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Tinto Talks #19 - 3rd of July 2024

Hello Everyone and Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday when we talk about the most secret game with the code name “Project Caesar”

This week we’ll talk about the ages and institutions, concepts that were first introduced in a patch to EU4. They were a convenient mechanic to make different eras feel different, but soon became too gamified with development ruining the institution game.

Every age introduces several new “REDACTED”, adds several possible new government reforms you can pick from, impacts the price stability of goods, and also has some direct impacts on every country. In every age, the amount of gold you pay for your raised levies will increase, and the size of the army you are expected to have increases. Each age is global in the world, but its true impact is gradual. There is no special mana you gain through achieving goals that you can use to stack modifiers with.

ages.png

Ages of Traditions have passed, and we have just entered the Age of Renaissance here..

Each age also has three institutions that will spawn, each will unlock “REDACTED” and spread across the world.

We have designed the institution spawns to be more rigid for the first ages, and be more flexible in later ages, to guide the game in a certain direction. For those of you who dislike the dynamic spawning of institutions, you can put it in “historical” mode, and it will spawn in the same location every time.

rule.png

There are only two options for this rule at the moment.

The spread takes time, as it can only spread through adjacent locations or across a single sealane, unless you have trade routes from a market center that has embraced it. The speed it spreads is also impacted by the literacy of the population. If you have embraced an institution, then it will spread in proportion to your control in your owned locations.

When an institution has spread to more than 10% of the population in your country, you can embrace it, meaning you will get access to the “REDACTED” it will give you.

As the technology system in Project Caesar is different than the one in EU4, missing an institution for a while is NOT a complete disaster, but more on that next week.

In later ages you can also start assigning a member of your cabinet to promote institutions in a province, which will then progress any institution you are aware of in the locations of that province. Promoting is heavily based on the burghers and the literacy of a location.

There are 6 ages in the game, and in 1337 we start in the Age of Traditions, and each age from there on lasts about a century.


age_1_traditions.jpg

It was the definitely the best of times...

Age of Traditions
Different societies have been established throughout the world for hundreds and thousands of years, and their foundations can be framed in traditions such as Legalism, Meritocracy, or Feudalism.

Legalism
We gave this institution the spawn point of Rome, even though there are plenty of places that could compete for it. Most of the Old World has this institution spread and embraced at the start of the game.

The theories behind Legalism have been integrating into Chinese societal structures for hundreds of years. The concept that pure idealism and domestic stability leads to a rich, prosperous state and a powerful army is deeply rooted in the forums of thought in the Eastern Asian domains. However, as merchants and migrants brought forth the exchange of ideas, the concept of Legalism made its way across the vast expanses of the Muslim world. There, it adopted the stance of a symbiotic relationship between heathens and believers in Islamic states. Legalism in Europe signified the rite of passage, from the dying grasps of the great Roman Empire to its remnant legal roots, many of which would later serve as the basis for new jurisprudence across the old continent.

Meritocracy
This has the birthplace in Beijing and at the start of the game, it has only spread through East Asia.

Many individuals of great prestige and in positions of power often chose to appoint those closest to them in influential spots. The advent of Meritocracy as an institution and a thought movement was largely popular in the courts of Imperial China. There, Confucius himself supported the notion that those who govern should do so on the basis of merit, not of inherited status. This led to the replacement of the Chinese nobility of blood ties to one based solely on meritocratic abilities. This institution's development would ripple across and beyond the borders of Asia and would eventually reach the royal courts of even European monarchs whose Nobles had a firm grasp on the mechanisms of power and authority.

Feudalism
This has its birthplace in Aachen, the capital of the Roman Empire under Charlemagne. It has spread in most of the Old World as well.

Over time, most societies develop a need for a common structure with stronger and more permanent institutions of government. After the fall of the Roman Empire, this need came to be filled by a number of institutions and customs that taken together are often considered to be part of the European Feudal system. For similar reasons, permanent government and societal systems have formed all over the world, some of which have roots that go far further back than Feudalism itself.


age_2_renaissance.jpg

Have we show this image before?

Age of Renaissance
A new era of knowledge, arts, and progress is emerging due to growing interactions and institutions in the medieval societies affected by Pax Mongolica, the Islamic Golden Age, and the European Renaissance.

Renaissance
This institution will spawn soon after the age starts in a Northern Italian City with a University. The historical location is Florence.

Starting now in the 14th century, the wealthy and powerful in the Italian City states have been patronizing artists and scholars willing to explore the old Roman and Greek societies of their forefathers. As a cultural movement the Renaissance already encompasses most of the region and has had a profound impact on literature, art, philosophy, and music. Humanist scholars are also analyzing the society in which they live, comparing it to the ideals of the Classical philosophers. Renaissance Humanism has grown into a more mature movement, ready to permeate all aspects of society. A new ideal for rulers as well as those who are ruled is spreading as quickly as the early Printers can distribute copies of these new ideas. A true Renaissance Humanist is an expert on everything from politics and philosophy to art, textual analysis, music, and architecture. The Renaissance is now ready to reshape the world to better fit its classical ideals.

