• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Talks #13 - 22nd of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we give out top-secret information about our upcoming unannounced game with the code name Project Caesar. This time we will touch a little bit on the aspect of religion in this game.

Vx1JCi0SoIWC_RmTIABR5snAPEW7QH88Ou7sQF4_68eXfurIipvfOB1Qrem_EmgkojIrk4PtQRImFu8qP6SKvEfv7HWXWPiezhibwcnYZOP58S42b3cfEGqm6O7DRp_D8CMBgY3Mka_qR5rChmo7R9w


Every country, pop, or character has a religion they adhere to. This impacts their relationship with the place they currently are, and their relationship with others in the world.


Cb9pnYM2UZhOJuDXSumhcymKxx2JoY_R62xRWwYAFWTr7CxP-zi4GRFUxyqOJu-L8BRZPrucPIpVemt_xPAZeOFo6OrkXuTq1TE8ZJtDAVTFZh38tk_KbqcbmCZaZVRuircaN3rG_dlGRp7ytUkXkPA

This is the religious setup of Aragon in 1337.

Every religion in Project Caesar belongs to a Religion Group, such as Christianity or Paganism. Fellow religions in the same group consider each other to be merely Heretic, whereas religions in different groups condemn each other as Heathen.

Every religion has a specific view of other religions as well, that ranges from Kindred to Enemy, which impacts relations between countries of different faiths, and how populations of another faith view your country.

Each country also has their own tolerance of their true faith, of heretics, and of heathens, which impacts how happy or angry the population will be depending on which country they belong to.


P3fulF18GNuLbeWWGxQEoTswmW53zqebOn67gFrZgYiFZzPc50UCdUMGekW2CpW9CcwFK4UPKqghkR5zuap96Byb91DDDmPZ3z7zyfdNxlk2Y8iANF0Uebf8bDGbKO4TA-bpg_GgdELXl_MpQR9hX0Q

The Same Religion here, is from the law relating to valid heirs.

The religious unity of your country has a really large impact on the satisfaction of your Clergy Estate.

Important to know is that in Project Caesar, you just do not send missionaries to your locations and eventually they have changed religion. Here conversion is a slower process, which relies on government activities and infrastructure.


YY6_rIi-5JIE7LribzG4wD9uCXOZkyRMh_lFe75rrkAU1pQW8kjiGTY3esOhQgKjtHd_rT0ynXABgm0LVXdBsKVTeVKay_3E2-r2m10aHdLvBE-E8GDT8ffYlf_XVccq_5CtV-umvgnmHtXlIM1RUbA

A unique building for Muslim countries that has a tiny impact on conversion.

Each religion belongs to a group, which impacts which tolerance is applied and how religions interact with each other. Religions in the same group are viewed as heretics, but those of another group as heathens.

The groups we currently have are, but that may change as we continue to develop the game.
  • Christian
  • Muslim
  • Eastern
  • Dharmic
  • Zoroastrian
  • Manichean
  • Judean
  • Andean
  • Pagan

cpBNm-1BHHQ4tLRTSf4UHDmm0eLzrewF9YnmUhGrFFUsVDRKJjdF0UeFLrpXVyReQJNeP_9t7sq8mpjHQJYWiM6PmtJQjtuVWyvCQWnINZRC1GofCobMRaG7f4XVcyXh041J-FN1mqibkEcF6Iwzeos

The current Christian religions. Take into account that they are very much WIP!

In some games we have made there have not been any major differences between religions, merely being different modifiers, and while some religions in Project Caesar are still only a few modifiers, many will have mechanics. Right now, we have made unique mechanics for Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, the various Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, Nahuatl, Hinduism & the Inti religion. Each of these will get their own unique later development diary.

Now every religion will still have some modifiers that describe them, in many cases it is things that enable or disable certain mechanics. Some examples include the fact that countries with Jain as their state religion can not start wars without a casus belli, and that Calvinist countries will never reroll the dice in a battle, as everything is preordained.

Stay tuned for next week, where we talk about another completely new feature that adds flavor to the game.

