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Tinto Talks #15 - June 5th 2024

Welcome to the 15th Tinto Talks, where we ask for feedback on our extremely crazily top secret game which has the codename Project Caesar.

One thing that many have asked for has been a more in-depth dynastical gameplay, so here it is.

Characters
Before we delve into the dynamics of dynastic gameplay, we must first talk about their building blocks, the characters.

european (1).jpg


Here is a European King with an early 18th century background.

While not copying the Crusader Kings mechanics, a Character in Project Caesar is a bit more alive than in let's say EU4. A character is born, lives, and eventually dies.

Every character has Administrative, Diplomatic and Military Attributes ranging from 0-100. Of course, these attributes will not add any sort of mana, but they will impact how well the character will perform certain roles. One example is that the diplomatic ability of an admiral impacts the morale of the navy he leads.

Newborn characters start with 0, but that grows until they are adults depending on what childhood trait they have. You can also assign your rulers’ children and grandchildren a specific education during their childhood

gifted.png

This is a trait that when on the heir of the player it increases the chance of hunting accidents by 200%.

Characters ruling a country will gain up to 3 traits, depending on how long they have ruled.
They are gained while ruling a country. Characters that are generals or admirals will also get traits after combat. There are also unique traits for characters that are REDACTED or OTHER_SECRET_THING.

Characters also have a culture they come from, a religion they follow, they keep track of where they were born, and where they currently are living. They belong to an estate, which for most characters tends to be the nobles estate.

Many characters will have a father and/or a mother as well. For some historical characters at the start of the game that will not necessarily be true.

The number of spouse(s) a character can have depends on religions and laws, but the number of children they get depends more on the fertility of the parents.

So what can you do with characters? Well, this is not Crusader Kings, so the characters themselves are not as important, and there are no character specific events like in Imperator either. In this game, characters are tools to be used for the greater good. If that means marrying off your daughter to secure an alliance with France, then that's what you have to do. You can arrange marriages in your country, send less useful characters into convents, ennoble great people, and much more.
ashanti (1).jpg


This is an African ruler, in his throne room, which while beautiful, is just a background image…


Speaking of marriages, royal marriages in Project Caesar are not just sending a diplomat, here it is far more limited, as you have to actually marry real characters, and often this is a vital action. If you can’t arrange a royal marriage with a country of enough prestige, that has a young consort, you may be forced to marry a local noble from your country, or worse, even a lowborn.

A Royal Marriage between two rulers will immediately form a union between those two countries. Every country has its own inheritance laws, which if they differ, may cause a Union to break, as the rulers would be different. This is probably not the audience where I need to explain the difference between Salic Law and Semi-Salic Law right?


bjälbo.png

And who was the founder of this dynasty?

Dynasties are important, as they impact diplomacy in direct and indirect ways. As some inheritance laws prefer their own dynasty, and having the same dynasty can improve opinions between countries.


As in almost all previous GSG, the game will keep track of who has ruled that country before, just so you can go back and admire them. We have tried to get in as much history as possible here, even if my heathen content designers refuse to have Odin as the original King of Sweden!

ruler_history.png

Of course regnal numbering and actual names depend on many different things..


Stay tuned, next week we’ll be back and we will then talk about how the cabinet will work.
 

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it also impacts the morale on armies when a character is a general.


diplomacy here is a "charisma"-style attribute
This looks fantastic. Diplomatic skill means not only political negotiations, but also that a general can motivate soldiers to fight longer time.

Does it mean that armies/navies with generals/admirals with high administrative skills will suffer lower attrition? (let's say, they can organise logistics and resources management better within their army)
 
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I was thinking about that as well. Maybe it could be that in contemporary sources they were referred to as House of Aragon instead of House of Barcelona? Historiografically they are always known as the House of Barcelona and it makes more sense since it's the dynasty of the Count of Barcelona, but I'm not knowledgeable in how the contemporary sources say it.
Other people have already said it, but I will put data on the table to argue why the Aragon dynasty is incorrect and should be Barcelona dynasty.In 1150 AD Ramon Berenguer IV of the house of Barcelona marries Petronilla of Aragon, successor and heiress of Ramiro II of Aragon, who had no male offspring.From this marriage was born the future king of Aragon, Alfonso the chaste, who, since his parents' marriage was not matrilineal, the dynasty would be that of his father, of Barcelona.The Barcelona dynasty ends with Martin the Human in 1410, who dies without issue and the crown will pass to the Trastámara dynasty, as can be seen at the beginning of Europa Universali IV.