Banking
This can spawn in any town or city with more than 1000 burghers in Europe, North Africa or the Middle East, where the owner has a strong “Capital Economy” Societal Value. The historical location is Genoa.

Money lending has existed since metal-based coins appeared in Antiquity. However, it depended on some individuals and their family groupings or on the Ancient States. A shift occurred in the Middle Ages, encouraged by the renewed growth of long-range commercial activities on the Eurasian continent and its peripheries. Specialized moneylenders began to organize when Jewish communities started operating between the Christian and Islamic worlds. However, the boom of credit demand that followed the Crusades in the 12th century encouraged merchants in the Italian city-states to create larger structures for money lending, effectively founding the first Banking institutions, such as the Peruzzi and Bardi houses. More instruments were developed, like bills of exchange and debt bonds, and Banking dynasties such as the Medici, Fugger or Welser soon became as powerful as States.

Professional Armies
This can spawn in any location in Europe, which has some manpower produced, where the owner has a “Quality” Societal Value. The historical location is Paris.

Armies have existed since war was invented, many thousands of years ago. However, their form has changed over the centuries and different types of recruitment and organization have developed in different cultures and periods. In the Late Middle Ages, armies in a wide range of societies relied on levies based on the structures of feudal society, with knights and footmen forming a core that was levied seasonally. In some regions, however, states were powerful enough to finance standing armies, with professional soldiers who would be available for duty throughout the year. This system was also developed in Europe after the outbreak of the Hundred Year's War, being one of the main changes that promoted a Military Revolution in the Early Modern Age. Increasing the size and quality of Professional Armies, while finding new sources of revenue to finance them, soon became one of the main challenges for rulers around the world.

age_3_discovery.jpg

This looks like a nice place to add to the Spanish Empire!

Age of Discovery
At the dawn of the Early Modern era new continents are being mapped while feudal society is slowly giving way to centralized states. For an enterprising state this age can see the foundation of a worldwide empire.

New World
This will spawn in any port in Western Europe or North Africa, with more than 2,000 burghers, and where the owner has discovered the Azores and the West African Coastline. The historical location is Sevilla.

The discovery of the New World has heralded a new era not only for the colonizers and the colonized, but it has also led to the spread of materials and techniques as well as a realization of the vastness of the globe. As animals, crop types, silver and diseases spread across the Atlantic, the first steps have been taken towards a truly global economy. With foreign lands and people being mapped and documented, ideas as well as religious and philosophical debate are increasingly being colored by what we have found in overseas societies. Great minds feel the need to question what was once truth, and from Valladolid to Fatehpur Sikri, the nature of the world is now up for debate.

Printing Press
This can spawn in any location with more than 2,000 burghers, where the owner produces more than 5 paper and has an “Outward” Societal Value. The historical location is Mainz.

The ability to mass-produce the written word would revolutionize the spread of information and in many ways early modern society as a whole. Pioneered by Renaissance men such as Venetian Printer Aldus Manutius, the new art helped fuel the Renaissance by making the translated classics more widely available. Later the Reformation benefitted greatly from the ability to spread critical publications and translations of the Holy Scriptures. Now that Printing has matured as a technique and spread throughout Europe, hundreds of thousands of copies of everything from Religious and Political pamphlets to scientific treatises and instructions on how to behave are circulating the continent. With print shops growing evermore commonplace, rulers have found it hard to contain the new technique as the comparatively easy means of production means censorship can be sidestepped by moving business across a border or even just changing the name on a title page.

Pike & Shot
This spawns in a location, which has some manpower produced, where the owner has Professional Armies, more than 20 Army Tradition and a “Land” Societal Values, and have the gunpowder technology. The historical location is Innsbruck.

A new type of warfare began to develop at the end of the 15th Century, in the midst of the Italian Wars. The generalization of pikemen in the Late Middle Ages as an alternative to men-at-arms who could successfully face heavy cavalry charges was accompanied by the development of portable firearms, mainly matchlock arquebuses and muskets. The soldiers now adopt a new formation, in which the pikemen form a square, while the arquebusiers fan out to the sides and front, and seek cover behind or inside the square in case the formation enters close combat. This new type of formation, called Pike & Shot, was favored by German Landsknechts and Spanish Tercios, and was soon adopted by other armies, reigning supreme on European battlefields for nearly two centuries, until superseded in the early 18th Century by line infantry formations armed with new flintlock muskets mounting bayonets.

age_4_reformation.jpg

The heretic is trying to defend his heresy.

Age of Reformation
From East to West this is the age of religious conviction, debates and mass movements. In Europe, the protestant churches are entrenched while millenarianism takes hold of Iran and religious Syncretism shapes Indian society.

Confessionalism
This spawns in a town or city in Europe, which has a printing press, where the owner is Catholic, and the dominant religion is Catholic, and has a “Spiritualist” societal value. The historical location is Augsburg.