Sadly, I can’t reply today, as I am at some management thingie in Stockholm, but @Pavía will help you out!
 
  • 250Like
  • 93Love
  • 16Haha
  • 10
  • 4
  • 2
Reactions:
About religions:
I think having karaim alongside rabbinical Judaism would be good. The decline of karaism was most likely a long process and its golden age wasn't too long ago at start.
I also think the Armenian Apostolic Church should be its own thing from Alexandria since it has been isolated for long and is almost an ethnoreligion at this point. It would allow more Armenian flavor.

About the map:
Why is Catholicism colored in Mamluk vomit?
And IMO the Golden Horde converted not long enough ago so their population shouldn't be full Sunni.
You may have noticed that North Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia don't have stripes. That's because we haven't added the minorities there yet, which will be an extremely fun task for one of our content designers for this summer.
 
  • 80Haha
  • 21Like
  • 12Love
  • 7
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
From elsewhere:
"A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop."
?
10 people in a pop
 
Begging, pleading, crying that Shintoism isn’t just worship the emperor 18th century Meiji larp and actually has more influence from Buddhism and Confucianism.

If we’re real? Shintoism shouldn’t even be called that in the 1300s, we’re just past the Kamakura age of Buddhism where dozens of schools and traditions emerged. If you really want to do Shinto emperor stuff do it with the Kokukagu movement in the 1600-1700s, not in 1337 or whatever the start date is.
Shinto will have many Buddhist elements in it, besides many other exclusively Japanese mechanics.
 
  • 35Like
  • 12
  • 3Love
Reactions:
@Pavía @Johan

Hello,

(Yes, this was prepared in advance)

Big eurasian nomad nerd here (I guess you’ll see me again for the horde dev diaries lol) and here are some (hopefully constructive) opinions regarding the portrayal of religion in the beautiful steppe.

Firstly and most importantly of all, I really think that « tengrism » should rather be named « altaic shamanism » (to distinguish it from "sibirian shamanism" which you decided to depict, which is... interesting) as it is non controversial and better reflects the historical reality and diversity of religious phenomena among altaic people.

The name « tengrism » corresponds to the modern, panturkic, revivalist movement spearheaded by not-so-frequentable turkish supremacists like Nihal Atsiz and para-f*scist groups like the Grey Wolves. Their connection to the idea of "tengrism" is abundant online. It was later used by central asian authors in the 1990s in a context of a search for national identity and independence and has since, unfortunately, pervaded popular discourse.

« Tengrism » is therefore loaded with heavy monotheistic bias/projection and ahistorical rigid dogmatism from all sides (including in the West) and its careful historical analysis does not hold up to scrutiny.


Where does « Tengri » come from ?


The first recorded use of the name « Tengri » by turko-mongol societies is the 8th century Orkhon inscription, found in present day Mongolia, using the Turkic runic script and chinese (it will be really important soon !). It details the Göktürk foundation myth and their extensive interactions with the chinese Tang empire.

The Orkhon inscriptions indeed prove the belief in « Tengri », but by the ruling Ashina elite only at best, and cannot be possibly considered as representative of the belief systems of all turko-mongol populations of that period.

In this context, the reference to « Tengri », or should I rather say « (Kök) Möngke Tengri/Eternal (Blue) Sky/Heaven » is made first and foremost in the context of legitimizing political authority, not in an exclusively religious doctrine/text. This is a tradition that will perdure in later turko-mongol societies, even after the conversion to Islam or Buddhism (M. Favereau, The Horde : How the Mongols changed the World, 2021).

Famous exemples are its mention as a foreword of virtually all imperial decrees/edicts of all the constituent parts of the Great Mongol State such as the Imperial Seal of the Great Mongols (internal politics, source 1) or Arghun Khan’s letter to King Philip IV of 1289 (foreign relations, source 2) . Here is also a great example of « Tengri » coexisting side by side with Muhammad from the Ilkhanid period: « in the might of the everlasting Heaven, in the support of prophet Muhammad », that could either be taken as religious syncretism or a separation of the political and the religious (source 3, big props to this guy btw, he does an excellent job at making primary sources accessible).

