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Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

Hello everyone, and welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Maps! I am once again asking for your support back to the duty of showing a new region of the map of the super secret Project Caesar, which this week is Anatolia!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

A beautifully divided Anatolia! The disintegration of the Sultanate of Rûm in the 13th century, caused by the Mongol invasion, led to multiple Turkish Beyliks grabbing power over their area. Probably the strongest in 1337 is the Ottoman one, founded by the Turkoman leader Osman Ghazi, but there are other strong contenders such as the Eretnids, the Germiyanids, or the Karamanids, which will be fighting for hegemony over the region. You might also notice that the Byzantine Empire//Eastern Roman Empire//Basileía Rhōmaíōn//[insert here your favorite naming option] still holds a few positions in Anatolia, the most notable being the city of Philadelphia. Apart from them, other interesting countries in the region are the Despotate of Trebizond, held by the Komnenoi, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and, of course, The-country-known-in-another-IP-as-Hisn-Kayfa, the Ayyubid remnant in al-Jazira. And you might also notice some Genoese outposts, making them important players as well.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastic map is pretty straightforward, as a different dynasty rules each Beylik. We have fixed the issue with the random dynasty names, so no more weird 'the XXXX of XXXX' dynastic names anymore. To spice things up, we could maybe start a Byzantine discussion: Palaiologos, or Komnenos?

Locations:
Locations.jpg

As usual, please consider that dynamic location naming is not yet a thing in this region, and therefore the inconsistencies in the language used. As an additional note of caution, please don’t use the Aegean Islands as a reference or benchmark for comparison, as a review of them is something that we’ve got on our list of ‘to do’. You may be able to see that the location density in the region is gradual, from denser coastal regions to bigger inland ones.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain in Anatolia is quite interesting and unique, as it’s composed of very different features: the central Anatolian Plateau, with a colder climate and more sparse vegetation, is opposed to the rugged and more forested coastlines to the north and south, while only having fluvial flatlands to the west, and in Cilicia (an area that always has been a choke point between Anatolia and Syria. And to the east, the territory becomes increasingly more mountainous, as it approaches the Caucasus.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Anatolia is the first region of the Middle East with cultural and religious minorities added, just in time for this Tinto Maps, so we can have endless discussions about the divide between the Greek and Turkish cultures! Hurray! Now seriously, we’ve made what we think is the most accurate division for 1337, given the scarcity of data. The stripes point to a variation of the pop percentages in each location, from let’s say 70% of Greeks in Izmit or Bursa, to 80% of Turks in Ankara or Konya. We have also added some subdivisions of these cultures, with the Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks; and the Turkomans (you might note a majority of them around Sivas and Malatya), that portray more a ‘class//social grouping’ divide than an ethnic or language divide, as these Turkoman pops are always tribesmen, while we consider the settled population as Turkish. Other than that, we have a good amount of Armenians distributed between the areas of Cilicia and Armenia; Laz people to the north; and Kurds to the east (the brownish-greenish culture). Also, please ignore the chunk of Syria that appears, as the minorities there are not yet done.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

We’re back to interesting religious divisions! We have in Anatolia Orthodox, Sunni, Miaphysite, and Nestorian pops. And if you wonder what are those pink stripes in Thrace, they are a Paulician minority.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

There are some interesting materials distributed all over Anatolia, such as Alum (which was a main export to Italy, usually handled by the merchant republics), Silk, Marble, or Copper. And if you’re wondering about the Spices, they were previously Saffron.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

The market centers of the region are Constantinople to the west, Trebizond to the north, and Damascus to the south. Nothing speaks against a Turkish Beylik conquering one or all of them, or creating a new market center, probably in the middle of the Anatolian Plateau, although probably it will require some infrastructure to make it fully functional.

Location and Country Population:
Pops Locations.jpg

Pops Country.jpg

And populations. Byzantium has some edge over each of the Beylikz, but not if they ally with each other, or if they ally with its Balkanic rivals… Also, have I heard about a 66K Ayyubid challenge?

That’s all for today! We’ll most likely be uploading the French feedback results by the end of next week or at the start of the following one (as next week there's an important bank holiday for this company, Midsommar St. John's Day, and some people will be on vacation a few days), and in the meantime, we'll also be reading and answering your feedback about Anatolia. And next Friday, we will be taking a look at Russia. See you then!