Catholicism has been regarded as a unitary entity for a long time, but the advent of the various Protestant Faiths has put an end to that. With the rise of a myriad of different interpretations of what the Faith should be, Christianity is all but united. But where before any deviance from the Church could be easily labeled as heretic, now the lines creating the differences have become blurrier at least. As such, there has been an increasing interest both for religious and secular authorities alike to clearly define the shapes of their specific confessions, enforcing their particular rules and views on all aspects of faith and life. This allows them a more firm grip on the faith of their population, but also increases the differentiation and thus animosity with all the other confessions.

Global Trade
This spawns in a market center in a city anywhere in the world that has among the most value of goods traded. The historical location is Lisbon.

Goods have been moved across continents since antiquity. But where this was previously limited to a set number of routes and goods such as the manufactured goods of India and China finding their way across the Indian Ocean and along the Silk Road, all trade is now increasingly becoming part of a greater world network. With the discovery of the Americas, sea routes around Africa and the crossing of the Pacific Ocean, local trade networks are being connected into one world-spanning interconnected web. Silver mined in the Andes is now being boxed and taken via Europe all the way to China and India. Iron mined and wrought in Scandinavia is being sold in West Africa by English merchants, and others are making a fortune just distributing cloth and spices within the Southeast Asian trade sphere. Local Indian merchants are investing in future European trade ventures. It may still be early to speak of a truly Global Economy, but surely the first seeds have been sown.

Artillery
This will spawn in any city in the world that has a gunsmith and a metal workshop, and where the owner has an “Offensive” Societal Value. The historical location is Constantinople.

The invention of gunpowder in Song China led to the development of a new device that would employ its firepower in warfare, the artillery. Although it spread throughout Eurasia in the 13th Century, its use as a common weapon system did not happen until the 15th century, as improvements in the cannon length and gunpowder recipe made artillery much more powerful, now posing a threat to stone-built castles and fortifications, the most common in Europe. Soon artillery would be used not only in sieges but also on battlefields, as smaller caliber guns now featured the mobility required to be quickly deployed and used. Its final development as a key warfare system would come in the 18th Century, especially after Napoleon perfected its use at key points during battles.

age_5_absolutism.jpg

L'État, c'est moi.

Age of Absolutism
As governments wrest the absolute power in their countries from other parties, they are now able to devote themselves to the building of Empires. This is the age of the state, of rulers, and their armies.

Manufactories
This will spawn in any location with more than 100 building levels, and at least 20,000 Burghers, and where the owner has a “Capital Economy” Societal Value. The historical location is Derby.

While a number of technical innovations during the course of the 16th and 17th centuries have increased the output of production for some products such as iron or cloth to an extent, the biggest improvement in the field of production has come in the form of new forms of organization. By creating manufactories, often outside the city limits, merchant capitalists can both bypass the ancient guild laws that inhibit mass production, and pioneer ways to increase production through the organization and specialization of labor in one place. The forerunners of the later Industrialization were able to increase output by facilitating access to raw materials and mass organization of labor rather than by expensive new machinery. This is in itself a huge change over the often heavily regulated methods of old, however, and together with later technical advances this new mode of production will come to revolutionize society.

Scientific Revolution
This spawns in a location with a university, and a high average literacy, where the owner has a “Innovative” Societal Value. The historical location is Cambridge.

It is clear that the world is smaller now than ever before. The rise of a global trade and the printing industry led to an increased flow of people and ideas, allowing for a more widespread dissemination of knowledge. This in turn resulted in a more thorough questioning and analysis of the reality of the world. What was once just accepted as fact is now questioned, what was only poorly understood is now observed, and what was only supposed, tested. The recent advancements in areas such as mathematics, physics., or biology are undeniable, but the real revolution is the change in the perception and approach towards science itself and the way of understanding it. Systematic experimentation is the true scientific revolution, and it will surely change completely our conception of the world.

Military Revolution
This can spawn in any capital with a lot of military buildings and that has a population over 50,000. The historical location is Stockholm.

The continuous state of war affecting Europe in the 16th and 17th Centuries leads to a sharp increase in the size of armies, as a necessity born of the growing authority of competing absolutist regimes. The infantry is now armed en masse with flintlock muskets, greatly increasing their firepower and performance in battle by being deployed in the innovative line formation, replacing the old Pike & Shot. Those needs also affect the capabilities of the state administration as it continues to expand to handle the manpower and finances required by this increase in the size of the military. That also is spearheading the development of the supply chains required to feed and sustain armies, through intermediate depots that support the operational armies. The result of these advances would be none other than an upsurge of wars between increasingly militarized countries in the 18th Century.


age_6_revolutions.jpg

Its one way to deal with the nobility I guess?

Age of Revolutions
The questioning of rights, authority and the world itself during the Enlightenment has led to the rejection of the Ancient Regime. As Absolutism gives way to Revolution kingdoms may have to make place for Republics.

