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Tinto Talks #10 - 1st of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the final of four on the economy system for our secret game with the code name “Project Caesar”.

Today we will talk about all the things related to trade, including markets, merchants and trades. This talk is heavy on tooltip screenshots, and a lot of concepts to digest, so I recommend checking it through multiple times.

Markets
Let's start with the markets themselves. These are dynamic and will change through the playthrough, as countries can create new markets and disband their old if they so desire.

Each market has a center in a location, and the owner of that location is in control over that market.

Every location and coastal seazone will belong to the most fitting market, which depends on the market attraction of the market, the distance between the location and the market center, diplomatic factors, and more.

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The Riga market has control over much of the Baltic region in the start..

A market has merchants, who have a power depending on buildings and maritime presence in the market, and a merchant capacity which depends on the infrastructure for trade that country has in that market. The Merchant Power impacts in which order exports from a market are executed, as there is not an endless supply of goods in a market. The Merchant Capacity impacts how much goods the merchants can ship.

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This is the source of the Hanseatic League’s merchant capacity in Riga.



As you can see in the market screenshot, every good has a local price, and a supply vs demand value as well, let's take a look at the beer price in the next tooltip.

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Cheap beer, must be paradise…

Prices change every month towards the Target Price, which depends on the supply and demand of the goods in the market, and the current price stability. Price stability can change through the ages as well.

Supply & Demand
The supply of each good in a market depends on several factors.
  • The output from RGO’s
  • The output from buildings
  • Base Production
  • Burgher Trades

So what is ‘Base Production’? Some goods like clay, lumber, sand and stone are produced in every market, without the need for specific RGO’s, even if an RGO with that raw material can produce much more, and there are buildings that can be built to provide these as well.

Also, your burghers will trade on their own, if they have the capacity for it. They will attempt to address needs within the market, and can trade in a slightly shorter range, thus enriching their estate. There are laws and privileges that impact them, like the “Trade Monopolies” estate privilege that the Hanseatic League has granted in the earlier screenshot, which reduces their own merchant capacity by 25% to increase the capacity of the burghers by 100%

So what about demand? This is primarily from the maintenance, input, and construction of buildings, recruiting and maintaining armies and navies, and the demands of the population, but there are more sources as well.

Of course, trades themselves impact supply and demand as well.

Trade
You can use your merchant capacity in a market to either export a good from that market, or import a good from another market. Of course that market needs to be within your trade range, which is not world-spanning in 1337.

A trade is a variable amount of goods shipped from one market to another market, purchasing it for the local price in the exporting market. The longer the distance between the markets, the more capacity each good will require to ship, and higher the maintenance costs will be.

Trades have an impact on the last land location they are in before leaving the market, and the first one they enter in the importing market, giving boosts in development to them over time. A trade always has to trace a path on the map.

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Our merchant power makes us get the amount of goods we want in Riga.

There are also the Sound Tolls, if you pass through Öresund or the Bosphorus to consider.

Diplomacy and Trade
There are many diplomatic factors that impact the trade and market mechanics of Project Caesar.

First of all, you can “Deny Market Access” to a nation owning a market, which will reduce the attraction of their markets on your locations, but also make anyone with merchants in those markets upset with you.

You can also request and/or offer market access preference making it likelier for a country’s locations to belong in a certain market.

If you dislike paying Sound Tolls, you can always try to ask for exemption for it through diplomacy with the country controlling the strait.

Some countries have isolated themselves completely, so you need to negotiate a specific exception to allow you to export or import from their markets.

There is also the possibility to embargo a country, which would block the merchants from that country to trade in your markets, and also to not be allowed to move through your country. Of course, this a legit casus belli, so use with care.

Other aspects to Trade
Each market can have specific goods banned for export or import, with one common example being that muslim markets will ban import and export of wine, beer and liquor.

We mentioned in an earlier Tinto Talks that Markets will have stockpiles, so that surplus can be stored for a rainy day. There are buildings that will increase the amount that can be stored.

There is also food in the markets, with prices adapting to the supply and demand of food as well.

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Västra Götaland är Sveriges Kornbod!

There are also automation options where you can assign trading completely to the AI. You can also lock some trades so that the AI will not interfere with them.

Stay tuned, next week we’ll be talking about mercenaries, levies and regulars!
 
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I think map is still in development when it comes to Finland and Baltic

More or less every single one of their titles has had border mistakes when it comes to Finland, usually anachronisms from the 1947 borders. Whenever I point them out from pre-release screenshots, there's always someone saying "don't worry, it's still in development", then 10 years after release the same mistakes are still in the game. They're generally minor issues, but it's gotten a little old at this point. It's best to at least point them out before release and hope they get noticed.
 