PS: I had a flight today that was delayed, therefore the delay on the DD until an (interesting) hour in which I'll be available for replying.
 
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well kurdish is a sub persian culture .
beside from tribe to tribe differences the culture in general is the same and not much influenced by nearby cultures like armenian or arab or turk
sub-Iranic/Iranian culture* Persian is a southwestern Iranian culture and Kurdish is a Northwestern Iranian culture.
 
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There definitely needs to be few more horse provinces in Cappadocia area (Nevşehir at least) and wine in Syriac areas too.
well it depends if thats only a stereotype based on popularity and tourism or its truly the most common thing that province give . maybe the syriac provinces is famous for wine production but is it really the thing that region make most ? what if it have other things that are more important but less famous?
i dont know myself truly about those regions but its just to keep in mind that maybe some regions dont have the thing you expect because they maybe have other recourses that are less famous but more profitable like lets say a silvermine or something else
 
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I wish related cultures (i.e. Pontic and Greek) had more similar colors to show the relation.
 
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Even after 1337, Iranian cultural aspects were prevalent in Azeri society, such as the Azeri's adoption of Shia Islam. And geographically, much cultural syncrecy occurred between Persians and Azeris in the timeline of Project Caesar. This includes the Safavid Dynasty of Iran, an ethnic Azeri dynasty that still was a member of the Iranian culture group.

This makes little sense. It wasn't because of the general Persianate influence that Azeris became Shia, after all heavily Persianate Khwarezmian and Seljuk dynasties were Sunni Muslim, similarly very Persianate Mughals were also Sunni. It's the reverse, the heterodox trends closer to Shia Islam popular among nomadic Turkic groups were imposed on Iran, which also had certain heterodox traditions, under purview of Safavid dynasty and the more Orthodox Shia clergy brought to Tabriz and Tehran from Iraq to enforce a religious uniformity on Iran in the imperial contest between Ottomans and Safavids. Moreover the founder of the dynasty, Shah Ismail and his qizilbash followers were more or less Heterodox in religion and became increasingly orthodox Shia and Persianized only once the empire's boundaries settled within Iran and they lost their heartlands in Eastern Anatolia and Northern Iraq.
 
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Do you have a "winrate" (so-to-speak) in your mind for the Byzantine-Ottoman rivalry (or even the Anatolian "Thunderdome" as a whole?

In how many games (with no player involvement obv) do you want/expect the Byz to win? In how many the Ottos? Or some other Beylik/someone else entirely?
Not yet, is a bit early in development for that. I guess that our aim is that the Ottomans usually are the regional winners, and kill the Byzantines (sorry!), but we don't have a set outcome percentage ATM.
 
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I noticed there's only one Medicaments in all of Anatolia. Since opium is supposed to be part of this good and it was quite commonly used and grown in this area, I would expect there to be some more of it. Not sure about exactly where it was grown, so maybe someone else can provide details, but there is a city in Anatolia literally named after opium.
Older spellings include Karahisar-i Sahip
There's a location called Karahisar-i Sahib kinda right where it should be, though it's showing to be producing marble.
 
Since the culture of the middle east is being worked on right now I figure its appropriate for me to post this essay I've been working on for the past hour.


Azerbaijani culture should be in the Iranian culture group rather than the Oghuz culture group at the game start.

The Classical-Era inhabitants of Azerbaijan were the Azeri people of the Iranic ethno-linguistic family. These people had been under Persian cultural influence for 1500 years at the time of Project Caesar's game start. From the rule by the Achaemeneids to the rule of the Parthians, to the rule of the Sassanids, Azerbaijan had been part of the Iranian heartland. They were a strong part of the Zoroastrian community. Even after the Muslim conquests of the Caucuses and Persia, the Azeri people still were a part of Persian cultural practices such as having "local rulers called shāhanshāhs" (https://www.britannica.com/place/Azerbaijan/Government-and-social-conditions#ref44296).

It was only less than 300 years before the game-start when the process of Turkicization of the area began. The main influx of Turks to the area was during the Mongol conquest of the region (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Azerbaijani-people), less than a century before game-start. To say that only around two centuries' worth of cultural assimilation could completely switch the culture of the area from the multi-millennium-old Iranian institutions to Turkic ones would be untrue.

