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Tinto Talks #13 - 22nd of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we give out top-secret information about our upcoming unannounced game with the code name Project Caesar. This time we will touch a little bit on the aspect of religion in this game.

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Every country, pop, or character has a religion they adhere to. This impacts their relationship with the place they currently are, and their relationship with others in the world.


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This is the religious setup of Aragon in 1337.

Every religion in Project Caesar belongs to a Religion Group, such as Christianity or Paganism. Fellow religions in the same group consider each other to be merely Heretic, whereas religions in different groups condemn each other as Heathen.

Every religion has a specific view of other religions as well, that ranges from Kindred to Enemy, which impacts relations between countries of different faiths, and how populations of another faith view your country.

Each country also has their own tolerance of their true faith, of heretics, and of heathens, which impacts how happy or angry the population will be depending on which country they belong to.


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The Same Religion here, is from the law relating to valid heirs.

The religious unity of your country has a really large impact on the satisfaction of your Clergy Estate.

Important to know is that in Project Caesar, you just do not send missionaries to your locations and eventually they have changed religion. Here conversion is a slower process, which relies on government activities and infrastructure.


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A unique building for Muslim countries that has a tiny impact on conversion.

Each religion belongs to a group, which impacts which tolerance is applied and how religions interact with each other. Religions in the same group are viewed as heretics, but those of another group as heathens.

The groups we currently have are, but that may change as we continue to develop the game.
  • Christian
  • Muslim
  • Eastern
  • Dharmic
  • Zoroastrian
  • Manichean
  • Judean
  • Andean
  • Pagan

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The current Christian religions. Take into account that they are very much WIP!

In some games we have made there have not been any major differences between religions, merely being different modifiers, and while some religions in Project Caesar are still only a few modifiers, many will have mechanics. Right now, we have made unique mechanics for Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, the various Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, Nahuatl, Hinduism & the Inti religion. Each of these will get their own unique later development diary.

Now every religion will still have some modifiers that describe them, in many cases it is things that enable or disable certain mechanics. Some examples include the fact that countries with Jain as their state religion can not start wars without a casus belli, and that Calvinist countries will never reroll the dice in a battle, as everything is preordained.

Stay tuned for next week, where we talk about another completely new feature that adds flavor to the game.

Sadly, I can’t reply today, as I am at some management thingie in Stockholm, but @Pavía will help you out!
 
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That depends on how you deal with the minorities of your country.
Does the game allow for me to choose how I deal with each religious group individually, say has a Christian Country could I be giving protection to my Judean population while discriminating the Muslim population like for example happened in Portugal prior to the expulsions.
 
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The one thing I feel might be lacking is a "radical reformed" group to cover eg. anabaptists and similar. (something something magisterial and non-magisterial reformers, etc.) which doesen't *quite* fit under "Calvinism".
 
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At least please tell me you haven't make the Ethiopian Jews follow rabbinical Judaism again. They haven't heard of the fall of the second Temple until the twentieth century, let alone the rabbis' Oral Law.
 
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Are there going to be mechanics to differentiate between same-religion-but-different-country relations? In EU4 it was as if there were a big Lutheran Church and a big Calvinist Church and that they were all fully aligned, but many countries started their own national Churches, and in some cases there was severe fragmentation even inside one country, like all the splits in the Church of Scotland.
 
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This level of depth makes me, as a medievist thats studying to specialize in the subject of medieval christianity, VERY excited for whats to come;
My only question is what made you guys decide to divide the Bogomilists from the "Krstjani" since both are cathegorizable as "Cathars".
 
I second the suggestion regarding representing Anabaptism in some form as a distinct religion. Never going to wind up a majority anywhere, but the pops got moved around a lot at least and had some interesting aspects (refusal to take up arms, for instance).
 
Maybe it's just me, but I think that there should be supergroups, similar to how they exist in ck3, ie abrahamic, eastern etc. Why? Because i am going to be honest, even with all the differences between Islam and Christianity and least there are enough commonalities that i (as a westerner) can understand a lot of it as a given, if given an explanation. I can't say the same thing about an eastern religion, like Buddhism etc. They operate on entirely different morality systems with very different rules, different cosmologies, with very different rules etc. It is like trying to grasp a world where the law of gravity has never functioned. This should make conversions much harder, make mutual understanding much harder etc.

For example, within Taoism, Confucianism, etc. good and evil do not mean the same thing they mean in the west. In the west good and evil are intrinsic values, and refer to stuff like murder etc as intrinsically evil acts. In the east, this is not the case per se. Rather because of good and evil being extrinsic values, murder is not evil because you killed someone, but rather it is evil because you have destroyed/impacted the order of society. This is also why they have a lot of "there is no good or evil" or "good and evil is just a matter of perspective" type of thing going on and why harmony is emphasized to such a large degree.
 
