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Tinto Talks #13 - 22nd of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we give out top-secret information about our upcoming unannounced game with the code name Project Caesar. This time we will touch a little bit on the aspect of religion in this game.

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Every country, pop, or character has a religion they adhere to. This impacts their relationship with the place they currently are, and their relationship with others in the world.


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This is the religious setup of Aragon in 1337.

Every religion in Project Caesar belongs to a Religion Group, such as Christianity or Paganism. Fellow religions in the same group consider each other to be merely Heretic, whereas religions in different groups condemn each other as Heathen.

Every religion has a specific view of other religions as well, that ranges from Kindred to Enemy, which impacts relations between countries of different faiths, and how populations of another faith view your country.

Each country also has their own tolerance of their true faith, of heretics, and of heathens, which impacts how happy or angry the population will be depending on which country they belong to.


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The Same Religion here, is from the law relating to valid heirs.

The religious unity of your country has a really large impact on the satisfaction of your Clergy Estate.

Important to know is that in Project Caesar, you just do not send missionaries to your locations and eventually they have changed religion. Here conversion is a slower process, which relies on government activities and infrastructure.


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A unique building for Muslim countries that has a tiny impact on conversion.

Each religion belongs to a group, which impacts which tolerance is applied and how religions interact with each other. Religions in the same group are viewed as heretics, but those of another group as heathens.

The groups we currently have are, but that may change as we continue to develop the game.
  • Christian
  • Muslim
  • Eastern
  • Dharmic
  • Zoroastrian
  • Manichean
  • Judean
  • Andean
  • Pagan

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The current Christian religions. Take into account that they are very much WIP!

In some games we have made there have not been any major differences between religions, merely being different modifiers, and while some religions in Project Caesar are still only a few modifiers, many will have mechanics. Right now, we have made unique mechanics for Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, the various Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, Nahuatl, Hinduism & the Inti religion. Each of these will get their own unique later development diary.

Now every religion will still have some modifiers that describe them, in many cases it is things that enable or disable certain mechanics. Some examples include the fact that countries with Jain as their state religion can not start wars without a casus belli, and that Calvinist countries will never reroll the dice in a battle, as everything is preordained.

Stay tuned for next week, where we talk about another completely new feature that adds flavor to the game.

Sadly, I can’t reply today, as I am at some management thingie in Stockholm, but @Pavía will help you out!
 
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This looks amazing. You already mentioned a lot is still WIP, and I am not sure if you are looking for feedback on the map at this point or if that is reserved for the Tinto maps for each specific region. In any case, I will put down some thoughts in case I miss the relevant Tinto maps (already missed the lowlands one :oops: )

I am really happy to see some of the minor religions (in 1337) included as well, such as Manichaeism or Nestorianism. The impact on the game might not as great as say Catholic or Sunni mechanics, but they add very nice flavor and overall make the world feel more alive. I am hoping you will add more :)

Will you consider adding Anabaptist as well? I feel like this would be one of the groups that had quite some influence during the game period. And (thinking particularity of Mennonites here ) one of the religious groups that is intertwined with colonial ventures, both into Russian controlled lands and the new world, which seems particularly interesting for the game.

There is also a possibility to add Paulicians, some of which lasted until ~ the 17th century in the modern day border region between Bulgaria and Greece.

Probably the Tinto maps of the middle east will give room for discussion as well. I feel like there could (should?) be Mandaeans, Yazidi, Yarsanis and Druze here. Do you have some time/personpower to look into each of these? Especially the Druze Ma'nids seem relevant for the time period.

To assign religions to Africa, others have already mentioned that the CK3 team did a very nice job. I would like to add that there are mods that take this work as a baseline and expand on it, which could in turn give a good suggestion for this project on how to group the large diversity of the continent in a way that is suited for gameplay. For example, the mod "Africa Plus":

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Will we see other emergent religions that’s in project Caesar , such as Presbyterian, Greek Catholics, Moravian, Baptist Church, Methodist church , Quakers, Puritan Protestants, Arminian and will we have more than 3 Islamic faiths. Will Polynesia and other pacific islands and New Zealand have their own religion and I’m sure there’s many others in project Caesar that I can’t think of, but take your time with religions , I want each one to have lots of flavour , and more the merrier even with religions
 
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I am very, very disappointed if the Islamic faiths remain the homogenous blobs they are in EU4 and on the attached map. There is a wealth of local movements that could be represented, and it's particularly bad for "Shia" as in reality the "Shi'ite sects" can vary radically in theology and doctrine; they are defined primarily by their allegiance to a specific line of Imams; a Nizari and an Imami have significant differences and simply would not see the other as "of the same faith"; they would see each-other as 'other' as how they would see a Sunni.
That's still not enough to consider them a different branch of islam.
 