Enlightenment
This spawns in a location with a university, and a high average literacy, where the owner has an “Innovative” Societal Value. The historical location is Paris.

The last century has seen Rationalism and Empiricism gaining an ever-increasing popularity among the great minds of the age. In letters, publications and coffee houses, kings, scientists, philosophers, and littérateurs are discussing the merits of tolerance, the scientific method, and the spreading of the ideals of the Enlightenment to all of humanity. From universities or courts of enlightened monarchs, expeditions are being sent to measure, catalog, weigh, and map the world so that we can better understand the laws that govern everything around us. Others discuss the laws that govern society and try to reach an understanding of the Rights of Man. Great projects such as the colossal undertaking of creating a complete encyclopedia of all knowledge or a complete index of all plants, animals, and fungi in the world are being pursued for the greater good of humanity. The Light of Reason has been lit and many will not rest until it has been brought to all corners of the earth.

Industrialization
This will spawn in any location with more than 250 building levels, and at least 20,000 Burghers, and where the owner has a “Capital Economy” Societal Value. The historical location is Blackburn.

The dawn of the 18th century gave rise to many new institutions as man's thirst for growth took hold. Advances in the field of production, and manufacturing as well as the introduction of complicated machinery will change the world as we know it on a global scale. The rise of the Industrial Revolution brings about international and lasting changes not just in commerce and business but in the fabric of society itself. Inventions such as the power loom and steam engines shall push the capabilities of mankind to its highest zenith yet.

Levée en Masse
This can spawn in any capital with a lot of military buildings and that has a population over 200,000, and where the owner has a “Defensive” Societal Value. The historical location is Paris.

Warfare is an ever-evolving concept, innovated and honed generation after generation. The 18th century saw the rise of powerful empires, each with its own ambitions. To satisfy the need for expansion and provide the fuel necessary to fulfill these ambitions, new nationwide conscription laws will be drafted and signed in effect, raising armies of all unmarried young men, the size of which will shape the course of history.

Next week we talk about what replaced the technology and national ideas system for Project Caesar.
 
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Where does that estimate come from? From what I looked Europe strongly outproduced China in the 16th century.


Where did you derive or read the output of the 2 different designs?

Edit: nevermind found a source:


I have been able to trace the claim back to a podcast with military historian Kenneth Swope. ( link after 00:12:30). Which I'll admit is a bit iffy. Since I don't have anything black on white and don't know where Kenneth got it from, I'll retract it for now. I will say that Swope is a very good military historian of Ming China and strongly recommend his books "The Military Collapse Of China's Ming Dynasty, 1618–44" and "A Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail: Ming China and the First Great East Asian War, 1592–1598".

I did find this.
Benjamin Elman in "Collecting and Classifying: Ming Dynasty Compendia and Encyclopedias (Leishu)", (2007),131-157, (link to .pdf), p.138 claims that:

"These elite tiers of print culture extended all the way down to the provincial hinterlands, where local and regional families involved in paper production, wood-block carving, and ink manufacture helped printers to produce more printed items in China than anywhere else in the world between 1600 and 1800."

Sadly, this claim also comes without a footnote.


I looked at the 'Eric Examines' blog post and I must say I think it is a very bad source. He provides no sources for any claims about China, while his claims look to someone with a sinology background completely absurd.
His graphs have Chinese printing technology producing a mere 40 pages a day, which seem incredibly low. Probably a well-trained scribe could do that by hand everyday?
For comparison Wikipedia cites, Tsien, Tsuen-Hsuin (1985). Paper and Printing. Needham, Joseph Science and Civilization in China. Vol. 5 part 1. Cambridge University Press., that a skilled printer could produce 1500-2000 double sheers per day.

His graph on book collection sizes has China staying stagnant for 300-1450, 1523 & 1649. Which is just utterly ridiculous. For comparison, Timothy Brook in The Troubled Empire: China in the Yuan and Ming Dynasties in chapter eight on material culture: books (I only have access to the Chinese translation right now, so can't give page numbers), claims that no Song dynasty collector could have hoped to collect over a 1000 works, while during the Ming dynasty there were multiple (multiple of tens) collections running over a 10.000 works.

According to Ashton Ng in "Bibliophilia: the Passion of Ming Dynasty Private Book Collectors", Ming Qing janjiu, 279-300, (2020), link - researchgate, there were even collections with over a 100.000 scrolls (283) [emphasis mine]. I want to point out here that the word 'scrolls' here probably does not mean a literal scroll, but the classifier 卷 juan. Juan originally meant scroll, but by the Ming dynasty (and nowadays also) it just a word to count books. A collection of 100k 'scrolls', may include actual handwritten/copied scrolls, but most likelymostly printed books.



To conclude. Thanks for keeping me sharp. I cannot directly back up my claim that aroudn 1600 over half the world's books were in Ming China. Comparing European and Chinese book production is probably a bit difficult anyway because of the differences in how texts are classified. I have discovered an enormous rabbit hole I want to dive into.

