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Tinto Talks #13 - 22nd of May 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we give out top-secret information about our upcoming unannounced game with the code name Project Caesar. This time we will touch a little bit on the aspect of religion in this game.

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Every country, pop, or character has a religion they adhere to. This impacts their relationship with the place they currently are, and their relationship with others in the world.


Cb9pnYM2UZhOJuDXSumhcymKxx2JoY_R62xRWwYAFWTr7CxP-zi4GRFUxyqOJu-L8BRZPrucPIpVemt_xPAZeOFo6OrkXuTq1TE8ZJtDAVTFZh38tk_KbqcbmCZaZVRuircaN3rG_dlGRp7ytUkXkPA

This is the religious setup of Aragon in 1337.

Every religion in Project Caesar belongs to a Religion Group, such as Christianity or Paganism. Fellow religions in the same group consider each other to be merely Heretic, whereas religions in different groups condemn each other as Heathen.

Every religion has a specific view of other religions as well, that ranges from Kindred to Enemy, which impacts relations between countries of different faiths, and how populations of another faith view your country.

Each country also has their own tolerance of their true faith, of heretics, and of heathens, which impacts how happy or angry the population will be depending on which country they belong to.


P3fulF18GNuLbeWWGxQEoTswmW53zqebOn67gFrZgYiFZzPc50UCdUMGekW2CpW9CcwFK4UPKqghkR5zuap96Byb91DDDmPZ3z7zyfdNxlk2Y8iANF0Uebf8bDGbKO4TA-bpg_GgdELXl_MpQR9hX0Q

The Same Religion here, is from the law relating to valid heirs.

The religious unity of your country has a really large impact on the satisfaction of your Clergy Estate.

Important to know is that in Project Caesar, you just do not send missionaries to your locations and eventually they have changed religion. Here conversion is a slower process, which relies on government activities and infrastructure.


YY6_rIi-5JIE7LribzG4wD9uCXOZkyRMh_lFe75rrkAU1pQW8kjiGTY3esOhQgKjtHd_rT0ynXABgm0LVXdBsKVTeVKay_3E2-r2m10aHdLvBE-E8GDT8ffYlf_XVccq_5CtV-umvgnmHtXlIM1RUbA

A unique building for Muslim countries that has a tiny impact on conversion.

Each religion belongs to a group, which impacts which tolerance is applied and how religions interact with each other. Religions in the same group are viewed as heretics, but those of another group as heathens.

The groups we currently have are, but that may change as we continue to develop the game.
  • Christian
  • Muslim
  • Eastern
  • Dharmic
  • Zoroastrian
  • Manichean
  • Judean
  • Andean
  • Pagan

cpBNm-1BHHQ4tLRTSf4UHDmm0eLzrewF9YnmUhGrFFUsVDRKJjdF0UeFLrpXVyReQJNeP_9t7sq8mpjHQJYWiM6PmtJQjtuVWyvCQWnINZRC1GofCobMRaG7f4XVcyXh041J-FN1mqibkEcF6Iwzeos

The current Christian religions. Take into account that they are very much WIP!

In some games we have made there have not been any major differences between religions, merely being different modifiers, and while some religions in Project Caesar are still only a few modifiers, many will have mechanics. Right now, we have made unique mechanics for Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, the various Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, Nahuatl, Hinduism & the Inti religion. Each of these will get their own unique later development diary.

Now every religion will still have some modifiers that describe them, in many cases it is things that enable or disable certain mechanics. Some examples include the fact that countries with Jain as their state religion can not start wars without a casus belli, and that Calvinist countries will never reroll the dice in a battle, as everything is preordained.

Stay tuned for next week, where we talk about another completely new feature that adds flavor to the game.

Sadly, I can’t reply today, as I am at some management thingie in Stockholm, but @Pavía will help you out!
 
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Where are you sourcing your information about the religion of the mound builders? The only thing I was able to find was this fascinating article in the Harvard Crimson, from 1876 with no author or linked sources attributed:

THE RELIGION AND MORALS OF THE MOUND-BUILDERS.

I recommend reading the section on the Natchez in Swanton's Indian Tribes of the Lower Mississippi Valley. It's mostly a summary of Antion Le Page du Pratz's account and it has some good information.

I'm not sure about that story of Munnee and Boshor you linked. It doesn't match any other stories I've read and it's strange that there's no source listed. It wasn't easy for someone on the east coast to track down an authentic Indian legend back then. Writers would usually include information about where they went and who they talked to because that was an important part of the story.
 
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For North America, is the goal to have a different religion for each of the major language families?
Also what do the blue blob extending from Minnesota to Florida and the light green in the plains represent?
 
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I really do not like how they categorized religions, they tried to cherry pick and it looks bad. You should either go full CK3 to make every religious-sect individual, divide Hinduism and Judaism and Muslim groups. Or go more broad but give full mechanics so an Animist from Africa gets separate mechanics compared to Southeast Asian Animists with unique modifiers.

