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Tinto Talks #18 - 26th of June 2024

Welcome everyone to another Tinto Talks. This is the time of the week where we will be focusing on gathering your helpful feedback on how to shape this secret game with the code name of Project Ceasar together.

Today we will get back into politics, and discuss how Laws function in this game. Sadly, when this is going live, I’m technically on vacation, so might not be able to reply. The good news for you though, is that @SaintDaveUK and @Pavía are more than happy to reply.

We have had various forms of laws in previous grand strategy games, everything from deciding how the Upper House in Victoria 2 is composed to simpler things like decisions “The Education Act” in EU3 that gave you a permanent bonus. In Project Caesar what we define as a Law is something that has 2 or more policies to choose from, and where you can change the policy for a cost.

Many Laws have lots of unique policies that are available for certain tags, religions, cultures or other unique restrictions.

Currently most countries start with about 12-15 laws that they have policies on from the start, and there are about 40 more laws that appear over the ages.

law_categories.png

Four different administrative laws here, all for the ideal way to run our country.

Enacting a policy for a new law is merely a cost in gold, but changing a policy is far more costly. At a base cost of 100 stability, it's rather costly, and while a high crown power reduces it, having low crown power, which would be very common in the early part of the game, would increase that cost further.

So how do you pass a law then without plunging your country into chaos? Call in the Parliament and convince them to approve law changes! How that works in detail we will talk about when we talk about parliaments.

Also to take into account is that while you immediately will lose the benefits of the previous policy, enacting a new policy takes time. Depending on your administrative efficiency it can take several years until you reap the full benefits of a +1% Tax Efficiency, just like in real life..

Not only countries have laws, many international organizations have laws as well, where in some of them it's something the leader like The Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire could enact on their own, in some there are specific countries that can vote on the policy being approved or not, and many more options possible. We will go into details about those when we talk about specific International Organizations.

So what type of policies do we have in the laws? Well, they are not just modifier-stacks like many things in previous games, but they enable and disable mechanics, they make estates happy or unhappy, and have impact on your societal values.

Here are a few examples of laws.

The Levy Law here is an interesting choice. 2% more of the peasants is a fair bit more than 20% of the nobles, but over time it has an impact over what your military focuses on.

levy_law.png

Or is it a way to kill nobles more efficiently?

Naval Doctrines was a concept in EU4, and here it is a law with lots of different options depending on who you play as.
naval_doctrine.png

Wooden Wall, the best for England right?

Your Legal Code has many different options depending on who you play, but as England you definitely have the important choice.

common_law.png

More efficient government or more happy estates? or just the traditions?

In the later part of the game, the Press Laws is something you have to decide upon..

press_laws.png

This is a tough choice, isn't it?

If you go with free press, the burghers might start building these in different towns and cities.
local_newspaper.png

There should be no drawbacks to this... right? right???

Here is an example of a religious law, about what religion your heirs can belong to.
heir_laws.png

Clearly the clergy are not as tolerant as they need to be.



Speaking of Heirs, the “Succession Law” mechanic is not technically a law, but uses another mechanic, primarily because we want to always ensure that it's valid, and enforcing a country to always have one. This Special Law is very much dependent on government type.

We have lots of unique ones, like the Papal Conclave, where when the pope dies, the cardinals gather to debate who will be the new pope. This can be quick, but sometimes it may take several years. We have different election methods for republics, and of course the old classic Salic and Semi-Salic Laws as some of the options for Monarchies.
salic_law.png

A difference on view of this will never cause any wars I'm sure..

For all of you that like to modify games, all of these are 100% controlled from textfiles.

Stay tuned, because next week we will finally talk about ages and institutions, which is something we have hinted at for many weeks.
 
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you will lose the -10% immediately.

but then you start at (iirc) 10% of the next bonus so its -5% or so.. so for a short period they have a better target satisfaction.
I like the delay actually, primarily from realism and decision importance view, but just keep in mind that there is an argument to be had that there will be friction from players that the time from their ACTION to the RESULT is delayed and might not be clearly visible, from which confusion and then anger/dissapointment might brew. Whether warranted or not.

As in other titles, the RESULT of your ACTION can (usually) be instantly seen the next month.

Basically I am just asking for:

More Graphs
More Charts
More Pies

Will be interesting to see the story of a country in in-depth visualisations over centuries.
 
We do that already :) Any more suggestions for parliament names?