But for now, please disregard the Eric Examines blog post. It is very wrong on multiple counts and does the typical thing of making comparitive claims between Europe and not-Europe without actually looking at or knowing anything about not-Europe. (In this post I kinda did the reverse).

I want to look into this more, but not sure if this is the place to discuss these things. But my short survey this afternoon has led me to the following conclusions.
There was definitley a Printing Revolution in Ming China. There were developments in printing technology that led to increasing quality and dropping cost. There was commercial printing industry centered in Jiangnan and Fujian. There was a broad expansion of the (male) literacy rate. There was a great increase of demand of books. Not just by the elites and not just for the classics, but also much more low brow genres. It is propbably no coincide that Heroes of the Water Margin (水滸傳) & Journey to the West (西游記) stem from this period.
 
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@Johan

For history's sake, the printing press should already have existed in SE Asia (Korea, specifically) FIFTY years before the European's got it right. Otherwise, the INSTITUTION won't make sense when it has to make its way to SE Asia, specifically Korea.
 
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Hello,

I do not know if it was already mentioned if it is set in stone that there will be three institutions for each age. Still, it might be interesting to allow other modifiers regarding the capacity of the said institutions in the different ages. As well as how an institution implies an "umbrella" term, which expands on other additional concepts. Ultimately, in my opinion, it opens the door for a DLC to be created regarding the expansion of institutions and their various functions, but I still would like to see more changes regarding the age. The age of revolution and the age of absolutism is pretty much solid, in my opinion, but I think much of the community has issues with the beginning/middle ages regarding their institutions (staying out of that mess).

Overall, I am enjoying what is being created so far.
 
I have been able to trace the claim back to a podcast with military historian Kenneth Swope. ( link after 00:12:30). Which I'll admit is a bit iffy. Since I don't have anything black on white and don't know where Kenneth got it from, I'll retract it for now. I will say that Swope is a very good military historian of Ming China and strongly recommend his books "The Military Collapse Of China's Ming Dynasty, 1618–44" and "A Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail: Ming China and the First Great East Asian War, 1592–1598".

I did find this.
Benjamin Elman in "Collecting and Classifying: Ming Dynasty Compendia and Encyclopedias (Leishu)", (2007),131-157, (link to .pdf), p.138 claims that:

"These elite tiers of print culture extended all the way down to the provincial hinterlands, where local and regional families involved in paper production, wood-block carving, and ink manufacture helped printers to produce more printed items in China than anywhere else in the world between 1600 and 1800."

Sadly, this claim also comes without a footnote.


I looked at the 'Eric Examines' blog post and I must say I think it is a very bad source. He provides no sources for any claims about China, while his claims look to someone with a sinology background completely absurd.
His graphs have Chinese printing technology producing a mere 40 pages a day, which seem incredibly low. Probably a well-trained scribe could do that by hand everyday?
For comparison Wikipedia cites, Tsien, Tsuen-Hsuin (1985). Paper and Printing. Needham, Joseph Science and Civilization in China. Vol. 5 part 1. Cambridge University Press., that a skilled printer could produce 1500-2000 double sheers per day.

His graph on book collection sizes has China staying stagnant for 300-1450, 1523 & 1649. Which is just utterly ridiculous. For comparison, Timothy Brook in The Troubled Empire: China in the Yuan and Ming Dynasties in chapter eight on material culture: books (I only have access to the Chinese translation right now, so can't give page numbers), claims that no Song dynasty collector could have hoped to collect over a 1000 works, while during the Ming dynasty there were multiple (multiple of tens) collections running over a 10.000 works.

According to Ashton Ng in "Bibliophilia: the Passion of Ming Dynasty Private Book Collectors", Ming Qing janjiu, 279-300, (2020), link - researchgate, there were even collections with over a 100.000 scrolls (283) [emphasis mine]. I want to point out here that the word 'scrolls' here probably does not mean a literal scroll, but the classifier 卷 juan. Juan originally meant scroll, but by the Ming dynasty (and nowadays also) it just a word to count books. A collection of 100k 'scrolls', may include actual handwritten/copied scrolls, but most likelymostly printed books.



To conclude. Thanks for keeping me sharp. I cannot directly back up my claim that aroudn 1600 over half the world's books were in Ming China. Comparing European and Chinese book production is probably a bit difficult anyway because of the differences in how texts are classified. I have discovered an enormous rabbit hole I want to dive into.

But for now, please disregard the Eric Examines blog post. It is very wrong on multiple counts and does the typical thing of making comparitive claims between Europe and not-Europe without actually looking at or knowing anything about not-Europe. (In this post I kinda did the reverse).

I want to look into this more, but not sure if this is the place to discuss these things. But my short survey this afternoon has led me to the following conclusions.
There was definitley a Printing Revolution in Ming China. There were developments in printing technology that led to increasing quality and dropping cost. There was commercial printing industry centered in Jiangnan and Fujian. There was a broad expansion of the (male) literacy rate. There was a great increase of demand of books. Not just by the elites and not just for the classics, but also much more low brow genres. It is propbably no coincide that Heroes of the Water Margin (水滸傳) & Journey to the West (西游記) stem from this period.

