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Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

Hello everyone, and welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Maps! I am once again asking for your support back to the duty of showing a new region of the map of the super secret Project Caesar, which this week is Anatolia!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

A beautifully divided Anatolia! The disintegration of the Sultanate of Rûm in the 13th century, caused by the Mongol invasion, led to multiple Turkish Beyliks grabbing power over their area. Probably the strongest in 1337 is the Ottoman one, founded by the Turkoman leader Osman Ghazi, but there are other strong contenders such as the Eretnids, the Germiyanids, or the Karamanids, which will be fighting for hegemony over the region. You might also notice that the Byzantine Empire//Eastern Roman Empire//Basileía Rhōmaíōn//[insert here your favorite naming option] still holds a few positions in Anatolia, the most notable being the city of Philadelphia. Apart from them, other interesting countries in the region are the Despotate of Trebizond, held by the Komnenoi, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and, of course, The-country-known-in-another-IP-as-Hisn-Kayfa, the Ayyubid remnant in al-Jazira. And you might also notice some Genoese outposts, making them important players as well.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastic map is pretty straightforward, as a different dynasty rules each Beylik. We have fixed the issue with the random dynasty names, so no more weird 'the XXXX of XXXX' dynastic names anymore. To spice things up, we could maybe start a Byzantine discussion: Palaiologos, or Komnenos?

Locations:
Locations.jpg

As usual, please consider that dynamic location naming is not yet a thing in this region, and therefore the inconsistencies in the language used. As an additional note of caution, please don’t use the Aegean Islands as a reference or benchmark for comparison, as a review of them is something that we’ve got on our list of ‘to do’. You may be able to see that the location density in the region is gradual, from denser coastal regions to bigger inland ones.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain in Anatolia is quite interesting and unique, as it’s composed of very different features: the central Anatolian Plateau, with a colder climate and more sparse vegetation, is opposed to the rugged and more forested coastlines to the north and south, while only having fluvial flatlands to the west, and in Cilicia (an area that always has been a choke point between Anatolia and Syria. And to the east, the territory becomes increasingly more mountainous, as it approaches the Caucasus.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Anatolia is the first region of the Middle East with cultural and religious minorities added, just in time for this Tinto Maps, so we can have endless discussions about the divide between the Greek and Turkish cultures! Hurray! Now seriously, we’ve made what we think is the most accurate division for 1337, given the scarcity of data. The stripes point to a variation of the pop percentages in each location, from let’s say 70% of Greeks in Izmit or Bursa, to 80% of Turks in Ankara or Konya. We have also added some subdivisions of these cultures, with the Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks; and the Turkomans (you might note a majority of them around Sivas and Malatya), that portray more a ‘class//social grouping’ divide than an ethnic or language divide, as these Turkoman pops are always tribesmen, while we consider the settled population as Turkish. Other than that, we have a good amount of Armenians distributed between the areas of Cilicia and Armenia; Laz people to the north; and Kurds to the east (the brownish-greenish culture). Also, please ignore the chunk of Syria that appears, as the minorities there are not yet done.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

We’re back to interesting religious divisions! We have in Anatolia Orthodox, Sunni, Miaphysite, and Nestorian pops. And if you wonder what are those pink stripes in Thrace, they are a Paulician minority.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

There are some interesting materials distributed all over Anatolia, such as Alum (which was a main export to Italy, usually handled by the merchant republics), Silk, Marble, or Copper. And if you’re wondering about the Spices, they were previously Saffron.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

The market centers of the region are Constantinople to the west, Trebizond to the north, and Damascus to the south. Nothing speaks against a Turkish Beylik conquering one or all of them, or creating a new market center, probably in the middle of the Anatolian Plateau, although probably it will require some infrastructure to make it fully functional.

Location and Country Population:
Pops Locations.jpg

Pops Country.jpg

And populations. Byzantium has some edge over each of the Beylikz, but not if they ally with each other, or if they ally with its Balkanic rivals… Also, have I heard about a 66K Ayyubid challenge?

That’s all for today! We’ll most likely be uploading the French feedback results by the end of next week or at the start of the following one (as next week there's an important bank holiday for this company, Midsommar St. John's Day, and some people will be on vacation a few days), and in the meantime, we'll also be reading and answering your feedback about Anatolia. And next Friday, we will be taking a look at Russia. See you then!