Consequently, Tengri should be apprehended as political concept first and foremost, as it is the source, divine yes, of ultimate political authority.

In that sense, the use of « Tengri » is much much closer to the political chinese concept of Ti’an (as in Mandate of Heaven) than anything else. And it makes perfect sense. They both relate to the big blue blob above our heads that is commonly translated as « Heaven », the impersonal will from which derives sovereignty. Eurasian nomadic societies such as the Xiongnu, Rouran, Göktürks, Xianbei and chinese elites not only all practiced well historically attested intermariage for centuries (heck the founder of the Göktürks himself, Bumin Khan, was married to a chinese princess), but they also actively participated in chinese politics by forming numerous northern polities during the so-called « Upheaval of the Five Barbarians » period and later (Northern Wei, Khitan-Liao, Jin are but famous exemples).

Considering that the Orkhon inscriptions, written in chinese, were made in a context of asserting turkic sovereingty from the Tang after centuries of cultural exchanges aforementioned above, explaining « Tengri » without having « Ti’an » in mind seems difficult. Some go further, even connecting the etymologies of « Tengri » and « Ti’an » (such as it can be read here : source 4) but I personally wouldn’t go as far, since I’m not a linguist.

Final nail in the coffin, the second direct primary source recording extensively the name « Tengri », written in turkic by a manicheist uyghur monk in a manicheist monastery using manicheist terminology in the 9-10th century is the oracle book Irk Bitig. And how does it start ? « I am Ten-si », a title that is definitely not turkic and that fellow sinologists will easily recognize, translated as « the Son of Heaven » (source 5).

The Orkhon inscription and Irk Bitig are both used by tengrist revivalists as the foundation of turkic mythology/tengrism without any context (nor any mention of chinese obviously). The entirely religious nature of the latter is uncontested, as it is exclusively an oracle book after all (and was found in a buddhist monastery anyway). But virtually all experts on the matter except one agree that it is either a manicheist text, either a buddhist one, either syncretism from both heavily inspired by contemporary tibetan oracle books (source 6).

Even Jean-Paul Roux, the dissenting opinion here, famous turkologist, still nonetheless argues (in the commentary of my own edition of William of Rubruck’s travel to Khan Möngke’s court, 1253-1255, source 7) that the position of « Tengri » as the supreme/central deity is extremely relative and follows periods of centralization of power under various steppe dynasties (such as the early Göktürks or Chinggisid Mongols since both later adopted Buddhism).

I kindly invite you to read again any translation of the Orkhon inscriptions on your own with Ti’an in mind if my argument is not convincing enough (here’s a link source 8).


What did the altaic populations believe in ?


The word « tengri » (I will not use a capital letter here to distinguish it from the political « Tengri ») is definitely present in some altaic religious expressions, such as the modern mongols. However, this term refers to a multitude of « minor natural spirits », as shamanism is animistic in nature, not a single, supreme, central deity. O. Purev and G. Purvee, Mongolian Shamanism, 2006, present the traditional 99 types of « tengri » typology following a north/south-east/west distinction, with which the shaman interacts through trance.

Evidently, due to the massive influence of the political « Tengri » and the fact that « tengger » litteraly means « sky » in mongolian, a spirit is associated with Heaven, is definitely worshipped and even granted proeminence. However, this is far far far from universal, and cannot possibly be granted the supreme, monotheistic-like status, used my modern tengrist revivalists.

But even if mongolian shamanism recognizes the naming "tengri", it does not matter. I have yet to come across a single academic source that talks about (mongolian) "tengrism" instead of "shamanism" that is not directly linked or refering to panturanist pseudoscience.

In his, little bit outdated, yet referential, book on the matter (Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy, 1951), M. Eliade, does a great job of presenting the existing huge diversity of creation myths, recorded through centuries of oral tradition, present in sibero-altaic populations, some of which completely ignore the « Eternal Blue Sky » both as a word (« tengri ») and as a concept (« Tengri »). They rather use other metaphors when speaking of supreme/creator gods such as divine animals (deers, eagles, ravens, etc) or world-tree figures.