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More or less every single one of their titles has had border mistakes when it comes to Finland, usually anachronisms from the 1947 borders. Whenever I point them out from pre-release screenshots, there's always someone saying "don't worry, it's still in development", then 10 years after release the same mistakes are still in the game. They're generally minor issues, but it's gotten a little old at this point. It's best to at least point them out before release and hope they get noticed.
Yes, fully agree, especially if it repeats in every game but I still hope because well the game is still in first dev diaries (so it is pointed out on time) and the other parts of the map are very detailed and not having such consistency would be weird. Someone said the same for Baltic too. But seeing how they finally abandoned the weird moving of Americas more north than they are makes me think this map won't be just another copy paste from past games.
 
In the picture we see the name KYIV MARKET. But in history it was called KIEV, iirc. Why is it called kyiv? Kyiv is a recent name change. Isn't this a historical game?

Please just make it historical, I'm sure most people do not want modern politics in game.

Greetings from Türkiye.

@Johan

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I think no realistic gunpowder cannon can hope to damage a ship that far, let alone have any chance of aiming accurately. At most a cannonball might randomly fall on the ship and kill one unlucky man, really not enough to enforce a sound toll
Then I am not sure how historically accurate are sound toll in Malacca. Yeah, there are more small islands there, but the distance from Singapore to Batam is similar to the distance between Pillar of Hercules.
 
Would be very interesting to be able to smuggle goods that are banned in some countries, and maybe have some events being such as; You got caught smuggling, but maybe some coin will make the guard forget, or even getting caught be a casus beli.
 
This might be a bit late, but I also think it might be quite important:
We do not know (yet) how the target price is calculated exactly. But is it reasonable to assume that if demand and supply are equal, that also target price and base price are equal?
Combined with this
Trades only happen AFTER all internal demands in the market are satisfied.
it would imply that a market can only export a good, if its target price is lower or equal than the base price. This would be quite problematic for "trade chains" like the silk road or the indian ocean spice trade, as the last exporting market of the "chain" needs to have traget price lower or equal than the base price. Let us take silk as an example and take a base price of 6, the same as luxury cloth (as can be seen in the TT) and we also take a price stability of 20% as well as assume that all prices have "setlled", i.e. reached the target price equilibrium . Let us say silk is exported from China to Central Asia (Samarkand), to Persia, to Constantinople and lastly to Venice (this is at least a segement of one of the more common paths of the silk road). Then, the price in China would be at least 1.2 (0.2*6) and the price in Constantinople would be at most 6. In particular the profit made could be at most 4.8 along the way, i.e. on average at most 1.6 on each individual "step" to Constantinople. This is only 1/5-th of the profit made from trading tar from Riga to London and does not even consider any type of transportation cost despite the comparatively long distance of this route. One should also note that this is an upper bound, as it all depends on the "Desired Amount to Trade". We neither know how this is calculated nor that it actually is the point of maximal profit.
 
I hope you still read new replies on old Tinto Talks..

Could there be a mechanic where we station/send merchants to another market that is in our trade range but lets say not adjacent to our market, and they buy cheap goods from markets that are nearby to the market we sent them and sell the goods in the market they are stationed in? Basically, let our merchants trade in other markets and bring the profit home where our burghers estate could use. Could be a diplomatic action with the market owner to let our merchants trade in their node. Why all this? Because there might be a valuable good in the world we found out, but cannot reach there to trade in that market ourselves, and our provinces wouldn't even be producing the said good, but we still want to trade that and make that big bank.
 
Maybe a bit late to the old talks, but are markets access dynamically changing when a war (or an embargo) occur ? With the whole embargo in your own market possibilities, I find it a bit strange that you can find yourself in a situation where your own locs contribute to a market in which you're embargoed (and therefore you're actually embargoed from your OWN production).
 
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Mention of the Sound Tolls makes me wonder, can you levy tolls in, or even completely block access through, any narrows that you control both sides of? Antwerp is what's on my mind right now; the Dutch didn't allow full freedom of navigation in the Scheldt estuary until 1863.

I wouldn't go too far with the Muslim ban on trading alcohol. Omar Khayyam loved his wine, the Ottomans loved their rakı, and I'm pretty sure Shiraz is a city in Persia. And even if Muslims themselves had all been the teetotalers they were supposed to be, such restrictions didn't apply to religious minorities in their countries, who were free to make and sell the stuff.
 
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I wouldn't go too far with the Muslim ban on trading alcohol. Omar Khayyam loved his wine, the Ottomans loved their rakı, and I'm pretty sure Shiraz is a city in Persia. And even if Muslims themselves had all been the teetotalers they were supposed to be, such restrictions didn't apply to religious minorities in their countries, who were free to make and sell the stuff.
That said, one way religion can influence market dynamics is fasting. Certain faiths will have restrictions on certain food types during specific periods.