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As it seems that religions outside of Christianity are more of placeholders for the moment until being detailed, can we expect multiple sects of Hinduism instead of the unhistorical monolith that it is in game? Around this time, Sauryism would still be around in North India (albeit declining); Ganpatism would be prevalent in the Maharashtra region; the rapidly growing Vaishnavite tradition would be spreading in North, East and South India; Shrautist minorities would exist in Kerala; etc. As an avid Asia enjoyer, I do hope that Asia gets the attention is deserves and even more detail that was invested into it in EU4.
 
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Out of curiosity, what's the Orthodox view on Muslims as opposed to Catholics shown as in-game? Because going off the crusades and the sentiments expressed by various scholars throughout the centuries (Muslim, Orthodox, and Catholic alike, and through recorded court proceedings in places like Constantinople- where muslim dignitaries took precedence over most western church officials), then they should be treated about the same at a bare minimum.

In places like Byzantium muslims should generally be viewed more favorably, even, But it doesn't seem like these things will vary region-by-region
and the non-dynamicness of these systems does worry me, bc those views did shift (in either direction) throughout the game's general timeframe

(also please either rename or drastically reduce shintoism, it wasn't prevalent (or even notable) in japan till the 18th century at the earliest)
 
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Eastern religion group? Does that mean that the various Chinese belief systems (because Daoism and Confucianism are not exactly religions) are grouped together with Shinto? I am especially curious how Confucianism will be represented. It was always weird to me that Christianity and Islam where differentiated whereas Confucianism was just one blob.

When I was writing my BA thesis, I learned that there are at least three major schools in Confucianism, and the discussion somewhat revolves around the role of Confucius. There are two schools of Han Confucianism, the New Text and Old Text. Old Text scholarship, which was forged during Wang Mang's reign, would stress that Confucious was just a chronologist or historian. In contast, the more ancient New Text scholarship (yes, confusing terminology) of the Early Han would depict Confucious almost like a messiah and stress supernatural elements in their interpretation of the Spring and Autumn Annals. In Neo-Confucianism (~ mid 9th century), however, Mengzi was somewhat elevated and the importance of the Spring and Autumn Annals (and thus Confucius) reduced.

This debate culminated in Kang Youwei's Hundred Days' Reform of 1898 which, as we all know, failed. Michael Nylan's work on the Five "Confucian" Classics was very informative about this topic.

Is there any chance that these three major schools are somehow represented?
Yes, they're grouped together with Buddhism and Shinto.
 
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Ok, I will take the opportunity to nitpick:
  • Please rename Nahuatl and Inti to Teotl and Huacaist respectively. Nahuatl is a language and Inti is just one god, which was secondary even among the Incas until the 1440s, not to mention all the other dominant regional cultures in 1337. Teotl is a Nahuatl word for divinity, and Huaca a sort of Andean fetish/god.
  • I say that the Huastecs should not be Mayan, culturally or religiously. They migrated away before the rise of the historical Maya civilization and thus share little with them beyond a somewhat related language. The blanket non-Nahua, non-Maya Mesoamerican religion you seem to have created would be a better fit.
  • The generic Mesoamerican religion should probably be extended to the Mesoamerican peoples of Central America (the Lenca, Mangue/Chorotega, and Subtiaba). I'd also recommend considering giving the Pipil and Nicarao the Nahuatl/Teotl religion. Although they didn't practice flower wars like the Nahuas of Central Mexico, neither did those of West Mexico or the gulf coast, and they are definitely culturally related.
  • Most of the Costa Grande of Mexico was not Nahua at 1337, it was dominated by small, under-documented groups. Nahuatl religion might not be accurate there.
  • The bulk of the Fula, Manding, Hausa, and Songhai peasantries were pagan in 1337. The Malinke, Songhai and some Hausa elites (depending on the city-state/kingdom, as Gobir remained pagan for longer than the others) were Muslim. The Soninke, Dioula and I believe the Kanuri were largely Muslim as a whole. I would have expected most of those areas to be majority pagan/minority Muslim, but on the map they appear to be the opposite.
  • It is weird to have distinct pagan religions in some regions and a placeholder animist in others. I don't insist on splitting them up that much, but I do hope they will at least be split up by continent. Why didn't you carry over Fetishist? You mentioned Inti but it's not present on the map, so that's a good sign there are some religions that have yet to be added to the map.
Regarding West Africa, I don’t think that’s the case for the Manding? I thought so two, but I feel like those stripes represent the pagan minorities under Muslim Mali. It does look like the reverse, I feel like the stripes for the minority religion should be bigger.
 
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Maybe it already is, I honestly cant really tell, but If not, Hinduism should use the Saffron color to represent it, it is one of, if not THE most sacred color in the entire religion. What better way to represent that? :)
 
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