This source also claims that book production was higher in Europe in terms of titles:

1720176116113.png

Yet to use book production per capita to estimate literacy in China forthe purpose of systematic comparisons with Europe is problematic, becauseno comprehensive data on long-run trends of manuscript and book production and consumption exists for China (Table 4). One estimate is thatthere were 181,755 surviving titles in total (later editions for the same titles are not included): 12,787 titles from Western Han to Southern andNorthern Dynasties (202 BC–581 AD) (a yearly average of 16 titles forthe 783 years); 10,036 titles under the Tang (618–907) (a yearly averageof 35 titles for the 289 years), 32,283 titles from the Five Dynasties tothe Ming (901–1644) (a yearly average of 43 titles for the 743 years);and 126,649 titles under the Qing (a yearly average of 471 titles for the267 years from 1644–1911) (G. Wu, 1986, p. 27). The estimate for theQing is the same as Tsien’s estimate that there were “253,435 titles registered in various dynastic and other bibliographies from Han [206–20 BC]to the 1930s of which 126,649 were produced under the [Qing]” (Tsien,1985, p. 190, note f). Not all experts on Chinese book history agree withthis figure. Other estimates for surviving manuscripts and books in Chinarange from 70,000–80,000 to 200,000 titles (Wang, 1982, p. 198; F. Wu,2002, p. 317). The Qing figure is substantially higher because the dataare mainly based on the Qing bibliographies. For data on the Ming, onecatalogue compiled under the Qing listed 15,725 works by Ming authors(a yearly average of 57 titles from 1368–1644) (Zhang, 1989, p. 336).

Even if we double the total number of books produced in China in orderto include books lost, depreciated, and taken abroad, for example, for theperiod 1651–1700, the total number comes to 47,100 and the per capitanumber comes to 472. The numbers are still much lower than the European data.

These figures would not impress European historians. They wouldpoint out that from 1501 to 1550, there were 79,017 printed books inEurope (2,807 in Britain), or from 1751 to 1800, there were 628,801books in Europe (138,355 in Britain) (Buringh & Van Zanden, 2009,Table 2). Yet the Chinese figures are likely to underestimate the actualflows and only indicate the lower bound numbers, because the estimatesoverlooked many kinds of books including religious works, local compilations, and commercial publications and did not include books lost or sent abroad.3

Conclusion from the paper is thus:

This paper discussed the long-term trends of book production and circulation in the Chinese empire, compared them to Europe, and speculated abouttheir connections to long-term socio-economic change in China. Through the examination of printing technologies, literacy and urbanization, bookprices, and access to and control over knowledge, it concludes that the circulation of books in China was substantially less than in Europe. It also analysed the demand for and supply of books containing potentially usefulknowledge. The limited data available shows that there was continuityunder Song–Yuan–Ming dynasties and that could be correlated with theslow but steady technological advance over these centuries (Smith & VonGlahn, 2003). On a per capita basis, the growth of book production and circulation declined significantly from the Qing onwards. The decline can belinked to the stronger state control over the dissemination of knowledgewhich can be dated back to the early Ming but intensified under theQing, even though commercialization of book production had expandedunder both dynasties. The hierarchy in the Chinese knowledge system isapparent. Books on useful knowledge constituted but a small share of thelarge number of books produced, published and preserved throughoutChinese history. Priority was accorded to Confucian classics and histories.Books may have played a more limited role as conduits linking theoreticalto tacit knowledge than was the case in Europe.A comparative approach to knowledge formation through the history ofbooks is a way to appreciate the input for innovation in China and Europe.43The data “allows us to see more clearly than before the manifold ways inwhich books express, embody or illustrate the culture in which they are produced and consumed” (Burke, 2008, p. 371). My reading on Europe isincomplete and I intend to write a revised draft by way of more systematiccomparisons between the two cultures. However, a tentative conclusion atthis stage would be that human capital formation probably proceeded at aslower rate in China and significantly declined from ca. 1650 onward interms of generating, disseminating, and acquiring useful knowledge.The research also has implications for contemporary concerns andinterests in the knowledge economy, global knowledge formation, and discussions of their importance for evaluating the recent economic and geopolitical “great convergence” between China and Europe. The rise of “postGutenberg” (digital and internet) publishing in the late twentieth andearly twenty-first centuries has quickened the speed of the circulation of knowledge and expanded access to that knowledge by the public in China.However, the state continues to hold the traditional view of the necessity ofexerting control over information and knowledge within society (e.g. thecensorship and proscription of unauthorized literary works under theQing and during the Mao era) and institutions of censorship continue tobe in operation (e.g. state control over the Web). China is indeed reshapingthe world economy, but the “great convergence” will not occur until Chinamakes further cultural and institutional breakthrough in knowledge formation.
 
