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Tinto Maps #7 - 21st of June 2024 - Anatolia

Hello everyone, and welcome to the seventh edition of Tinto Maps! I am once again asking for your support back to the duty of showing a new region of the map of the super secret Project Caesar, which this week is Anatolia!

Countries:
Countries.jpg

A beautifully divided Anatolia! The disintegration of the Sultanate of Rûm in the 13th century, caused by the Mongol invasion, led to multiple Turkish Beyliks grabbing power over their area. Probably the strongest in 1337 is the Ottoman one, founded by the Turkoman leader Osman Ghazi, but there are other strong contenders such as the Eretnids, the Germiyanids, or the Karamanids, which will be fighting for hegemony over the region. You might also notice that the Byzantine Empire//Eastern Roman Empire//Basileía Rhōmaíōn//[insert here your favorite naming option] still holds a few positions in Anatolia, the most notable being the city of Philadelphia. Apart from them, other interesting countries in the region are the Despotate of Trebizond, held by the Komnenoi, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and, of course, The-country-known-in-another-IP-as-Hisn-Kayfa, the Ayyubid remnant in al-Jazira. And you might also notice some Genoese outposts, making them important players as well.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastic map is pretty straightforward, as a different dynasty rules each Beylik. We have fixed the issue with the random dynasty names, so no more weird 'the XXXX of XXXX' dynastic names anymore. To spice things up, we could maybe start a Byzantine discussion: Palaiologos, or Komnenos?

Locations:
Locations.jpg

As usual, please consider that dynamic location naming is not yet a thing in this region, and therefore the inconsistencies in the language used. As an additional note of caution, please don’t use the Aegean Islands as a reference or benchmark for comparison, as a review of them is something that we’ve got on our list of ‘to do’. You may be able to see that the location density in the region is gradual, from denser coastal regions to bigger inland ones.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We have changed the coloring of the provinces, making them more different, and easier to understand, though. Apart from that, suggestions in this matter are welcomed, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain in Anatolia is quite interesting and unique, as it’s composed of very different features: the central Anatolian Plateau, with a colder climate and more sparse vegetation, is opposed to the rugged and more forested coastlines to the north and south, while only having fluvial flatlands to the west, and in Cilicia (an area that always has been a choke point between Anatolia and Syria. And to the east, the territory becomes increasingly more mountainous, as it approaches the Caucasus.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Anatolia is the first region of the Middle East with cultural and religious minorities added, just in time for this Tinto Maps, so we can have endless discussions about the divide between the Greek and Turkish cultures! Hurray! Now seriously, we’ve made what we think is the most accurate division for 1337, given the scarcity of data. The stripes point to a variation of the pop percentages in each location, from let’s say 70% of Greeks in Izmit or Bursa, to 80% of Turks in Ankara or Konya. We have also added some subdivisions of these cultures, with the Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks; and the Turkomans (you might note a majority of them around Sivas and Malatya), that portray more a ‘class//social grouping’ divide than an ethnic or language divide, as these Turkoman pops are always tribesmen, while we consider the settled population as Turkish. Other than that, we have a good amount of Armenians distributed between the areas of Cilicia and Armenia; Laz people to the north; and Kurds to the east (the brownish-greenish culture). Also, please ignore the chunk of Syria that appears, as the minorities there are not yet done.

Religions:
Religions.jpg

We’re back to interesting religious divisions! We have in Anatolia Orthodox, Sunni, Miaphysite, and Nestorian pops. And if you wonder what are those pink stripes in Thrace, they are a Paulician minority.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

There are some interesting materials distributed all over Anatolia, such as Alum (which was a main export to Italy, usually handled by the merchant republics), Silk, Marble, or Copper. And if you’re wondering about the Spices, they were previously Saffron.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

The market centers of the region are Constantinople to the west, Trebizond to the north, and Damascus to the south. Nothing speaks against a Turkish Beylik conquering one or all of them, or creating a new market center, probably in the middle of the Anatolian Plateau, although probably it will require some infrastructure to make it fully functional.

Location and Country Population:
Pops Locations.jpg

Pops Country.jpg

And populations. Byzantium has some edge over each of the Beylikz, but not if they ally with each other, or if they ally with its Balkanic rivals… Also, have I heard about a 66K Ayyubid challenge?