In this link you can see the entire dynasty of the house of Barcelona
There isn't an outright answer about it, to be entirely honest. 'Dynasty' was not really a concept back in the 14th century, but a modern, historiographic one; this means that the Kings of Aragon didn't consider themselves officially of a certain dynasty or the other, but as of the lineage of both the Kings of Aragon (because of their main title), and of the Counts of Barcelona (because of the patrilineal heritage), at the same time. The only direct mention in the period is in the Chronicle of Ramon Muntaner, that estates at its start that "aquest libre senyelladament se fa a honor de Déu e dela sua beneyta Mare e del casal d'Arago" ("this book was done in honor of God and of his Mother and of the house of Aragon"); while King Peter IV 'the Ceremonious' entitled himself in his Ordinacions: "regne Darago lo qual regne es títol e nom nostre principal" ("king of Aragon which is our title and our principal name"). The page on the Catalan Viquipèdia gives good information about the matter.

So this is something that we've discussed internally quite in-depth (I, being Castilian, with our Catalan and Aragonese content designers, lol), as we have three possibilities for this dynasty name: 'Aragó/Aragón', 'Barcelona', or 'Aragón and Barcelona'. For the moment we used 'Aragó' for the sake of simplicity, but we'll be reading your feedback regarding this, and this may not be the final version.
 
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There isn't an outright answer about it, to be entirely honest. 'Dynasty' was not really a concept back in the 14th century, but a modern, historiographic one; this means that the Kings of Aragon didn't consider themselves officially of a certain dynasty or the other, but as of the lineage of both the Kings of Aragon (because of their main title), and of the Counts of Barcelona (because of the patrilineal heritage), at the same time. The only direct mention in the period is in the Chronicle of Ramon Muntaner, that estates at its start that "aquest libre senyelladament se fa a honor de Déu e dela sua beneyta Mare e del casal d'Arago" ("this book was done in honor of God and of his Mother and of the house of Aragon"); while King Peter IV 'the Ceremonious' entitled himself in his Ordinacions: "regne Darago lo qual regne es títol e nom nostre principal" ("king of Aragon which is our title and our principal name"). The page on the Catalan Viquipèdia gives good information about the matter.

So this is something that we've discussed internally quite in-depth (I, being Castilian, with our Catalan and Aragonese content designers, lol), as we have three possibilities for this dynasty name: 'Aragó/Aragón', 'Barcelona', or 'Aragón and Barcelona'. For the moment we used 'Aragó' for the sake of simplicity, but we'll be reading your feedback regarding this, and this may not be the final version.
So, I ask, how is it that the Trastámera dynasty appears in Europa Universalis IV and not Aragon?If what is taken into account is the main title, the same should happen with the different kingdoms of Europe.
 
Dithmarschens northern Border is still very wrong. it includes the peninsula Eiderstedt, which has never been part of Dithmarschen. the border has always been on the river Eider. please fix

source: i am from dithmarschen, also google it you will not find a single map of dithmarschen ever including eiderstedt, because it never did.
 
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In addition to my previous question, "You can also assign your rulers’ children and grandchildren a specific education during their childhood" how does this work in a PU?
 
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So, I ask, how is it that the Trastámera dynasty appears in Europa Universalis IV and not Aragon?If what is taken into account is the main title, the same should happen with the different kingdoms of Europe.

Because it was a dynasty started by a bastard son of the King of Aragon..

And the kid is 3 years old at the start of the game-
 
There isn't an outright answer about it, to be entirely honest. 'Dynasty' was not really a concept back in the 14th century, but a modern, historiographic one; this means that the Kings of Aragon didn't consider themselves officially of a certain dynasty or the other, but as of the lineage of both the Kings of Aragon (because of their main title), and of the Counts of Barcelona (because of the patrilineal heritage), at the same time. The only direct mention in the period is in the Chronicle of Ramon Muntaner, that estates at its start that "aquest libre senyelladament se fa a honor de Déu e dela sua beneyta Mare e del casal d'Arago" ("this book was done in honor of God and of his Mother and of the house of Aragon"); while King Peter IV 'the Ceremonious' entitled himself in his Ordinacions: "regne Darago lo qual regne es títol e nom nostre principal" ("king of Aragon which is our title and our principal name"). The page on the Catalan Viquipèdia gives good information about the matter.

So this is something that we've discussed internally quite in-depth (I, being Castilian, with our Catalan and Aragonese content designers, lol), as we have three possibilities for this dynasty name: 'Aragó/Aragón', 'Barcelona', or 'Aragón and Barcelona'. For the moment we used 'Aragó' for the sake of simplicity, but we'll be reading your feedback regarding this, and this may not be the final version.
Interesting and fair enough. I was of the opinion (without major knowledge than that taught when in school) that had to be "de Barcelona" although reading that you guys have make in-depth research and internal discussion, and about the insight you write, probably "d'Aragó" is the right compromise between them since I read that along history there was lineage of "Aragón-Pamplona", "Aragón-Barcelona" and "Aragón-Trastámara", being Aragón the common denominator, obviously because was the old original lineage of the kingdom, moreover with those Chronicle of Ramon Muntaner and King Peter IV of Aragón records.
 