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I have been able to trace the claim back to a podcast with military historian Kenneth Swope. ( link after 00:12:30). Which I'll admit is a bit iffy. Since I don't have anything black on white and don't know where Kenneth got it from, I'll retract it for now. I will say that Swope is a very good military historian of Ming China and strongly recommend his books "The Military Collapse Of China's Ming Dynasty, 1618–44" and "A Dragon's Head and a Serpent's Tail: Ming China and the First Great East Asian War, 1592–1598".

I did find this.
Benjamin Elman in "Collecting and Classifying: Ming Dynasty Compendia and Encyclopedias (Leishu)", (2007),131-157, (link to .pdf), p.138 claims that:

"These elite tiers of print culture extended all the way down to the provincial hinterlands, where local and regional families involved in paper production, wood-block carving, and ink manufacture helped printers to produce more printed items in China than anywhere else in the world between 1600 and 1800."

Sadly, this claim also comes without a footnote.


I looked at the 'Eric Examines' blog post and I must say I think it is a very bad source. He provides no sources for any claims about China, while his claims look to someone with a sinology background completely absurd.
His graphs have Chinese printing technology producing a mere 40 pages a day, which seem incredibly low. Probably a well-trained scribe could do that by hand everyday?
For comparison Wikipedia cites, Tsien, Tsuen-Hsuin (1985). Paper and Printing. Needham, Joseph Science and Civilization in China. Vol. 5 part 1. Cambridge University Press., that a skilled printer could produce 1500-2000 double sheers per day.

His graph on book collection sizes has China staying stagnant for 300-1450, 1523 & 1649. Which is just utterly ridiculous. For comparison, Timothy Brook in The Troubled Empire: China in the Yuan and Ming Dynasties in chapter eight on material culture: books (I only have access to the Chinese translation right now, so can't give page numbers), claims that no Song dynasty collector could have hoped to collect over a 1000 works, while during the Ming dynasty there were multiple (multiple of tens) collections running over a 10.000 works.

According to Ashton Ng in "Bibliophilia: the Passion of Ming Dynasty Private Book Collectors", Ming Qing janjiu, 279-300, (2020), link - researchgate, there were even collections with over a 100.000 scrolls (283) [emphasis mine]. I want to point out here that the word 'scrolls' here probably does not mean a literal scroll, but the classifier 卷 juan. Juan originally meant scroll, but by the Ming dynasty (and nowadays also) it just a word to count books. A collection of 100k 'scrolls', may include actual handwritten/copied scrolls, but most likelymostly printed books.



To conclude. Thanks for keeping me sharp. I cannot directly back up my claim that aroudn 1600 over half the world's books were in Ming China. Comparing European and Chinese book production is probably a bit difficult anyway because of the differences in how texts are classified. I have discovered an enormous rabbit hole I want to dive into.

But for now, please disregard the Eric Examines blog post. It is very wrong on multiple counts and does the typical thing of making comparitive claims between Europe and not-Europe without actually looking at or knowing anything about not-Europe. (In this post I kinda did the reverse).

I want to look into this more, but not sure if this is the place to discuss these things. But my short survey this afternoon has led me to the following conclusions.
There was definitley a Printing Revolution in Ming China. There were developments in printing technology that led to increasing quality and dropping cost. There was commercial printing industry centered in Jiangnan and Fujian. There was a broad expansion of the (male) literacy rate. There was a great increase of demand of books. Not just by the elites and not just for the classics, but also much more low brow genres. It is propbably no coincide that Heroes of the Water Margin (水滸傳) & Journey to the West (西游記) stem from this period.
The 40 pages thing seems to come from Wikipedia lol:


"European printing presses of around 1600 were capable of producing between 1,500[51] and 3,600 impressions per workday.[3] By comparison, Far Eastern printing, where the back of the paper was manually rubbed to the page,[52] did not exceed an output of forty pages per day.[4]"

The source is there, I will dig it but the weird thing is that the quote itself says 40 COPIES, not pages

Edit: Found the source... only in Spanish:

 
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Thanks, great find! I found the entire article through scihub also. I think the table you show refers to new unique titles printed (although this is not explicated by the author). I would love to see data on quantity also. Also kinda sad that most of the literature seem to praise the late Ming, and these data don't include the 1550-1650 period.

These data do draw a stark contrast and are pretty damning for China.

I would point out that this gap between Chinese and European production are not necessarily the result of differences in printing technology (or script for that matter). There could be other societal factors at play that would result in a much lower demand in variety of books. Which would not necessarily be a problem for the game mechanic, since it portrays the Printing Press as an institution, not a technology.
 