What definitely unifies all these different religious expressions is the person of the shaman though, as well as ancestor worship (Rubruck’s testimony is a reference here, as the felt figurines used by the medieval mongols that he described later disappeared and were replaced with buddhist forms of worship).

For all the listed reasons, and due to the problematic political nature and origin of the modern tengrist reconstructionist movement, I think that the name « (altaic) shamanism » is more appropriate in game.


How to portray shamanism in game ?


I share M. Eliade’s opinion that altaic shamanism cannot be considered a religion in the traditional western acadamic sense. The term « religion » itself being heavily connoted with protestant scholarly bias (and applying it to altaic societies would therefore amount to a prime exemple of orientalism). This view is also shared by more recent scholarship under the de/post-colonial lens (such as this one, source 9).

Indeed, altaic shamanism has no centrally codified and accepted dogma (that would position « Tengri » as a supreme deity, apart from the zealous modern ethno-nationalist reconstruction I guess), no institutionalized clergy (or priestly class/estate) and no communal ceremonies of worship.


Firstly, there is an issue in representing the shamans as a separate estate/pop class and my opinion is that they simply should not, as it is already the case in EU4.

Indeed, the shaman is nor a priest, nor a member of any self-constituted and organized, independent clergy : as someone that it in contact with the spirits, he serves the double social function of an oracle and of spiritual-physical healer, which makes it difficult to represent as a unified and coherent « class » or estate.

Members of the mongolian aristocracy themselves can also have shamanic attributes : from Chinggis Khan’s supposed mystical powers as reported in the mongolian imperial historiography, frequent accusations of witchcraft to eliminate political rivals during succession crises (such as the case of Fatima and Töregene Khatun) and Khan Möngke famously being busy burning bones to make political decisions as reported by Rubruck.

In that sense, shamans belong more to the nobility/aristocracy estate than anything else (even more so since the function is often hereditary, as the shaman is literally possessed by the spirit(s) of one or multiple ancestors, which leads to many instances of local elites gatekeeping the shamanistic functions inside their families for generations as recorded by Eliade).

A good illustration is the figure of Teb Tengri from Juvani’s 13th century History of the World Conqueror. Even if, according to Juvani’s account (that is not mentioned in other sources), he blessed and granted the name/title « Chinggis Khan » to Temujin, it is wrong to see him as a high priest or any kind of resemblance to the Pope-Emperor relationship of medieval Europe.

Indeed, if he was able to do so, it was first and foremost due to the fact that he was Temujin’s step brother (as genealogy is THE major aspect of political legitimacy in steppe societies), not because he was a shaman.

His further elimination not only lead to a strengthening of the crown and serves as a cautionary tale for dissenting members of the (chinggisid) aristocracy but also clearly shows the inexistence of political power backed up by shamanistic spiritual beliefs. Within the framework of turco-mongol shamanistic traditions, the Khan does not need shaman intermediaries to legitimize his rule : he is already the physical embodiment of the will of Heaven himself (through his sülde for those that want to go deeper :p).


Secondly, there is also an issue with linking the clergy/priestly estate in the game with shamans/pops belonging to that religion. Indeed, there has be no recorded attempt at mass proselytism by any shamanistic leaders nor any war waged in order to enlarge or protect the believers of that faith. Hell, there is hardly even a mention of any single, coherent, community of believers similar to the notions of church, ummah or sangha until nationalism enters the scene and shamanism is associated with nationality (source 10).

Therefore, a politically-motivated increase in numbers of that population (for exemple through the use of a missionary in EU4) was never actively sought and definitely never lead in return to an increase in political power for the shamans.


Other religions as tools for legitimacy


However, the Khans definitely relied on other religious clerics to increase their own political legitimacy. As an exemple, when asked by Rubruck how can the Khan tolerate so many different religious congregations in his capital, his guide answers that the Khan cares little for which religion is ultimately true and he invited them so that they all prey their own gods for the Khan’s longevity and the State’s welfare.

