pius V in AD 1571 wherein the author talks about additional reasons why an invasion of Ireland by Italian troops would be of benefit to the Holy See (CSPV 1558–1571: 391).
The mines of gold, silver, lead, tin and iron are of recent discovery: a mine of alum is of extraordinary richness. These mines are owned by Irish gentlemen who do no sort of obedience to Elizabeth, and will hear of no name but that of your Holiness, to whom they do all obedience and service, as our duty is much rather to your Holiness. ``` Ironworking in late Medieval Ireland Vol 1. p. 100

```Tudor victory in 1485, and the consolidation of royal power may have sparked off interest in filling the royal coffers with the putative gold and silver resources of Ireland. There is a printed mineralogical survey with attributed date of 1497 in the Calendars of State Papers. It is most comprehensive and if the date were true (it may be later), it would indicate a very active interest in promoting mining in Ireland in the late 15th century (Hamner Papers). This seems to be borne out by a reference c.1500 when, reportedly, "There is in the Earl of Desmond's country a mine of gold and part of the ore was brought to Waterford and sayne (=seen/assayed?) by the Recorder and oth-ers". ``` AN HISTORY OF QUARRYING AND MINING IN IRELAND UP TO 1700 p. 29

Silvermines in County Tipperary has been mentioned in this thread a few times, so I thought I'd give a better case for it. Before the start of the game, the mines were worked from 1289-1303. There is indirect evidence of it being worked in 1336 (since it seems this is when the area was given the "Silvermines" name). In 1375 the Earl of Ormonde applied for royal permission to operate the mines, which was granted but revoked after only a year. Then in 1380, all Irish landowners were granted the right to coinage and to mine for gold and silver, for six years while only paying a ninth part to the Crown. The next possible mention is in 1503 when the Red Book of Kildare mentions silver mines at Waterford, Knocktopher and Ormond (likely Silvermines). In 1631, all the mines in Munster “were let to Messrs Whitmore and Webb" who mined copper and lead at Silvermines, but no silver. The mines are destroyed and/or operations stopped with the rebellion of 1641. Mining picks up again for copper in 1721, and then silver and lead in 1770s and 1780s. Further mentions of mining occur after 1837.

I'd list the quotes, but I stitched that summary from so many disparate parts of my sources that this post would get too long. I'd also like to note that Silvermines was not the only place where silver mining took place in Ireland, and a number of other locations are mentioned in my sources too.

Proposal: The coolest move would be to give Ireland both a silver and gold location, but that's probably too much. Silver mining is mentioned as having taken place in a number of locations across Ireland, enough that I think at least 1 silver RGO is justified at start, or if not then spawned by an event in either 1375 or the 1500s.

Sources:
Early silver mining in western Europe: an Irish perspective
AN HISTORY OF QUARRYING AND MINING IN IRELAND UP TO 1700
The Mining Heritage and History of the Silvermines area, County Tipperary, Ireland since the 13th century

Spoiler: Table and Map of Early Irish Silver Mines

 

[Autonomous]

I was not previously aware that Ben Macdui was shaped like a spike for the eye of God...

 

[MTGian]

Apologies to people who read my post from a couple days back with some topography suggestions. I decided I wanted to do a deeper dive and more professional level of research rather than just throw an hour at it.

It will probably take me a couple of weeks because of current time commitments.

In that post, I suggested some concern over the following. These will be the focus of my research:

1) The wetlands in Rochester. I don't think the northern Kent coast had enough wetlands to justify a location.
2) The wetlands in Portishead. I don't think the Somerset levels were large enough to justify two locations.
3) The lack of wetlands in Cambridge. I think The Fens covered most of this location.
4) The lack of wetlands in Louth. I think there were significant wetlands along the Lincolnshire coast.
5) The lack of wetlands in Pontefract and Selby. I think the Humberhead levels should be represented and were large enough for two locations.
6) The wetlands in Kendal / lack of wetlands in Lancaster. I don't think the Morecambe coast/estuaries were large enough in Kendal to justify wetland, but they might have been in Lancaster.

Just in case anyone cares, I'll be looking into these. Let me know if there are any other areas people would like me to research.

 

[livebythecreed77]

Comparing against IR I think the textures/aesthetics maybe for hills look better there but what I didn't notice at first was the lack of rivers until I looked at the imperator version. With only the Shannon visible but none of the other rivers, will they be added? maybe its much of an ask but seems a lot of loughs missing in Fermanagh as well.

 

[SaintDaveUK]

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Comparing against IR I think the textures/aesthetics maybe for hills look better there but what I didn't notice at first was the lack of rivers until I looked at the imperator version. With only the Shannon visible but none of the other rivers, will they be added? maybe its much of an ask but seems a lot of loughs missing in Fermanagh as well.

We restricted the rivers globally to ones that meet a certain threshold of width and length. The original design included rivers like the Liffey but with that threshold basically every location in Europe and Asia had a river which removed all the significance of the mechanic.

 

[titan.bevel]

The original design included rivers like the Liffey but with that threshold basically every location in Europe and Asia had a river which removed all the significance of the mechanic.

Probably far too close to the release (even if we don't know when that is, but I assume "foundational" changes are now a bit too far to happen), but maybe for a DLC, wouldn't it be possible to have ALL of these rivers be represented, but with a "river size" different for each one ? And the "river size" would affect how much of an impact the river has on control propagation, on economic benefit, etc. etc.

I don't think it'd be that big of a problem to have "every location in some continents have a river", as long as not all river are created equal.

 

[livebythecreed77]

We restricted the rivers globally to ones that meet a certain threshold of width and length. The original design included rivers like the Liffey but with that threshold basically every location in Europe and Asia had a river which removed all the significance of the mechanic.

That's 100% fair the only thing being that should they still not be displayed even though mechanically they do not amount to much? Like obviously the shannon looks way different to the ones in Imperator and control propagation mechanics work through it makes sense, but even fighting battles though say the river bann surely that would evoke a crossing penalty?

 

[phantasmAgaric]

We restricted the rivers globally to ones that meet a certain threshold of width and length. The original design included rivers like the Liffey but with that threshold basically every location in Europe and Asia had a river which removed all the significance of the mechanic.

I would at least the very strongly consider adding the Barrow and Suir in this case, as well as maybe the Blackwater. If you're considering control propagation, the valleys of these three rivers formed the economic and political heartlands of Anglo-Norman control.

The Barrow connected the future Pale around Dublin and Meath with with the key counties of Kildare, Kilkenny, Carlow, and Wexford to the crucial ports of New Ross and Waterford, and the FitzGeralds' control over the upper Barrow gave them enormous influence over the entire Lordship. Meanwhile, the Suir and Blackwater connected the easily-accessible ports of the south coast to the agricultural heartlands of Limerick, Cork, and Tipperary.

Implementing these as well as my suggested changes to Irish topography and vegetation would go a huge way towards accurately represented the ways Ireland's geography determined its political history.