Didn't see this message before I wrote my previous one but some examples:

Norway: Storting
Denmark: Rigsdagen
Holy Roman Empire: Reichstag
Scotland: Estates of Parliament
Ireland: Parliament
Portugal: Cortes
Hungary: Dieta or Országgyűlés
Bohemia Landtag or Diet
Transylvania: Dieta
Lithuania: Seimas (later part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth with the Sejm)
Venice: Maggior Consiglio (Great Council)
Genoa: Consiglio Maggiore (Great Council)
Netherlands: Staten-Generaal (States General)
Switzerland: Tagsatzung
Russia: Zemsky Sobor (Assembly of the Land)
Naples: Parlamento
Sicily: Parlamento
Brandenburg-Prussia: Landtag
Bavaria: Landtag
Savoy: Consiglio Generale (General Council)
Florence: Consiglio Maggiore (Great Council)
Papal States: Consistori
Muscovy (Russia): Boyar Duma
Ottoman Empire: Divan (Imperial Council)
Mamluk Sultanate: Majlis (Council)
Persia (Safavid Empire): Majlis (Council)
Ming Dynasty China: Grand Secretariat (Neige)
Joseon Korea: Uijeongbu (State Council)
Japan (Tokugawa Shogunate): Bakufu (Shogunate government)
Habsburg Monarchy: Reichstag (Imperial Diet), Landtage (provincial diets)
Piedmont-Sardinia: Consiglio degli Stati (Council of States)
Burgundy: États (Estates)
Swabia (part of Holy Roman Empire): Swabian League Diet
Wales: National Assembly (historically under English rule post-1282)
Moravia: Landtag
Croatia: Sabor
Serbia: Zbor (Assembly)
Montenegro: Zbor (Assembly)
Bulgaria: Sobor (Council)
Bosnia: Stanak (Assembly)
Georgia: Darbazi (Council)
Armenia: Zhoghov (Council)
Lithuania (early periods before the Union with Poland): Seimas
Moldavia: Sfatul Țării (Council of the Land), Divan (under Ottoman)
Wallachia: Sfatul Țării (Council of the Land), Divan (under Ottoman)
Ethiopia: Council of the State (Mekwanint)
Iceland: Althing
India (Mughal Empire): Diwan-i-Khas (Privy Council)
India (Maratha Empire): Ashtapradhan (Council of Eight Ministers)
India (Vijayanagara Empire): Maha Mandaleshwara Sabha (Great Council of Lords)
India (Chola Dynasty): Ur and Nadu Assemblies (Local village and regional councils)
Byzantine Empire: Senate (Synkletos or Gerousia)
Al-Andalus (Muslim Spain): Majlis al-Shura (Consultative Council)
Ayyubid Sultanate: Majlis (Council)
Fatimid Caliphate: Majlis al-Shura (Consultative Council)
Timurid Empire: Divan (Council)
Khmer Empire: Royal Court and Council of Ministers
Majapahit Empire (Indonesia): Bhattara Saptaprabhu (Council of Seven Ministers)
Siam (Thailand): Rachasapha (Royal Assembly)
Vietnam (Nguyen Dynasty): Lại Bộ (Ministry of Administration)
Aztec Empire: Tlatocan (Council of Nobles)
Inca Empire: Council of Four (Tahuantinsuyu)
Ethiopia: Council of the State (Mekwanint)
Mali Empire: Gbara (Great Assembly)
Benin Empire: Uzama (Council of Chiefs)
Kievan Rus': Veche (Assembly)
Republic of Ragusa (Dubrovnik): Consilium Rogatorum (Senate)
 
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Didn't see this message before I wrote my previous one but some examples:

Norway: Storting
Denmark: Rigsdagen
Holy Roman Empire: Reichstag
Scotland: Estates of Parliament
Ireland: Parliament
Portugal: Cortes
Hungary: Dieta or Országgyűlés
Bohemia Landtag or Diet
Transylvania: Dieta
Lithuania: Seimas (later part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth with the Sejm)
Venice: Maggior Consiglio (Great Council)
Genoa: Consiglio Maggiore (Great Council)
Netherlands: Staten-Generaal (States General)
Switzerland: Tagsatzung
Russia: Zemsky Sobor (Assembly of the Land)
Naples: Parlamento
Sicily: Parlamento
Brandenburg-Prussia: Landtag
Bavaria: Landtag
Savoy: Consiglio Generale (General Council)
Florence: Consiglio Maggiore (Great Council)
Papal States: Consistori
Muscovy (Russia): Boyar Duma
Ottoman Empire: Divan (Imperial Council)
Mamluk Sultanate: Majlis (Council)
Persia (Safavid Empire): Majlis (Council)
Ming Dynasty China: Grand Secretariat (Neige)
Joseon Korea: Uijeongbu (State Council)
Japan (Tokugawa Shogunate): Bakufu (Shogunate government)
Habsburg Monarchy: Reichstag (Imperial Diet), Landtage (provincial diets)
Piedmont-Sardinia: Consiglio degli Stati (Council of States)
Burgundy: États (Estates)
Swabia (part of Holy Roman Empire): Swabian League Diet
Wales: National Assembly (historically under English rule post-1282)
Moravia: Landtag
Croatia: Sabor
Serbia: Zbor (Assembly)
Montenegro: Zbor (Assembly)
Bulgaria: Sobor (Council)
Bosnia: Stanak (Assembly)
Georgia: Darbazi (Council)
Armenia: Zhoghov (Council)
Lithuania (early periods before the Union with Poland): Seimas
Moldavia: Divan
Wallachia: Divan
Ethiopia: Council of the State (Mekwanint)
Iceland: Althing

I am a bit confused, the Bakufu is not a parliament. A Divan is also generally a government office more akin to a ministry.
 
To the same place the money building ships or roads or buildings go to.
Building ships/roads/buildings money goes to buying the material used to build the ship/road/building and to paying the people who work on the construction of the ship/road/building.

Changing law money doesn't make much sense. And even more if it is a flat one-time payment cost.

I don't think it should cost any money. But if it needs to cost money for the gameplay making sense, can you at least make it proportional to the size of the country instead?

Wouldn't it make more sense to make it a % of the size of the population/economy/provinces, and a monthly maintenance cost that ends when the policy is fully implemented?

Maybe the one-time payment VS monthly maintenance cost is not so important, but I'm really worried about the money cost being the same flat amount for all countries regardless their size.

Please, don't make it that it costs the same money for China to change a law than it costs for Andorra. Try to make things proportional. This is essential to avoid the snowball effect in the game.
 
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We do that already :) Any more suggestions for parliament names?
For Hungary, Diet sounds the most appropriate in my opinion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diet_of_Hungary)
The same article also mentions that the usage of "parlamentum" preceded "diet". Both are fine, but you could also consider using the Hungarian term "országgyűlés"(country assembly). So there are multiple options.

...maybe I would still go with "Diet of Hungary", after all. It just feels right.
 
We do that already :) Any more suggestions for parliament names?
A state assembly in medieval Serbia was called Sabor (something like “Sabor of the Serbian land” would work as the full name). This Wikipedia article actually provides a pretty good overview, and there’s surprisingly a good academic source available in English. Both of these also touch on the situations in the neighboring countries and could be useful for names and titles, especially for Bosnia since I doubt a dedicated English-language source is available.
 
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This is true, but this is due to universal schooling. This is only just appearing as an idea at the end of this period in Europe. For most of the time we're talking about, state press only was associated with literacy suppression and a suspicion of universal literacy, as well as societies which were generally less literate.
Do you have few examples of states which suppressed schooling of their citizens, while making all press state controlled during the game timespan?
 
Do you have few examples of states which suppressed schooling of their citizens, while making all press state controlled during the game timespan?

It was usually neglect rather than active suppression of education - the Russian Empire did not offer much education to peasant subjects who had terrible literacy rates. The negative effect of state press is reducing the functional utility of literacy in less literate societies. When the Dutch swapped the language of documents and education in Java away from Javanese literacy significwntly fell for men and women because it became less important.
 
It was usually neglect rather than active suppression of education - the Russian Empire did not offer much education to peasant subjects who had terrible literacy rates. The negative effect of state press is reducing the functional utility of literacy in less literate societies. When the Dutch swapped the language of documents and education in Java away from Javanese literacy significwntly fell for men and women because it became less important.
You said it yourself, it was neglect, not an active policy of keeping people illiterate. States mostly didn't care about literacy of general population at that time.
 
You said it yourself, it was neglect, not an active policy of keeping people illiterate. States mostly didn't care about literacy of general population at that time.

OK. I think that is splitting hairs because neglect is an active choice taken by countries and not just 'how it is' but I don't care to be pulled into such a semantic argument.