Tinto Talks #17 - 19th of June 2024

[Monty is staring at me]

They were considered nobles.
Free or unfree is a completely different characteristic. Peasants could be free, and they'd still be clearly below unfree nobles in rank.

Ministerialies are a really weird case specific to the Holy Roman Empire, and they remained serfs. You can argue they were "treated" like nobles on account that they served as knights, but they aren't really what is meant by nobles legalistically. They certainly were distinct to "regular" nobility. They certainly are not what is meant by "nobles" in Project Caesar, which is almost certainly landed aristocracy (considering that Kalmar only has 13 nobles in total).

I think you are really missing the forest for the trees here. Even the example that you gave is not a way in which peasants or serfs advanced to become full nobles, with the entire political rights afforded to them, coats of arms, landed titles, etc.

 

[FleetingRain]

Where are all the free men? Who lives in cities from the Lower Class?

 

[endersaim]

That is true if it's land that is just being settled. But that has nothing to do with the fact that vegetation gives a bonus to population capacity.

Yeah, I agree that population capacity should be based on theoretical food production maximum plus current imports.

 

[Vladechni]

Hm?
View attachment 1150504

yeah no I do not trust that result when these things are there

 

[Modo Gallico]

Is it possible to significantly increase the population of a country in relation to its population in reality ( by managing well food production, population distribution, infrastructure, standard of living etc. ) or does the game prevent the population from reaching a certain level ( with famine, epidemics, overcrowding, mortality, etc. ) ? And if the game allows us to have a larger population than reality, how difficult is it to achieve this and make our country a demographic giant ?

 

[Mef]

yeah no I do not trust that result when these things are there

Hands have always been notoriously hard to draw for humans, and I don't see any obvious signs of AI, like additional fingers, in these examples.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Is it possible to create a state that fully integrates multiple cultures, for example historical France, UK regarding Scotland, or a unified Germany/Scandinavia, or is creating a monoculture the only way to get the, for example, same-culture Noble bonuses?

 

[Vladechni]

Hands have always been notoriously hard to draw for humans, and I don't see any obvious signs of AI, like additional fingers, in these examples.

My blud in Christ
1st image: the ringfinger is way too thick and shows like it's a blend of 2 fingers, you can even see it be shaded to be that way
2nd image: the thumb is fused to the palm and there's only 3 fingers
3rd image: there's 5 non-thumb fingers with no sign of a thumb

you'd think that sorta stuff would be corrected before the rendering?

 

[Mef]

Ministerialies are a really weird case specific to the Holy Roman Empire, and they remained serfs. You can argue they were "treated" like nobles on account that they served as knights, but they aren't really what is meant by nobles legalistically. They certainly were distinct to "regular" nobility. They certainly are not what is meant by "nobles" in Project Caesar, which is almost certainly landed aristocracy (considering that Kalmar only has 13 nobles in total).

I think you are really missing the forest for the trees here. Even the example that you gave is not a way in which peasants or serfs advanced to become full nobles, with the entire political rights afforded to them, coats of arms, landed titles, etc.

In feudal societies, there was little importance attached to being free or unfree - status was way more important. And ministerials absolutely had the status of nobles. They didn't just serve as knights, they were often administrators who were in charge of castles or tracts of land, especially in the Late Middle Ages.
The fact that they weren't free didn't make them any less noble, on the contrary: their status as nobility was often underscored by the fact that they served some of the most powerful people. Serving was considered honorable in Feudal societies, which is quite different from today, as we consider 'freedom' (which wasn't a concept in the singular back then) to be crucially important.

While they were initially chosen for their competency, these positions became hereditary, together with the status of nobility.
Those families typically made up what is called the lower nobility or gentry, and they always wanted to have fiefs of their own, so while not all of them were landed, many did acquire some land. Some of these families also became patricians in cities, which is what I'm assuming will be what the noble estate in some forms of republics will be called.
In the game's time period, lifting people into nobility by letters patent became a practice, and several princes in the HRE, as well as the Emperor had the right to issue these letters. The first of such letters in the HRE that survived to this day was issued in 1360.
It's strange that you mentioned coat of arms, because a grant of arms does not make you a noble, those are two separate things.