So there's 3d characters here as well...
*Gets previous games flashbacks of lackluster character designs which needed tons of mods and DLCs to fix*
ruler_history.png

>It's already happening

Lol, we are certainly in for another immersion breaking ride
 
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I wanted to ask about a multiplayer feature. In Hearts of Iron 4 when someone desyncs the game automatically resyncs the lobby without anyone having to rejoin or rehost. Will this or a similar feature be in Project Caesar? One of the most frustrating parts about trying to play certain paradox games with friends is that you just end up with constant desyncs and it becomes very annoying/unplayable at times.
EU4 not doing this is a result of the older version of the engine - all games HOI4 and onwards are fine in this regard.
 
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There is a thread with general opinion that people here doesn't like 3d characters. And I am deeply sad that it wasn't taken into account.
I am not a fan of how 3d characters are looking here.
1 thread is not an accurate representation of the opinion of people here. You can't claim something wasn't considered when the data behind it is inaccurate.
 
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1 thread is not an accurate representation of the opinion of people here. You can't claim something wasn't considered when the data behind it is inaccurate.
Especially considering the reactions to this thread. Seems like the majority either likes both or likes the mechanics and doesn't mind the 3d characters.
 
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Because it was a dynasty started by a bastard son of the King of Aragon..

And the kid is 3 years old at the start of the game-
Sorry Johan, I am confused with this data you are giving me. Who was a bastard child? And who was three years old at the start of the game?
If you are talking about EUIV the ruler is Alfonso the Magnanimous (of the Trastámera dynasty) aged 48 years old, and in no case is he a bastard son of Ferdinand I.

What I mean by all this is that if we talk about dynasties, as they are focused on EUIV or the Caesar project, it is what it is, if not as I said before, all European rulers should take the main title dynasty. To give just one example, in the case of Austria, it would be Austria and not Habsburg.
Forgive my insistence and thank you for answering both you and Pavía to my doubts, but I just don't see your approaches clearly.
 
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There isn't an outright answer about it, to be entirely honest. 'Dynasty' was not really a concept back in the 14th century, but a modern, historiographic one; this means that the Kings of Aragon didn't consider themselves officially of a certain dynasty or the other, but as of the lineage of both the Kings of Aragon (because of their main title), and of the Counts of Barcelona (because of the patrilineal heritage), at the same time. The only direct mention in the period is in the Chronicle of Ramon Muntaner, that estates at its start that "aquest libre senyelladament se fa a honor de Déu e dela sua beneyta Mare e del casal d'Arago" ("this book was done in honor of God and of his Mother and of the house of Aragon"); while King Peter IV 'the Ceremonious' entitled himself in his Ordinacions: "regne Darago lo qual regne es títol e nom nostre principal" ("king of Aragon which is our title and our principal name"). The page on the Catalan Viquipèdia gives good information about the matter.

So this is something that we've discussed internally quite in-depth (I, being Castilian, with our Catalan and Aragonese content designers, lol), as we have three possibilities for this dynasty name: 'Aragó/Aragón', 'Barcelona', or 'Aragón and Barcelona'. For the moment we used 'Aragó' for the sake of simplicity, but we'll be reading your feedback regarding this, and this may not be the final version.
Another reason why I stand by my statements is that King Peter the Ceremonious always signed as Pere Terç (Peter III), and if he had followed the reasoning you give me he would have been called Peter IV (following the Aragonese dynasty). I am attaching different historical documents that confirm it.
  • Les Ordinacionsde Pere III - de títol complet Ordinacinonsfetes per lo Senyor en Pere terç rey dArago sobre lo regiment de tots losofficials de la sua cort- són elconjunt de regles i disposicions estatuïdes vers el 1344 pel rei Pere el Cerimoniós (que signava Pere terç) sobre funcionament de la Casa reial d'Aragó. Annexaa les Ordinacions de la Casa reial, hi ha les ordinacions sobre el ceromonialde coronació dels reis d'Aragó.

-Caplletra N d'un manuscriten català: Ordinacions fetes per lo senyor en pere terz rey d'aragó sobre loregiment de tots los officials de la sua cort. Nos [...].

1717685665313.png

- Manuscrit en català: Ordinacinons fetes per lo Senyor en Pere terç rey dArago sobre lo regiment de tots los officials de la sua cor.


1717685766651.png


-Manuscrit en aragonès de lapart dedicada al cerimonial de la coronació: Ordinacion feyta por el muyt altoe muyt excellent Princep e Senyor el Senyor Don Pedro tercero Rey dAragon de lamanera como los Reyes dAragon se faran consagrar e ellos mismos se coronaran.
1717685802536.png
 
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We don't know how technology works of course, but will characters be able to spread technology? This happened in history, e.g. Peter the Great was inspired after studying in the Netherlands and modernized their nation. Something similar happened in Prussia, and there are more examples to be founf
 
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