That’s all for today! We’ll most likely be uploading the French feedback results by the end of next week or at the start of the following one (as next week there's an important bank holiday for this company, Midsommar St. John's Day, and some people will be on vacation a few days), and in the meantime, we'll also be reading and answering your feedback about Anatolia. And next Friday, we will be taking a look at Russia. See you then!

PS: I had a flight today that was delayed, therefore the delay on the DD until an (interesting) hour in which I'll be available for replying.
 
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Yes, and normally, before 1480 the Greek population would be higher, and Turkish would be lower. None of the maps you provided are valuable or make any sense either, between 1914 and 1923, about 353,000 Pontic Greeks were killed and 1.5 million were expelled. But according to your totally real maps there would have been less than 170,000 Greeks in the entire Northern Anatolian region, let alone Pontos. Hell, even in Russia there were more than 150,000 Pontic Greeks at that time, can you understand how much of a joke your argument is? I hope no one from the development team takes Turkish nationalists seriously in matters such as this.
Your claims are exaggerated. Look, another source in French. This source is compatible with Kaspar's source. And do you know that the only nation that is obligated to pay reparation for war crimes is Greece in the Lausanne peace treaty? So the question is how 353,000 Greeks can die when there are at most 200,000 Greeks in the Black Sea coast? How can they be migrated to Greece if they are already dead? We know a lot of Greek is migrated from Black sea cost to Greece after Greece wanted to exchange population.
 

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United Nations document E/CN.4/1998/NGO/24 (WRITTEN STATEMENT /SUBMITTED BY THE INTERNATIONAL LEAGUE FOR THE RIGHTS AND LIBERATION OF PEOPLES, dated 1998-02-24):

View attachment 1152061
The "Ottoman" records are laughable and questionable at best, probably either wrong or deliberately changed in order to aid Turkey deny genосides. I'd like to hear you keep denying the Greek genосide in this thread as well, görüşürüz.
Your source showing total population that came to Greece after the war. They are saying there is 750,000 Pontic Greek estimated, according to which source?
 
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United Nations document E/CN.4/1998/NGO/24 (WRITTEN STATEMENT /SUBMITTED BY THE INTERNATIONAL LEAGUE FOR THE RIGHTS AND LIBERATION OF PEOPLES, dated 1998-02-24):

View attachment 1152061
The "Ottoman" records are laughable and questionable at best, probably either wrong or deliberately changed in order to aid Turkey deny genосides. I'd like to hear you keep denying the Greek genосide in this thread as well, görüşürüz.
Idk how helpful this is, but see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide 'Events' where there's a table comparing Greek (1910-1912) and Turkish (1914) censuses
 
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Look, another source in French. This source is compatible with Kaspar's source.
Yes, because both of them come from the same utterly laughable source. Like, seriously? What am I arguing with here?

1719084571304.png


And the rest of your reply is literally just straight up genocide denial, lol.
So the question is how 353,000 Greeks can die when there are at most 200,000 Greeks in the Black Sea coast? How can they be migrated to Greece if they are already dead?
 
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Yes, because both of them come from the same utterly laughable source. Like, seriously? What am I arguing with here?

View attachment 1152071

And the rest of your reply is literally just straight up genocide denial, lol.
So our sources is laughable but your sources which is not even exist is true right?
I am denying claim backed by nothing.
 
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By the way, if the developers want to divide Kurds into their subdivisions, they should look at Sherefxan Bidlisi. He says there were four groups of Kurds: Lurs (not considered Kurdish today), Guran (Central Kurdish), Kurmanj (Northern Kurdish) and Kalhor (the prevailing tribe at the time among Southern Kurds). Though I would say Kurdish does not need to be subdivided.
I can tell you that in Iraqi Kurdistan, there are three main dialects: Bidani, Hawler, and Sorani. They are similar enough that speakers of one can mostly make themselves understood to speakers or another, but there are significant differences. Bidani in particular is distinct from the other two. There are also smaller groups like Yezidis and Failis with completely different languages who have to use Arabic when talking to other Kurds.
I believe Bedani is considered a dialect of Kurmanji, but I've never been to Turkey, so I don't know how similar they actually are.
I'm not familiar with the term Guran. He may be referring to Hawler and Sorani. The word means "they changed" or "they separated", so it could be referring to any number of groups depending on one's point of view.
I don't know much about the Kurdish committee outside of Iraq, but I have no reason to believe the language situation is any less messy. However a north, central and southern culture would probably meet the paradox standard for depicting the world outside of Europe.
 