It is clear from the fact that you can just build buildings that will create more nobles, that this pop in the game isn't just supposed to represent the absolute elite, but also lower nobility. Otherwise, there would indeed have to be almost no way to grow their ranks.

 

[Orty91]

While this happened historically, I'm a bit ambivalent about portraying "culture x is better at Y than Z"

An “experience” mechanic could be interesting and could solve the issue. Giving a production efficiency bonus at the culture (that could change during time) that is most producing a certain good or something similar.

 

[blue89962]

I saw that you mentioned earlier that in most cases pops will convert to the primary culture of your country, but will it be possible to specifically make it so pops in a location convert to a specific culture that is different from my primary culture?

 

[Hawking Around]

Not sure if this has been asked already but I assume it would be quite easy to mod in nobles and burghers being able to grow organically without breaking anything minor performance issues be dammed!

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Sweden should have some German (Low German?) pops to represent the urban dwelling merchants, artisans, and artists the came from the Hansa. Check these random sources out:

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

Stockholm during the Middle Ages - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Some claim that many of the port towns established around the 14th century were built and originally inhabited by the German merchants, others that Stockholm had up to 50% of its original population around the same century being ethnic Germans.

I'm pretty sure Holsatian are Germans from Holstein

 

[King Doom and Ice Cream]

There is also content that does migration, where events, disasters or other scripted content will set up specific migration from one place to another.

Makes me curious what the vision is for historical railroading. No railroading might lead to butterfly effects resulting in unrecognisable alt-history world maps by the end of the game, but forcing Napoleon on the throne even if it doesn't make sense in the game also wouldn't be fun.

Eu4 had a pretty good balance (although later DLCs went a bit too railroady for my taste). Really curious what Project Ceasars view is on this.

 

[Mef]

My blud in Christ
1st image: the ringfinger is way too thick and shows like it's a blend of 2 fingers, you can even see it be shaded to be that way
2nd image: the thumb is fused to the palm and there's only 3 fingers
3rd image: there's 5 non-thumb fingers with no sign of a thumb

you'd think that sorta stuff would be correct before the rendering?

This is from 1475:

Was it AI generated because many of the fingers look way too long and deformed, and some hands appear to only have 4 fingers?
I'm not saying that it's 100% not AI-generated, but hands not looking 100% correct isn't enough to say that a picture was AI-generated.

 

[Ispil]

@Johan How moddable are pop needs? Can I adjust the amount of a good demanded by a pop based on a variable?

 

[Dongerino]

I see that there is an Upper Class and a Lower Class. Can one mod in more? Like a Middle Class?

 

[MTGian]

Some thoughts...

1) <Graphic of Sweden Pops showing 168 (0.03%) Pops in Sweden are Nobles>

I understand that this is work in progress and the numbers are subject to change, but there were a fair amount of nobles. Way more than 0.03%. I'll see if I can look up some numbers later. This matters because of a bigger issue below...

2) Population Capacity

I love it as a concept. Malthusian mechanics FTW!

The devil is in the details with this one. Population capacity should be a local measure. The main effect that population capacity should have is that if a place is below its population capacity, then food production should receive a bonus (only the best farmland is in production) and if a place is above its population capacity, then food production should receive a penalty (increasingly questionable farmland is in production). The average food production per worker drops as the population increases and goes below the amount that peasants need for sustainability when the population capacity is exceeded.

Imported food should allow a place to exceed its population capacity without penalty. As such, I would separate migration and population growth from population capacity. Migration and population growth should be based on pop satisfaction. You should be able to have a place with a high pop satisfaction and population over population capacity where migration is still high. I hope that makes sense.