There is no point making Norse or Sami Paganism separate when others remain Animist. Same issue with Bosnian Church, they could of been part of Catholic branch but get a unique modifier to reduce relations with papacy and Catholics but get bonus relations on heretics and some heathens.

I honestly think making religion more broad but get full mechanics to reflect on their sectarian or cultural-religious views, but if we go CK3 path then every group needs to get a separate religious sect tags Animist, Shiite, Hinduism etc. would need to be further divided.
 
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Please add Quakerism
 
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I recommend reading the section on the Natchez in Swanton's Indian Tribes of the Lower Mississippi Valley. It's mostly a summary of Antion Le Page du Pratz's account and it has some good information.

I'm not sure about that story of Munnee and Boshor you linked. It doesn't match any other stories I've read and it's strange that there's no source listed. It wasn't easy for someone on the east coast to track down an authentic Indian legend back then. Writers would usually include information about where they went and who they talked to because that was an important part of the story.
Yes, I did some reading on the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex, which is the archaeological name of the religion, and none of it matched this myth. Of course that's not to say 100% that this myth is fabricated; we really don't know that much about the religion.

It was interesting how the moral values were painted in that article, which, if true, would be a good basis for mechanics in the game. Unfortunately I think it's best not to use the information since it's so suspect.
 
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Suggestions for possible religions/religious changes/potential DLC:

Maitreyaism: I'm sure you're aware of this since you researched the rise of the Ming for this game, but I think it would be cool to represent the religion. This religion could be a continuous thorn in the side of the Chinese government (like irl) or you could have very cool alt-history paths where China embraces it. For example if the government loses the mandate of heaven it could lead to this faith spreading and creating unrest.

Chinese Philosophy Schools: It would be cool if as the Chinese government you could pick one of the schools of Philosophy, Moism, Confucianism, Legalism, etc to run your country with. Not exactly religion, but wanted to mention it.

Old Believers: Due to reforms in the 17th century I believe there was a schism in the Russian church that could be a fun late game challenge to introduce

Early/no Protestants: It would be interesting if the protestant reformation would be able to be triggered early (historically there were many similar movements leading up to the reformation like lollardy) or be prevented (although that should be very very difficult) depending on what the catholic church/player does.

Schism: It seems like this won't be the case, but it would also be cool if the avignon schism could potentially remain permanent depending on player/papal actions just like the orthodox-catholic split historically. Also that the different christian churches (nestorians, orthodox, etc) could be reconciled through some mechanics as others have asked for.

Sufism: I don't want Sufism to be on the map per se, but it would be nice to have some kind of mechanics or at least events related to it.

Mahdawi Movement: While in our own timeline this religion didn't gain a lot of traction it could make a india playthrough more interesting.

Plethonism/Neoplatonism: Gemistos Plethon wanted to try to revive Neoplatonism and bring Byzantium back to the glory days of ancient Greece. It could be a really fun and difficult playthrough although should probably only happen through a niche event chain.

Secular state religion: Near the end of the game secularism gains traction and Europe so I think there should some kind of secular government type or religion that prevents religious intolerance.

Cult of Reason/Din I -ilahi: Both of these religions are quite niches, but I think giving revolutionary republics/the mughals (or maybe open it to any state in India?) could add more flavor and better gameplay.

Yazdanism/Arewordik/Harran Sabians/Shamsiyah: In the areas of modern day Kurdistan there were many movements that seemed pagan/neoplatonist/zoroastrian in nature that huddled in the mountains. They might not warrant being included as seperate religions, but they should at least be included as zoroastrian pops.

Ibn Taymiyya: This scholar was worried about the integrity of Islam due to the pagan mongols 'insincere' conversion (in his eyes). His doctrine was proto-salafi and could spice up playing in the islamic world especially with the violence wrought by the mongol timurids and the endless sunni blob. This ones a stretch, but worth mentioning.

Moamoria/Mayamara Satra: In 1700s Assam there was a religiously motivated anti feudal rebellion. While it failed in our timeline it'd could make late game colonization of india more dynamic and potentially less onesided.

Sramana: I'm not sure if any Sramana traditions were still relevant in the 1300s, but if they were it'd be interesting to be able to convert to them to cause some indian religious conflict since hinduism isn't being split.
 
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WILL IT BE POSSIBLE TO PREVENT PROTESTANTISM? It should be hard but it should be possible. In EU4 it's quite impossible and ages are related to it so it has to happen always.
And if this happen, will be possible to heal schism before it goes too far\fight them to death like cathars or hussite?
 