Therefore, steppe societies in game should have a clergy estate and it should, imo, rather represent the actually existing, hierarchically organized religious class of the different cults present in the steppe (christians, buddhist, muslims, taoists, etc) similar to the calculations of the dhimmi estate.

Indeed, not only these groups were granted actual concrete privileges such as tax exemptions, land grants and proeminent political advisorial positions (like the famous taoist Qiu Chuji, confucean Yelü Chucai or the buddhist monk Phags-Pa) but were effectively supported by the Mongol Khans in order to boost their own authority, which absolutely fits within the game proposed mechanics.


Bonus yet essential : portrayal of buddhism in the mongolian plateau


Accessorily, I hope that Project Caesar will not perpetuate the wrong assumption that buddhism was not present in Mongolia until the 17th century, and will represent ingame a sizeable community there at the start date

This outadated view is the result of deeply ingrained, misinformed, evolutionist views of eurasian history dating back from the 19th century (of which R. Grousset’s Empire of the Steppes, 1939, is the archetype) and that are still propagated by « pop » historians such as J. Diamond, N. Harrari, D. Graeber or even J. Weatherford.

According to this view, following the old civilization-barbarism paradigm, nomadic pastoral societies are fundamentally incapable of producing the surpluses required to build State structures and hereafter, settled monastic communities. Definitely check out the magistral work of the holy trinity C. Atwood, D. Sneath and L. Munkh-Erdene if you want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes and how absolutely wrong this is.

There is well attested archeological evidence of a continuous buddhist presence in the mongolian plateau since the Xiongnu era (also makes sense due to its position north of the Silk Road, the way through which buddhism spread to China).

For exemple, the Bugut inscription found in Western Mongolia, from the Göktürk era, written in sogdian and brahmi scripts (both liturgical buddhist scripts of that period) records Taspar Khan, 4th Khan of the Göktürks, (himself a buddhist convert according to chinese sources) and his patronage of the buddhist community (sangha) (source 11), which proves that conversion did not only concern the elites, but also the masses.

Rows of ruins of buddhist stupas (including a 14m high one !) were also found at the site of Ordu Baliq, the former Uyghur capital in the Orkhon valley (source 12). The construction of a big buddhist temple in Qaraqorum started during the reign of Ögedei Khan and was completed during Möngke’s era, as attested by both archeological evidence and contemporary testimonies (source 13).

Rubruck (him again !), perfectly able to recognize oriental forms of christianity such as nestorianism, even describe his hilariously confusing encounter with what he describes as a specific group of « misguided christians » for they « do not believe in God » yet « have monks, bishops (lama’s conic hats ?), worship icons of saints (bodhisattvas ?) and wear the sign of the cross (swastika ?) on their hands ». If the parallels are not enough, he calls them « tuins » from the mongolian « toyin », used to talk about buddhists exclusively (source 14).

My post is already long enough so I will not detail Khubilai Khan’s conversion to buddhism and its adoption as the State religion of the Great Yuan, but I will just point out that it definitely did not happen in a vaccuum, merely out of political pragmatism or whatever is often claimed. You can find more here : source 15.

After the retreat of the Chinggisid court to Mongolia in 1368, the Northern Yuan dynasty keeps thinking itself as a buddhist monarchy : it keeps both the buddhist phags pa script and buddhist institution of preceptor of the realm instituted by Khubilai Khan (my source here is a great yet unfortunately untranslated book, D. Méda’s Bouddhisme de Mongolie, 2016).

Therefore, the puzzling (for conventional historians at least) decision of Altan Khan to install/create the institution of the Dalai Lama in Tibet in the 16th century, is the result of the fact that he evolves in a political environment saturated with ideas of buddhist kingship and is attempting to replicate the model of the patron-client relationship established between Khubilai and Phags-pa.