3) Fixed Number of Upper Class Pops Based on Buildings

This is one of those ideas that made sense in the design room, but does not make sense to players. I'd recommend going back to the drawing board with this one.

Nobles and burghers should definitely procreate and change in size over time. Yes, there were enough nobles and burghers where this made a difference. Both were sizeable populations.

My recommendation when it comes to upper class pops would be to implement something similar to what I described above for overall population capacity. Except for the upper classes, instead of getting more/less food when below/above population capacity, you should get more/less of whatever defines each upper class pop.

Burghers are the most obvious. Presumably, business and income defines burghers. If you are over your burgher population capacity, then there are too many burghers relative to the economic opportunities. If we think of it exactly like the food example, then when burghers are below population capacity, there is enough business opportunity to go around, while when burghers are above population capacity, they are fighting over increasingly questionable business opportunities. When the burgher population capacity is exceeded, the amount of economic opportunity falls below what burghers think they should have and burgher satisfaction declines below baseline. Or something like that.

Nobles should compete over "prestige" or something akin to that. If you are over your noble population capacity, then there are too many nobles relative to the prestige opportunities. This should degrade noble satisfaction.

Clergy should compete over "doing clergy stuff" (yes, great name). If you are over your clergy population capacity, then there are too many clergy relative to the number of clergy stuff-opportunities. This should degrade clergy satisfaction.

You get the idea. Pops shouldn't automatically demote when the population capacity is exceeded. Just have them become unhappy. That unhappiness is the lever for them to build more buildings and for you to do something to increase the population capacity (for that group or for all groups, depending on the tools the player has).

Let's stop there. I have a few more thoughts for later.

 

[QuinnMallory]

The term "pop" seems to be used inconsistently, to describe both "a group of people with identical relevant characteristics" and "individual people/families within such a group".

 

[Mef]

Some thoughts...

1) <Graphic of Sweden Pops showing 168 (0.03%) Pops in Sweden are Nobles>

I understand that this is work in progress and the numbers are subject to change, but there were a fair amount of nobles. Way more than 0.03%. I'll see if I can look up some numbers later. This matters because of a bigger issue below...

I'm guessing they probably don't have a proper starting setup for buildings yet, which would greatly impact the numbers of nobles and burghers at the start.

The main effect that population capacity should have is that if a place is below its population capacity, then food production should receive a bonus (only the best farmland is in production) and if a place is above its population capacity, then food production should receive a penalty (increasingly questionable farmland is in production). The average food production per worker drops as the population increases and goes below the amount that peasants need for sustainability when the population capacity is exceeded.

Fully agreed. Vegetation should affect how many peasants can work on food production and if you go over that soft cap, food production should become less efficient. This direct 'vegetation = population capacity' relationship is way too abstract.

Imported food should allow a place to exceed its population capacity without penalty. As such, I would separate migration and population growth from population capacity. Migration and population growth should be based on pop satisfaction. You should be able to have a place with a high pop satisfaction and population over population capacity where migration is still high. I hope that makes sense.

I do think that having available land should still have some impact for migration, but it should be way more important for peasants that are migrating than for upper class pops. If no or only few peasant are migrating, available land should matter very little and pop satisfaction or tax base per capita in the target location should be the crucial factor.

3) Fixed Number of Upper Class Pops Based on Buildings

I also agree with treating upper class capacity provided by buildings/city status as less of a strict cap. I think it should be more like a floor that is created by employment opportunities in those buildings, but the actual number of upper class pops would be able to grow larger and cause unrest or migrate somewhere else.


Oh and by the way, I realize it's ironic that I'm arguing against the concept of population capacity when I made a mod that introduces this concept to Victoria 3. But in my mod, it's based on real historical population numbers that states reached in the time period which provide a baseline for pop growth and migration attraction that can be surpassed by the player or other events. I guess if population capacity is present in Project Caesar at release, I could make a mod that works like that, too. I'd just have to figure out how to give each location a fixed population capacity.