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United Nations document E/CN.4/1998/NGO/24 (WRITTEN STATEMENT /SUBMITTED BY THE INTERNATIONAL LEAGUE FOR THE RIGHTS AND LIBERATION OF PEOPLES, dated 1998-02-24):

View attachment 1152061
The "Ottoman" records are laughable and questionable at best, probably either wrong or deliberately changed in order to aid Turkey deny genосides. I'd like to hear you keep denying the Greek genосide in this thread as well, görüşürüz.
This is not a census, it is not related to 1337, and we are not talking about 20th century events. A total of 182.000 Pontic Greeks arriving to Greece is very much possible according to the census I sent you, since there were 190.000 Pontic Greeks in 1890 (and about 170.000 in 1881), which shows a swift increase in population. So how is 182.000 Pontic Greeks arriving in Greece (and almost all Pontic Greeks alive went to Greece with the population exchange, now there aren't any except the Muslim ones) supposed to debunk me saying there were 190.000 Greeks? You are literally proving the census I sent you right. Will you stop being needlessly aggressive and start talking about the topic at hand?
 
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United Nations document E/CN.4/1998/NGO/24 (WRITTEN STATEMENT /SUBMITTED BY THE INTERNATIONAL LEAGUE FOR THE RIGHTS AND LIBERATION OF PEOPLES, dated 1998-02-24):

View attachment 1152061
The "Ottoman" records are laughable and questionable at best, probably either wrong or deliberately changed in order to aid Turkey deny genосides. I'd like to hear you keep denying the Greek genосide in this thread as well, görüşürüz.
You also JUST told me 1.500.000 Pontic Greeks were expelled, and 350.000 Pontic Greeks were killed. Then you sent me a source showing only 182.000 Pontic Greek arrivals in Greece. Did the other 1.300.000 Pontic Greeks just crystallize into the air? Your source indicates 1.100.000 Greeks arriving from Turkey in total, that is 400.000 less than the amount you claimed for the Pontic Greeks alone. Then you call me a nationalist. Your sources contradict each other with only fifteen minutes in between them, how is anyone supposed to take them seriously? Also noting the only source you've posted so far pertaining to 1337 is a 19th century irredentist map.
 
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but does it extend all the way inland? That is not what the Ottoman censuses indicate it was majority Turkish by 1881
1881 is over 500 years after the game starts in 1337. You cannot estimate the Pontic population in 1337 with data from 1881 o_O
You even admit yourself the area was majority Greek in 1480, so there would've been even more Greeks 100 years prior.
 
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When we look at Anatolia's forest percentage, we can see that, while nearly every region loses its forest, Anatolia gains back between 1000-1350. The reason I believe is that Anatolia lost population and farmland. Then it leads to forests to grow back. Fast Turkification of Anatolia can be explained by pastoralist Turks taking Greek farmers' lands to graze their animals.
Farms can support a much larger population than a pastoralist lifestyle. So Greek population needs to migrate or face starvation. And according to Ibni Haldun, Orhan Bey was still living in a tent in 1330. We can claim that a lot of Turcoman replaced a lot of Greeks in western Anatolia already in 1350.
What doesn't make sense to me in that map is that the Büyük Menderes and other river valleys in Western Anatolia are shown to be almost completely forested, while the surrounding hills are shown to be deforested. In the 1850 map it's really extreme, all the surrounding hills are in red, but exactly the places where there is fertile soil for farming and plenty of irrigation are the ones where forest is left untouched? I find it hard to believe that Turks were pastoralist to such an extreme degree even in the 19th century.

forest.png


The same can be said about the Çukurova plain, although in this case it's at least easy to find sources that say that a lot of inhabitants weren't settled (i.e. Turkomans) until the 18th century and Egyptian rule in the 1830s expanded agriculture, especially cotton growing.