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This map is a 1495 estimate from the Hungarian Academy of Sciences - Dark green Romanians.
I feel like we are nitpicking ahead of time, but here is the Orthodox ethnicties in the hungarian map overlaid over the paradox map:
Yes, even according to the Hungarians Transylvania wasn't as Catholic as Paradox's map makes it out to be.
1495 is a bit far from the start date, that map is not the best base.
This one below illustrates the situation from end of the 13th century, utilising studies of historical toponyms as its basis:
1716478971137.png

One notable change between the base year of the map and the start date of the game is the settlement of Vlachs in Máramaros County, starting from 1326. Maybe Máramaros could be Orthodox and Vlach majority to represent that.

One another note however, Orthodoxy is quite a bit overrepresented in Northwestern Hungary. Notable Ruthenian migration to the region didn't start until the 15th century, AFAIK. Most of the region was sparsely populated by Western Slavs and Hungarians, most of whom were Catholic.

Here's a link to a brief paper that touches on the subject:

Beszterce/Bistritz District should also be Catholic with a high share of Germans among them.

Furthermore, as the map above shows, Hungary could also be given a very small number of Muslim (Izmaelita) pops sprinkled all over the country.
 
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I really don't like the idea of a single animist faith, it's an as ahistorical oversimplification that I don't think should exist. I think CK3 has the perfect representation of pagans, although it may be a bit too complex for Project Caesar. I hope that animism is changed to be multiple different religions, instead of a unified umbrella term.

Also it's odd that the Armenian Apostolic Church isn't in the game, I would have assumed that they would have been finally separated from Coptic.
There's no reason to separate the Armenian Apostolic Church from the Ethiopians and Egyptian Copts. They are the in the same communion, espouse the same beliefs, and have always been united. That would make just as much sense as making an "Ambrosian Church" because of the Ambrosian Rite of Catholicism in northern Italy. Relatively minor liturgical differences are by far the worst reason to split up the Oriental Orthodox Church I can think of.
 
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I assume the lighter blue in North America that overlays the Mississippi watershed is going to represent some sort of amalgamation of the mound-builder civilizations of this region. If so, will there be Cahokia in its prime as a potential major nation following along the Mississippi River and its tributaries?
 
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I hope we don't go too extreme with mechanics like what's been seen in EUIV.

I'm all down for mechanics, having interactions with the papacy, makes a lot of sense for Catholicism for instance. What I'm not a fan of, are the religious mechanics that boil down to fill a bar, get x modifier, or something like that. It created a game where players were often encouraged to abandon their historical religion to convert to a faith that was statistically better.

I want religion to be a matter of ensuring a balance of power between the pops, and the dominant religious organization, either through humanist or religious policies. And not a game of finding out which faith is mathematically the best, and converting to it every game.
 
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Great work you guys are doing but I want to make a minor correction:

Representing the most northern area of the Gulf of Bothnia (and especially in the vicinity of the Tornio and Kemi rivers) as Christian in 1337 is likely to be anachronistic as only in 1328 where the first known dealings between the Birkarls and Swedes known (this concerning disputes with the Hälsings who it was decided did not have the right to settle north of the Ume), and re-ratified in 1358 after King Magnus Eriksson had reached his majority. The first known church constructed in the area was during the 1340s in Tornio and 14th century burials from for example Kyrkudden and Kemi show that the area was likely still firmly pagan. One can also note that as late as the 1500s there were powerful Birkarls who were being repeatedly accused of heathenry and refusing to go to church, some pagan burials also continued all the way into the early 1600s. (See Peter Antti)
The religion of these areas would've probably been some kind of Finnish paganism, as of course the population of these areas were predecessors of some sort to the modern Tornedalians and Kvens as is described in various primary and secondary works on the region. Of course the Torne valley region in particular would have (and continue to have) strong Sámi influences and Sámi populations, along with the eponymous Tornedalians(/Kvens).

See among others Erik Kuoksu, Ingela Bergman, Peter Antti for more information on the topic, I especially also recommend 'Sannings och försoningskommissionen for tornedalingar, kväner och lantalaisets slutbetänkande' which while mainly focusing on the later colonial history of the area does indeed go into reasonable detail on earlier parts of the regions history.
Further while I cannot say anything specifically about it as I am somewhat unacquainted with the subject by this time there must be quite some Finnish pagans left in Finland?

I'm very interested to see this project develop and good luck!
 
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They weren't. Especially in Espírito Santo, which was left as dense forests up to the arrival of immigrants by the end of the 19th century. The coast is hilly, with some of the highest peaks in Brazil and insanely forested. I believe the map is pretty spot on
As a Brazilian living in the wasteland areas, I agree with you (in pain, but with sincerity). The Atlantic Forest is a very difficult terrain to surpass and the highlands right alongside the coast made Brazil a country very difficult to develop it's interior.

But I think we can make some considerations here and there that could increase the number of locations here. For example, there were some Spanish presence in the middle of Paraná and Caminho do Peabiru testifies the existence of commerce between Brazilian indigenous peoples and the Andes.
 