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I’m ignorant, and hope that someone may tell me what are these white and purple ones:
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The purple one seems to be “Moist”? And I’ve no idea what is the white one.

EDIT: If these are local tradition religions (Moi and Benzhuism, then other Chinese folk religions should have some equal states too.
 
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everytime i see opb comment i sense something bad is gonna happen... ever since he hyped ck3 on youtube and i was stupid enough to buy it. later we all know how he was used by vic3 devs. now, of all the things in imperator he asks about the amazing mechanic of clicking a button to get arbitrary modifiers.

i really dont hope we dont get "you own 3 holy sites, now choose three global modifiers for 5 years"
That is not at all what I was referring to wrt I:R's holy sites and relic system. I:R features a great system around creating, embellishing and sacking holy sites combined with relics one can use in respective holy sites.
 
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is this a bug?
You can't include links.
I don't know what the exact logic here is - I never have this problem. My guess is that forum members with sufficient history in the forums are free to post links as they are known to not be spam-bots. For new forumites such as yourself stricter rules apply.

Maybe a mod can enlighten both of us here but for the time being you have to remove the link from your post.
You can instead for example just post a screenshot of the relevant text which you absolutely should have done because everyone needs to read the first paragraph:
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Will Eastern Catholicism be represented? Antiochene Syriac Maronite Church was in Union with Rome (so Christians in Lebanon were and still are to this that in full acceptance of Catholic doctrine while having Eastern practises), in the 1440s Union of Florence was enforced in some places (especially in places ruled by Władysław III of Poland, so Poland, Lithuania and Hungary). Since 16th centuries more and more Churches restored the union with Rome.

How would I implement Eastern Catholics? Maybe something similar like Sunni Schools of Jurisprudence. And while there would be no penalty to opinion and religious unity between sui juris Churches there still would be penalty to culture conversion.

Also religion conversion from Orthodoxy to Catholicism would be in vast majority to Eastern Catholicism. Converting from Orthodoxy to Western Catholicism could be possible, but much harder and frown upon by Eastern Catholics.
 
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I've asked a similar question to this before and I didn't get a reply, so I'm asking again here.

I'm as excited as the next guy about PC, but some of the dev philosophy has me concerned. In particular, I'm worried about how everything seems intended to take soooo long to happen. Here's the thing: painting maps is fun. Watching paint dry is not fun.

The "click button get instant reward" gameplay loop of EU4 is imperfect, but imo the reason EU4 is such an incredibly fun game is that players have agency. What excites me the most when I play EU4 is my ability to directly engage with all of the gameplay mechanics and make strategic decisions that have impacts. I can dev the institution to avoid future tech penalties, I can decide to take a gold province in a peace deal to boost my eco, I can decide to build a spy network for a tech discount, I can decide to improve relations to avoid someone joining a coalition against me, I can culture/religiously convert provinces to increase my eco/manpower, I can create trade companies or move my trade capital to optimize my intercontinental trade, I can keep spending money on fort maintenance to preserve my army tradition, to name just a few. I am rewarded for these decisions within a few years or even immediately. The link between a strategic decision and the payout is a critical part of the gameplay. Inserting decades of time between a player's decision and the payout erodes the player's ability to understand if they made a good decision or a bad one, as well as their ability to feel rewarded or punished for it.

An example of a concerning new system to me is the trade system. Yeah, EU4 trade has flaws. However, it is both simple enough and complicated enough for players to make strategic decisions about. Hearing the devs respond to concerns that the PC trade system appears too difficult micromanage with "don't worry, the AI can do it for you" sounds to me like a trade system being removed rather than one being added. Why design part of a game to be so complicated that it's no longer part of the game? If I can't strategically interact with trade, then I don't care how it works. If the system is so complicated I need to click the "automate" button, then all strategic depth is lost.

My question is: What is being done to preserve player agency in PC? My worry is that if everything takes decades to happen, players will end up being mostly spectators in a historical simulator, rather than active participants able to re-shape world history.
 
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