Even after 1337, Iranian cultural aspects were prevalent in Azeri society, such as the Azeri's adoption of Shia Islam. And geographically, much cultural syncrecy occurred between Persians and Azeris in the timeline of Project Caesar. This includes the Safavid Dynasty of Iran, an ethnic Azeri dynasty that still was a member of the Iranian culture group.


To put this to an analogy, saying 200 years of Turkic migration and Turkic language in the area would make Azeris a part of the Oghuz culture group would be akin to saying that Iranian culture should be considered as a part of the Arab culture family because there were two centuries of Arab migration and use of the Arabic language in Iran.


A possible solution could be to label Azeris as 'Turco-Iranian' and put them in the Iranian culture group. And maybe, depending on if the area is controlled more by Iranians or Turks, later in the game there could be an event to either make 'Turco-Iranian' a part of the Oghuz group and rename them to 'Azeri', or to integrate them more into Iranian culture group and rename them to 'Azeri' like their Classical-Era Iranic ancestors.

I am not against representing the Turkicization and growing Turkish influence in the area. There should be an event, decision, or mechanic that represents the Turkicization of Azerbaijan. I just want the game to be realistic and not brush over not only the historical Azeri inclusion as an Iranic ethnic group but the great cultural syncrecy between Azeris and Persians after the spread of Islam into the region. Claiming that Azeris at this time were either completely Turkic or Iranic would be untrue. Even in the present day, you see much cultural syncrecy between the Azeri and Persian people. The modern Azerbaijani language symbolizes the Azeri culture as it combines Persian and Turkish elements together.

So please Tinto, don't make the culture of this area just like the black-and-white system that Eu4 had. In my opinion, Ck3 (with the DLCs) does a really good job representing culture, especially through the "Hybrid Culture" system. As much as I hope the Project Caesar culture system will be akin to the CK3 system, I just wish it would show at the very least how one culture can take aspects from two different culture families.
I assume the way it will be in game is there will be a separate Azeri/Tat (Iranian) and Azerbaijani (Turkic) culture.

Also, Iran at the start of the game was majority Sunni, it was the Safavids who converted Iran to Shia Islam because they wanted to be different (not even joking, that was the actual reason). So if anything Shia Islam is an Azerbaijani influence on Iranian society rather than the opposite.
 
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I wonder what others think, but perhaps there should be a higher contrast between the Turkish, Greek (and I suppose Bulgarian) culture colours.

The stripes are getting a bit lost. Maybe make Turkish darker brown? And Bulgarian a completely different colour?
 
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I appreciate that you changed Colour map for Mameluks but for the love of Gods, please change Eretnids colour map to something closer to EU4's


"Byzantine Empire//Eastern Roman Empire//Basileía Rhōmaíōn//[insert here your favorite naming option]"

I always assumeed that prior to Arab conquests it was E.R.E after that Basileía Rhōmaíōn and after 1204 Byzantine Empire.
 
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well it depends if thats only a stereotype based on popularity and tourism or its truly the most common thing that province give . maybe the syriac provinces is famous for wine production but is it really the thing that region make most ? what if it have other things that are more important but less famous?
i dont know myself truly about those regions but its just to keep in mind that maybe some regions dont have the thing you expect because they maybe have other recourses that are less famous but more profitable like lets say a silvermine or something else

There is modern tourism of course but horse breeding is attested as far back as Roman era in Cappodacia and in medieval era Turcoman horse breeds were raised there with wild horses also existing the general area and even today. Certain ideas like Cappadocia supposedly meaning "land of beautiful horses" seem to developed out of myth later but the horse breeding and horse trade is definitely verifiable and where the myths and modern tourism advertisements seem to come from.

As for Syriac wines, to my knowledge areas with Syriac majority definitely did cultivate and traded in wine, this is within Ottoman tax records. It's certainly more sensible than Wheat and Olive provinces next to that silk province which should probably remain as silk.
 
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Currently at peace, although we may review this.
you are right.
Ottomans and byzantines were at war from 1333 to 1337 . and when the war ends Nicomedia becomes ottoman.
The fall of Nicomedia to the Ottomans took place on March 6, 1337. this mean they should start at peace indeed since Izmit in the map is indeed nicomedia and its on ottoman's hands so all should be fine at the start between Byzantines and Ottomans
 
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The map of Anatolia looks interesting.
 
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