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Fins have their own Sami shamanist religion, and half of the world is classified as generic animist.
What is the reason making sami shamanist unique meanwhile, African and Americans having same religion?
The reason? The proximity of the Sami to the headquarters of the developers)
In fact, they will have the opportunity to separate these religions.
 
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Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we give out top-secret information about our upcoming unannounced game with the code name Project Caesar. This time we will touch a little bit on the aspect of religion in this game.

Vx1JCi0SoIWC_RmTIABR5snAPEW7QH88Ou7sQF4_68eXfurIipvfOB1Qrem_EmgkojIrk4PtQRImFu8qP6SKvEfv7HWXWPiezhibwcnYZOP58S42b3cfEGqm6O7DRp_D8CMBgY3Mka_qR5rChmo7R9w


Every country, pop, or character has a religion they adhere to. This impacts their relationship with the place they currently are, and their relationship with others in the world.


Cb9pnYM2UZhOJuDXSumhcymKxx2JoY_R62xRWwYAFWTr7CxP-zi4GRFUxyqOJu-L8BRZPrucPIpVemt_xPAZeOFo6OrkXuTq1TE8ZJtDAVTFZh38tk_KbqcbmCZaZVRuircaN3rG_dlGRp7ytUkXkPA

This is the religious setup of Aragon in 1337.

Every religion in Project Caesar belongs to a Religion Group, such as Christianity or Paganism. Fellow religions in the same group consider each other to be merely Heretic, whereas religions in different groups condemn each other as Heathen.

Every religion has a specific view of other religions as well, that ranges from Kindred to Enemy, which impacts relations between countries of different faiths, and how populations of another faith view your country.

Each country also has their own tolerance of their true faith, of heretics, and of heathens, which impacts how happy or angry the population will be depending on which country they belong to.


P3fulF18GNuLbeWWGxQEoTswmW53zqebOn67gFrZgYiFZzPc50UCdUMGekW2CpW9CcwFK4UPKqghkR5zuap96Byb91DDDmPZ3z7zyfdNxlk2Y8iANF0Uebf8bDGbKO4TA-bpg_GgdELXl_MpQR9hX0Q

The Same Religion here, is from the law relating to valid heirs.

The religious unity of your country has a really large impact on the satisfaction of your Clergy Estate.

Important to know is that in Project Caesar, you just do not send missionaries to your locations and eventually they have changed religion. Here conversion is a slower process, which relies on government activities and infrastructure.


YY6_rIi-5JIE7LribzG4wD9uCXOZkyRMh_lFe75rrkAU1pQW8kjiGTY3esOhQgKjtHd_rT0ynXABgm0LVXdBsKVTeVKay_3E2-r2m10aHdLvBE-E8GDT8ffYlf_XVccq_5CtV-umvgnmHtXlIM1RUbA

A unique building for Muslim countries that has a tiny impact on conversion.

Each religion belongs to a group, which impacts which tolerance is applied and how religions interact with each other. Religions in the same group are viewed as heretics, but those of another group as heathens.

The groups we currently have are, but that may change as we continue to develop the game.
  • Christian
  • Muslim
  • Eastern
  • Dharmic
  • Zoroastrian
  • Manichean
  • Judean
  • Andean
  • Pagan

cpBNm-1BHHQ4tLRTSf4UHDmm0eLzrewF9YnmUhGrFFUsVDRKJjdF0UeFLrpXVyReQJNeP_9t7sq8mpjHQJYWiM6PmtJQjtuVWyvCQWnINZRC1GofCobMRaG7f4XVcyXh041J-FN1mqibkEcF6Iwzeos

The current Christian religions. Take into account that they are very much WIP!

In some games we have made there have not been any major differences between religions, merely being different modifiers, and while some religions in Project Caesar are still only a few modifiers, many will have mechanics. Right now, we have made unique mechanics for Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Miaphysitism, the various Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto, Nahuatl, Hinduism & the Inti religion. Each of these will get their own unique later development diary.

Now every religion will still have some modifiers that describe them, in many cases it is things that enable or disable certain mechanics. Some examples include the fact that countries with Jain as their state religion can not start wars without a casus belli, and that Calvinist countries will never reroll the dice in a battle, as everything is preordained.

Stay tuned for next week, where we talk about another completely new feature that adds flavor to the game.

Sadly, I can’t reply today, as I am at some management thingie in Stockholm, but @Pavía will help you out!
This is sweet. One note, though— I worry about the broad designation of “pagan”, which I interpret as probably roping together religions from North America, Africa, Oceania, northeastern Europe, and the Steppes which have no similarities other than not being Abrahamic (or one of the other major groups listed). Could you split it further into regional groupings, like North American, Polynesian, etc.?
 
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