Central Anatolia in this map is also surprising, considering that this map that was posted on Reddit recently shows most of these areas as steppes:
1719091458780.png


Of course there's a larger question that always comes up in cases like that: most of the best farmland in the world was once forested, so what happens if large parts of it were only cleared during the game's time period? Or if it fell into disuse due to demographic shift, and then was farmed again later? Should it just be woods, without any reference to the fact that it's actually prime farmland?
 
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1881 is over 500 years after the game starts in 1337. You cannot estimate the Pontic population in 1337 with data from 1881 o_O
You even admit yourself the area was majority Greek in 1480, so there would've been even more Greeks 100 years prior.
The guy speaks about 19th century and specifically says that Greeks were the majority in 19th century. I have continously been trying to get him back on topic ever since. The area should be majority Greek, I am not sure about the exact boundaries, I am trying to ask him his opinion. Not only are you racist but you are apparently also illiterate! Many such cases.
 
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Philadelphia interests me here because I have to wonder how autonomous the city was historically given the circumstances it was in as depicted here vs how much centralized control the player would have over it in game.
 
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Philadelphia interests me here because I have to wonder how autonomous the city was historically given the circumstances it was in as depicted here vs how much centralized control the player would have over it in game.
I am also curious about that. With the game's mechanics not allowing propagation of control over that, it will probably have a bailiff at the game's start, probably giving it a flat 20-40% control. I wonder if it would be better off as a vassal instead.
 
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Sinope had significant Pontic population, but does it extend all the way inland? That is not what the Ottoman censuses indicate it was majority Turkish by 1881, which is before the massacres of Pontic Greeks or the population exchange. Vryonis also notes Turkmens as being numerous in Çandar area and Chepni colonization is notable, but I am interested to hear your thoughts and sources on the Northern Anatolian Greek population in 14th century. 1480 tax records also says there were 50.000 Greek households compared to 38.000 Turkish households, but that is obviously much later. Below are the 1881 Ottoman census maps:View attachment 1152047View attachment 1152048
I feel like 500 years of separation makes 19th century censuses very ineffective. Unless you have a good reason to think otherwise?
Edit, Oh just saw your followup to why you posted that. "Only used them because you said 19th century Ottoman censuses showed those regions as Greek majority, which they didn't."
 
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You also JUST told me 1.500.000 Pontic Greeks were expelled, and 350.000 Pontic Greeks were killed. Then you sent me a source showing only 182.000 Pontic Greek arrivals in Greece. Did the other 1.300.000 Pontic Greeks just crystallize into the air? Your source indicates 1.100.000 Greeks arriving from Turkey in total, that is 400.000 less than the amount you claimed for the Pontic Greeks alone. Then you call me a nationalist. Your sources contradict each other with only fifteen minutes in between them, how is anyone supposed to take them seriously? Also noting the only source you've posted so far pertaining to 1337 is a 19th century irredentist map.
I didn't want to be aggressive but I'm not going to respect a *Removed Personal Attack* who's joking about my people's (and probably his if he takes a DNA test) genосide. Your replies nevertheless explain the Turkish national IQ pretty well. The most agreed upon number is that the Pontic Greek population was 750,000-1,000,000 and the 1.5m number is a total sum of the lives lost and populations deported throughout the years of genocide and oppression.

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Now, after this post, I will not be replying to you anymore as I can imagine what sort of slоb you are, hunched and typing out all of this in front of your shrine for Ataturk after offering your daily prayers.

*Admin Edit to remove personal attack
 
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I didn't want to be aggressive but I'm not going to respect a mutt who's joking about my people's (and probably his if he takes a DNA test) genосide. Your replies nevertheless explain the Turkish national IQ pretty well. The most agreed upon number is that the Pontic Greek population was 750,000-1,000,000 and the 1.5m number is a total sum of the lives lost and populations deported throughout the years of genocide and oppression.

View attachment 1152126
View attachment 1152121
Now, after this post, I will not be replying to you anymore as I can imagine what sort of slоb you are, hunched and typing out all of this in front of your shrine for Ataturk after offering your daily prayers.
Yikes, that's way too toxic man
 
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