Therefore, considering 1/ the continuous, historically attested presence of a buddhist community in Mongolia, 2/ the widespread use of buddhism as a tool for political legitimacy by Mongols in front of other Mongols, and 3/ the persistent promotion of it by generations of Chinggisid Khans since (at least) Ögedei on the territory of Mongolia itself, it is wrong to assume that, as it is too often claimed, « most Mongols ignored buddhism after Khubilai’s conversion and remained shamanist in their belief » or « The Mongols returned to shamanic traditions after the collapse of the Yuan dynasty in 1368. »


P.S. My apologies for Jürchen/Manchu enjoyers as my research did not extend (yet !) to them.


TLDR : Tengrism never existed, shamanism does. Hordes should have dhimmi-like estate instead of clergy. Buddhism should be present in significant numbers at game start in Mongolia.
To add on to this. "Steppe Nomads" were actually highly advanced and rigidly stratified societies with castes and laws governing movement of entire clans and tribes. Steppe nomads were not anarchic barbarians who roamed from field to field pillaging. Every family had allotted territory and the bureaucracy of the Steppes was massive and universal. Furthermore. The idea of "culture" on the Steppes really wasn't a thing. It was more family and clan than anything else. It can be fairly reasonably argued that in the modern definition of the word "culture" the Steppe had a unified Rouran/Xiongnu and/or a Turkic (depending on who the Khagan was at any given time) culture until Temujin. Temujin was the first Steppe ruler to truly define a cultural identity, the Mongolian identity, as more than a family or clan identifier.

I know it's a pipe dream, but I really feel like the Hordes should have their bureaucratic apparatuses properly represented, and that the various tribes and clans of the Hordes are represented as estates. I would love for Steppe Nomads to be portrayed as the deeply intricate and complex societies that they were as this game takes place in a time period where some of them are still around and still important.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
  • 24Like
  • 18Haha
  • 4Love
  • 2
Reactions:
From elsewhere:
"A single unit of people in a single location can be any size from one to a billion as long as they share the same three attributes, culture, religion, and social class. This unit of people we tend to refer to as a pop."
?
132 Catholic Swabian Peasant
10 pops convert
122 Catholic Swabian Peasant
10 Lutheran Swabian Peasant
 
  • 7
Reactions:
You've said a lot of times that animists are WIP, but what about east Asia? China entirely Buddhist (outside of Yun-Gui) doesn't make much sense, and neither does a Buddhism-free Japan. I imagine there'll be another pass?

And is shinto considered "eastern" or just pagan?

Also I know it's too early to say much about specific modding features, but overall where would you expect the power of religion modding to fall, within on a line of CK3 > EU4 > Vicky3? Thinking in particular about ability to make things that feel entirely entirely new (not noticeably redskins) to the player.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
That should probably be reversed. Historically, "Shinto" never really existed in its modern context before the era of Kokugaku scholarship in the Edo Period. Before that, Shinto as a concept was not a thing anyone would have recognized. Kami Worship was varied from place to place. Village to village even, it was highly decentralized outside of the Imperial Cult. Buddhism was dominant in Japan until after World War 2. Shinto Shrines were inside of Buddhist temples most of the time, and as well Buddhist sects and Monasteries were landholding elites with levy armies of their own and contributed heavily to the power politics of Japan. For as many powerful Shugo, Clans, and other various forms of Warlords as there were there were just as many Temples and Sects that held wide swathes of land themselves.

Please reconsider this. I believe the best way to handle it would to have Mahayana be the dominant religion in Japan with "Kami Worship" as a minority faith. That would be the most historically authentic. Shinto is just a fantasy faith in this time period, even as an umbrella term for Kami Worship, Kami Worship was still less influential than Buddhism. Buddhism was hugely connected to politics in Japan, Kami Worship was not after Buddhism took over.

I really want to see a Japan that has the landholding Buddhist sects represented. I'd love to see a map tag that can spawn for Ishiyama Honganji for example or other such regional powerholding Temples. Even an Osaka tag if possible as a spawnable republic vassal.
Just reinserting this as more people post about Shinto.
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions: