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Tinto Talks #1 - February 28th 2024

Hello everyone and welcome to .. yeah, what is this really?

Is this a game called “Tinto Talks?” No.. not really.

First of all Tinto stands for “Paradox Tinto”, the studio which we founded in Sitges in 2020, with a few people moving down with me from PDS to Spain. We have now grown to be almost 30 people. Now, that is out of the way, what about the “Talks” part? Well…

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A long time ago, we started talking about a game as soon as we started working on it. Back in the long almost forgotten past we used to make games in about 8-9 months. I remember us announcing Vicky2 with just 2 mockup screenshots, and half a page of ideas.

This changed a bit over time, with first the rule of not announcing a game until it passed its alpha milestone, in case it would be canceled… as happened with Runemaster. And then when projects started going from an 18 month development cycle with games like EU4 to many years like our more recent games, the time from announcement to release became much closer to the release of the game.

Why does this matter?

Well, from a development perspective communicating with the players is extremely beneficial, as it provides us with feedback. But if it's so late in the development process that you can not adapt to the feedback, then a development diary is “just” a marketing tool. I think games like Imperator might have looked different if we had involved the community earlier and listened to the feedback.

If we look back at HoI4, this was from the first time we talked about Air Warfare, about 10 years ago, and it has not much in common with the release version..
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However, talking about a game for a long long time is not great for building hype either, and to be able to make proper huge announcements is an important part as well.

So what is this then? Well, we call this sub-forum “Tinto Talks”. We will be talking about design aspects of the game we are working on. We will not tell you which game it is, nor be able to tell you when it will be announced, nor when it will be released.

We will be talking with you here, almost every week, because we need your input to be able to shape this game into a masterpiece.

Without you, and your input, that will not be possible.

So what about Project Caesar then?

Project Caesar? Yeah.. At PDS, which Tinto is a "child" of, we tend to use roman emperor/leader names for our games. Augustus was Stellaris, Titus was CK3, Sulla was Imperator, Nero was Runemaster, Caligula was V3 etc.. We even named our internal "empty project for clausewitz & jomini", that we base every new game on Marius.

In Q2 2020, I started writing code on a new game, prototyping new systems that I wanted to try out. Adapting the lessons learned from what had worked well, and what had not worked well. Plus, recruiting for a completely new studio in Paradox Tinto, training people on how to make these types of games, while also making some expansions for EU4.

Today though, even though we are a fair bit away from announcing our new game, we want to start talking weekly about the things we have worked on, to get your feedback on it, and adapt some of it to become even better.

However, we’ll start with the vision, which is not really something you do change at this stage.

Believable World

You should be able to play the game and feel like you are in a world that makes sense, and feels rich and realistic. While not making the gaming less accessible, features should be believable and plausible, and avoid abstraction unless necessary.

Setting Immersion

Our games thrive on player imagination and “what if” scenarios. We ensure both a high degree of faithfulness to the setting which will give a “special feel” to the game. We will strive to give this game the most in-depth feeling of flavor possible.

Replayability

There should be many ways to play different starts and reasons to replay them. Different mechanics in different parts of the world create a unique experience depending on what you choose to play. With a deep and complex game, there should be so many choices and paths that the player should feel they can always come back to get a new story with the same start.

Yeah, sounds ambitious right?

Which games do YOU think represent these pillars well?

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Cheers, and next week, we’ll talk about the most important things in the world.. Besides family, beer, friends, and the Great Lord of the Dark… MAPS!
 
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However, we’ll start with the vision, which is not really something you do change at this stage.

Believable World

You should be able to play the game and feel like you are in a world that makes sense, and feels rich and realistic. While not making the gaming less accessible, features should be believable and plausible, and avoid abstraction unless necessary.

Setting Immersion

Our games thrive on player imagination and “what if” scenarios. We ensure both a high degree of faithfulness to the setting which will give a “special feel” to the game. We will strive to give this game the most in-depth feeling of flavor possible.

Replayability

There should be many ways to play different starts and reasons to replay them. Different mechanics in different parts of the world create a unique experience depending on what you choose to play. With a deep and complex game, there should be so many choices and paths that the player should feel they can always come back to get a new story with the same start.

Yeah, sounds ambitious right?

Which games do YOU think represent these pillars well?

A bit late to the party, but the game that I have fondly in my memory that represents these pillars well is Metal gear solid 3: snake eater.
- cold war era basis with some alternate but plausible history mixed in, and great attention to detail
- the sheer amount of ways to go about the mission was mind altering at that time. I mean, Sons of Liberty was already great, but Snake Eater, whoofff.
- so many things to discover in the game, so many easter eggs even when playing for the 5th time.

Another game I liked a lot was EVE online. Started playing it in 2009 i think, for some 5 years. The great thing about the game was the vastness of everything, very much including the skills, both of the character (learn by playing) and of the player itself. You really had to dive into the game fora to understand the game (a bit like paradox games have as well).
- so many paths to choose, with so many ways to go about it
- for some people the game was only played on the forums in a meta way. There is soooo much eve online lore and history. it's incredible. I mean, just to read any of these stories takes me back to that game
eve online stories
 
Unless you've already made a final decision as the end date, I strongly suggest one before 1765. That means a date early enough that the game wouldn't have to simulate the complex politics of historical revolutions and revolutionary wars on 3 continents. (Well, other than the Corsican Revolution, but that's not so difficult if you don't get into the 1790s.) And it certainly wouldn't have to provide mechanisms for hypothetical equivalents to take place in a Calvinist France, or in an Argentina colonized by Englishmen, or in a Virginia colonized by Moroccans, or in a united Italy, or in a still-independent Aragon. I know this is breaking with tradition and probably won't make me any friends here, but I believe a game set up for a starting date of 1337, and meant to provide as realistic a simulation as possible, would struggle even with something as comparatively simple as the Wars of the 3 Kingdoms. Western Europe and its add-ons in the Americas simply changed too much by then.

Here's a follow-up to that, which hopefully will appease some of those put off by the previous comment: The 1765-1835 period deserves its own game. Yes, there's March of the Eagles, but I'm talking about something more ambitious than that. I'd call it Revolutions or something along those lines, but obviously I'm not the one designing the game.

And while we're on the topic of game titles, I'll go back to not making friends and say that I actually hope Project Caesar is not Europa Universalis V. That is, I hope you decide to call it something else. I'm certain nobody has ever mentioned it in the 24-year history of the series, but the name of the series is very Eurocentric. Downright EU-centric, in fact. Too much so for a game where you can start playing in the Punjab or the Altiplano and spend a good portion of the game unconcerned or even unaware of what's happening in Europe.

What is your approach to the calendar? Obviously the adoption of the Gregorian calendar was a Catholic thing, but the dating scheme will be the same for all players, even if there's not a single Catholic anywhere in their country. (Though it could be interesting to let the human player convert the date into a calendar used by the major cultures in their country. And it could also be extra work for you that only a handful of people give a damn about.) I assume the easiest way to go about this would be to use Gregorian dates starting in 1337.

Unless you want to go really believable and allow for the date to have an effect on the gameplay. "Retrolatitudinarians go to the synamosque every Huītzilōpōchtliday." "We can't fight today, it's the Feast of St. John Coltrane." "Commoners in this province are anxious because the year 46,656 AG is fast approaching and many think the world will end." Then you'd need both a "real" (Gregorian) calendar and a whole bunch of culture-specific calendars. Which is why you'll never go with this, so why am I even proposing it? Never mind.
 
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