PS: I had a flight today that was delayed, therefore the delay on the DD until an (interesting) hour in which I'll be available for replying.
 
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Zazas are Kurds.
This nonsense is the continuation of imperialistic attempts to divide certain Groups from its culture. Plain "Divide et Impera"
Modern day Zazas identify as such, but linguistically no.
Oh god. This is absolutely wrong in every aspect.
No it is not. And your Shadows of the Desert book mentions Kurds and Medes always separately, and says Kurds and Azerbaijanis have Mede genes.
 
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Modern day Zazas identify as such, but linguistically no.
They are Kurds both linguistically and.... archeologically?
"Краткий историко-этнографический очерк о курдах заза
Курдоев К.К.
Предисловие и публикация текста З.А.Юсуповой
Письменные памятники Востока, 1(20), 2014. С. 180—200.
Публикация представляет собой часть большой рукописной работы Каната Калашевича Курдоева «Исследование заза (Курдская диалектология)», посвященной описанию одного из северных диалектов курдского языка — заза, бытующего на территории Северо-Восточного (Турецкого) Курдистана. В связи с тем, что в специальной литературе принадлежность заза некоторыми авторами оспаривается, автор помимо грамматического описания заза приводит экстралингвистические факторы, свидетельствующие о том, что заза — часть курдского этноса с единой материальной и духовной культурой (общность языка показана в лингвистической части рукописи)."
 
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I will express a very heretical thought.
How far were Azerbaijani and Armenian cultures from each other in the 14th century?

We know that Armenian feudal lords often converted to Islam.
and their support greatly contributed to the success of the beylik Danishmendliler.
 
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You have answered after maybe 10 minutes of what I wrote. You didn't read any of my given sources, and you claim I have said this and that and that these sources are invalid. I am sorry, but this seems just incredible hostile to any of my suggestions to include more factual Kurdish history into the game.
Like medieval Kurds founding the Mede Empire? Give me a break man.
Not sure what is wrong in showing you the sources. Lol first you want them, then you don't look into it and ridicule them as copy and paste. Again ridiculous.
It is a literal copy paste from Wikipedia in the same order though
Republic of Agiri was a proposed formable for Kurdish states to form in the game. So it might be not relevant for the starting point of 1337, but is relevant. Please read correctly.
No state from 1930's should be in the game. This is very clear.
 
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You know taking a look at the Anatolian borders I noticed something weird about the Ottoman- Germiyanid border.

This weird salient makes the border between the two look really off, while the Eskisehir location is almost surrounded.
sketch-1720523041005.png


I think a more curved border would look better, taking that red painted area and giving it to the Ottoman's, something like this perhaps?

sketch-1720523468152.png

Does anyone else agree? Or am I just looking too much into this?
 

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I will express a very heretical thought.
How far were Azerbaijani and Armenian cultures from each other in the 14th century?

We know that Armenian feudal lords often converted to Islam.
and their support greatly contributed to the success of the beylik Danishmendliler.
You know the saying "you are in deep water"? They use it for situations like yours, good luck bro
 
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Trebizond's western border in need of change.


Trebizond in 1337 is ruled by Basil "Megas" Komnenos, who had a stable yet short reign (1332-1340).

After his death the realm was embroiled in an almost lawless period with public order breaking down, it was in those years that the city's of Ordu and Unye were conquered (around 1346-47) by the Haciemirid beylik.
IMG_20240709_150542.jpg

IMG_20240709_145252.jpg

IMG_20240709_144943.jpg

IMG_20240709_152547.jpg


The locations Trebizond should control at the startdate in 1337, (I also wrote the Greek names to those two locations in case they are needed).
IMG_20240709_151232.png


While the Haciemirid beylik should control only one location, Mesudiye.
IMG_20240709_170415.jpg

IMG_20240709_170725.jpg

sketch-1720535034322.png



That is all, any suggestions or corrections is very much appreciated.
 

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They are Kurds both linguistically and.... archeologically?
"Краткий историко-этнографический очерк о курдах заза
Курдоев К.К.
Предисловие и публикация текста З.А.Юсуповой
Письменные памятники Востока, 1(20), 2014. С. 180—200.
Публикация представляет собой часть большой рукописной работы Каната Калашевича Курдоева «Исследование заза (Курдская диалектология)», посвященной описанию одного из северных диалектов курдского языка — заза, бытующего на территории Северо-Восточного (Турецкого) Курдистана. В связи с тем, что в специальной литературе принадлежность заза некоторыми авторами оспаривается, автор помимо грамматического описания заза приводит экстралингвистические факторы, свидетельствующие о том, что заза — часть курдского этноса с единой материальной и духовной культурой (общность языка показана в лингвистической части рукописи)."
I can not read Russian, but Zazaki is classified as Adharic among Northwestern Iranian languages according to Glottolog (a very credible language classification project) which is a sister branch to Kurdish and Laki. But then again, apparently Gorani and Shabaki are also Adharic, but those two are rather firmly a part of Kurds. I think Zazaki might not be distinct enough to be separated from other Kurds, and they literally call themselves Kirmanjki in some regions. So I have to agree with @Tokichiro here and apologise here. Zaza culture does not make a lot of sense.
 
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I can not read Russian, but Zazaki is classified as Adharic among Northwestern Iranian languages according to Glottolog (a very credible language classification project) which is a sister branch to Kurdish and Laki. But then again, apparently Gorani and Shabaki are also Adharic, but those two are rather firmly a part of Kurds. I think Zazaki might not be distinct enough to be separated from other Kurds, and they literally call themselves Kirmanjki in some regions. So I have to agree with @Tokichiro here and apologise here. Zaza culture does not make a lot of sense.
Pavia has indicated that language is a crucial factor in separating in-game cultures. Zaza community is known to have a distinct dialect of Kurdish, and therefore it does make sense to be separated among Kurds. We've got 12+ french cultures, 5+ russian cultures, god-knows-how-many polish cultures.... Separating out another Kurdish culture is a valid consideration, though it's not pre-destined to get a final approval.
 
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Modern day Zazas identify as such, but linguistically no.

No it is not. And your Shadows of the Desert book mentions Kurds and Medes always separately, and says Kurds and Azerbaijanis have Mede genes.
Shadow of the Desert is THE literature for expanded knowledge about Sassanids.
If you want to read more about Kurd-Medi connection, I recommend "The Lost and Untold History of the Kurds" by Soran Hamarash.
The book gives indepth information about kurdish History and its connection to Medes.
 
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Shadow of the Desert is THE literature for expanded knowledge about Sassanids.
If you want to read more about Kurd-Medi connection, I recommend "The Lost and Untold History of the Kurds" by Soran Hamarash.
The book gives indepth information about kurdish History and its connection to Medes.
I'll check it out! But I think the most crucial thing is whether Medieval Kurds had any sense of continuity with Medes and what not. The community is not even sure whether Roman Empire should be formable, and Medes are like very, very old. It crosses the territory of nations impossible to bring back I think.
 
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Pavia has indicated that language is a crucial factor in separating in-game cultures. Zaza community is known to have a distinct dialect of Kurdish, and therefore it does make sense to be separated among Kurds. We've got 12+ french cultures, 5+ russian cultures, god-knows-how-many polish cultures.... Separating out another Kurdish culture is a valid consideration, though it's not pre-destined to get a final approval.
In my opinion this would only make sense if Kurdish is a seperate culture group with its own different sub-culture. I suggestes this in my first post with some possible sub-cultures that could be in the Kurdish culture group.

Kurmanji, Efrini, Botani, Badini, Zazaki, Sorani, Babani, Gorani, Kelhuri, Laki and Luri could be the biggest sub-cultures in it.
 
I'll check it out! But I think the most crucial thing is whether Medieval Kurds had any sense of continuity with Medes and what not. The community is not even sure whether Roman Empire should be formable, and Medes are like very, very old. It crosses the territory of nations impossible to bring back I think.
I can understand that. It was one of many possible formables for Kurds and would only make sense if in Project Ceasar other cultures would be able to from ancient empires of the same kind as it was in EU4 with the Roman Empire, Eranshar, Mongol Empire, etc.
 
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Unfortunately, most of them are fiction. Safavid and Sassanid Empires are both under Persian claims, If you claim that Kurds should form those nations, then they should be under Persian sub-culture. Sure let's implement a formable for Republic of Kurdistan but it never really existed as an independent nation.
Kurds (and any eligible tag in the Iranian or Oghuz culture group for that matter) should be able to form Iran. I don't think Kurds need their own special tag for a restored Median Empire. Identification of the Kurds with the Medes is fairly recent anyways.

This is assuming there's going to be a single "Iran" tag, they might make each dynasty its own tag. I think you could represent the Zands and just a big rebellion and thusly there's no need. We'll have to see how rebellions work.
 
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I can understand that. It was one of many possible formables for Kurds and would only make sense if in Project Ceasar other cultures would be able to from ancient empires of the same kind as it was in EU4 with the Roman Empire, Eranshar, Mongol Empire, etc.
Even there it doesn't really make sense. Rome still exists in 1337. The Mongol Empire still exists in 1337, even if control over the entire thing is nominal at best by that point. A united Persia doesn't exist but the concept of it certainly does, and it in fact it's revived in the EU period (and as you point out, the rulers of Kurdish ancestry chose to identify with Persia, not Media). The Medes as a political entity have been gone for ages at that point and I seriously doubt anyone still identified as them. You'd have to show evidence of medieval Kurds identifying as or claiming to be descendants of Medes to make it a convincing addition, otherwise it's about as realistic as adding the Hittites as a formable.
 
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Even there it doesn't really make sense. Rome still exists in 1337. The Mongol Empire still exists in 1337, even if control over the entire thing is nominal at best by that point. A united Persia doesn't exist but the concept of it certainly does, and it in fact it's revived in the EU period (and as you point out, the rulers of Kurdish ancestry chose to identify with Persia, not Media). The Medes as a political entity have been gone for ages at that point and I seriously doubt anyone still identified as them. You'd have to show evidence of medieval Kurds identifying as or claiming to be descendants of Medes to make it a convincing addition, otherwise it's about as realistic as adding the Hittites as a formable.
Yeah, I can understand that view point. That's true that these exist and the Median Empire didn't. I do understand that logic and can't say much to that. Forming the Median Empire was a proposed formable. If it doesn't suite the logic of the game, that's fine.
The only aspect with your view that I could argue against at this point would be that the Median Empire had a great Impact on the regions and the Kurds.
 
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Sorry, but I have to interject to point out Shadows in the Desert is an infamously bad book. https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2008/2008.09.62/

Do not use it as a source. It is not a well-regarded academic work and is exceptionally poorly researched.
hahahhaah Dude

This is the response by many to Lenderings Review on Farrokh's book.
You didn't even take time to look into it.
"infamously bad book"
Picks one review by one person who got destroyed by many others for his review.
Kaveh Farrokh is one of the leading experts in this field.
 
hahahhaah Dude

This is the response by many to Lenderings Review on Farrokh's book.
You didn't even take time to look into it.
"infamously bad book"
Picks one review by one person who got destroyed by many others for his review.
Kaveh Farrokh is one of the leading experts in this field.

Yeah, a review by a group of nationalists. I'm well aware of this spat, and you will not really do very much to sway me to your myopic viewpoint by linking to the review of nationalists clutching teary-eyed at Cyrus the human-rights defender. I do not really know where you get think you're going to get with this solipsism. Trying to hide behind obscurity isn't going to work. I am well aware of all the tricks and cites which Iranian and Kurdish nationalists use. None of this is to diminish the real contribution of Kurds or deny their role in the middle east, but really.
 
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Kaveh Farrokh is one of the leading experts in this field.
Um, do you realize you are referring to an Osprey book on armies? Not a academic treatise on language (He's done his thesis on that), not a political narrative, not a social or economic history - but an Osprey?

UPD: Even as a military historian K. Farrokh didn't do so well: "Книгу же современного канадского историка иранского происхождения Каве Фарроха (1962 г. р.) о военном деле Ахеменидов, Аршакидов и Сасанидов нельзя признать серьезной работой по теме как из-за ненаучного характера издания, так и вследствие легковесных положений самого автора."
Apparently, you'd better use Sean Gavin William Manning about military matters instead.
 
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