The Indian textile production, especially that of Bengal and its muslin, was very impressive, indeed. However, its production methods are not exactly what we are portraying as 'Manufacturies', with greater emphasis on intensive productive factors. Nonetheless, converting India into the 'textile factory of the world' is perfectly possible in the game, without accounting for the institution, if investing enough population and money into the matter (and, spoiler, there is plenty of population in India).
Dear Tinto team!!
You could argue that the first 'manufacturies' originated in Holland, though. The wind powered sawmill was invented somewhere around 1600 and turned the "zaanstreek" (just north of amsterdam) into a true industrial area where ships were mass produced.
Without this invention, I am sure the Dutch wouldn't be as dominant in the global trade/colonial scheme as they were during the 17th century.
The speed and scale on which the Dutch built these ocean going ships is seriously INSANE.
Okay, I have to admit, there are some limitations for suggesting the institution of manufactories should originate in the Netherlands. For instance, The Dutch utilized wind power only for a limited set of industries, namely:
  • Ship building (some of these mills are still standing at the Zaanse schans today!) (Dutch Educational text about it, can't find source unfortunately)
    • Between 1700-1730, the shipyards in "Zaanland" produced 100-150 ships A YEAR!! (you have to imagine though that a ship would generally be decommissioned after ~3 journeys to Indonesia as these harsh travels were quite rough on the ship).
    • During the 17th century, other European powers like Sweden and France also commissioned warships at Dutch shipyards.
    • All Dutch children know that the Russian Tsar 'Peter the Great' came to the Netherlands to learn how we built ships (among other things) in the late 17th century.
  • Distillery industry of beer and spirits (Yes! Cities indeed had mills too for production, they were built on high brick bases, towering over the houses to catch the wind, sometimes over 30 meters high. E.g. in the city of Schiedam, some of these 'city mills' are still standing!)
  • Oil processing for lanterns, soap, and paint(!), which also occured in the "Zaan" area en masse during the 1600s, mostly from flax/rapeseed/hemp.
    Some general info about this from the Dutch wiki
  • Paper (also in the Zaan, the last working one remaining in the world!)
  • Mills for processing sturdy grains (peeling, I guess?).
  • And of course.... Milling the swamps down to create the polders! Around a 1000 of which are still sprawling across the country today.
In total, around 1730, only this small area north of Amsterdam contained:
45 sawmills, 160 oil mills, 61 "peeling" mills, 38 paper mills (again form national history education site)
All of these industries started in the early decades of the 1600s. It would make the country prosper beyond the capabilities of our relatively small country size and population, mainly fueled by bulk trade from the Baltic sea (more trees = more ships = more trade!).

unfortunately, I couldn't find contemporary imagery of the sawmills/industry around Amsterdam itself, but I did find a map of the much smaller city of Hoorn in northern Holland, which had its own VOC chapter. Made in the mid 17th century: you can see that a pretty sizable portion of the city was used as a shipyard! Imagine the "Zaanstreek" had 26 shipyards around 1700, so the scale would even be larger.
View attachment Hoorn.jpg(Source)

Eventually though, the Dutch mastery of the windmill would also lead to our decline, as the reliance on windpower made the Dutch less eager to embrace the steam turbines and factories of the early industrial revolution. This eventually caused us to be overshadowed by the English and even those pesky Belgians! They were so stubborn/convinced of wind power, that they modernized the mills with metal sheets instead of sails to increase productivity, while the Belgians were modernizing their industry... So I think it would be feasable to start the manufactories institution in the Netherlands, even though I acknowledge its not the same as the Derby mill. Otherwise some production and development bonuses could be given to the Dutch during the 16th century, maybe giving a HUGE buff, but also making it harder to embrace the actual manufactory/industrialization institutions??

Some lazy sourcing: (Okay, I wish I could find primary sources in English, though I am sure you guys are much more efficient in finding them than I am).
An article about its inventor mentions something about its significance in Dutch history.
(here another Dutch source about how the Dutch had such an efficient shipyard industry for both commercial and warships that many other European powers bought/rented these ships. Though it also acknowledges that Dutch ships were not built to last as long as for instance English ships (which made them cheaper and more easy to build)
(Dutch wiki from the "Zaanstreek" with some info about all the different kinds of mills and the history of it)
 
Oh, we're doing it again. We'll leave the New World with no Institutions, even in the Mesoandean empires.

I honestly do not like what I'm seeing here, but I also understand we know pratically nothing of this mechanic (seriously, why so many REDACTEDs). I just hope the best play for ROTW (for both New and Old worlds) isn't necessarily to get an European institution ASAP in your country.

Limited to one atm.

We could in theory add a game-rule that allows multiple "spawns". Maybe 1 per sub-continent ?

Nah just do it like Manufactories in EU4. Let them spawn anywhere that logically fits the criteria, without needing the spread.

I mean, take Confessionalism.

Confessionalism
This spawns in a town or city in Europe, which has a printing press, where the owner is Catholic, and the dominant religion is Catholic, and has a “Spiritualist” societal value. The historical location is Augsburg.

Catholic catholic catholic. Ok fair it's a catholic institution, it makes sense it spawns in Europe and you need contact with an Europ--

It is true that the rise of 'Confessionalism' was mostly felt in Christianity. It could also be argued, though, that other societies and religions also experimented important changes more or less at the same time; I'm thinking about the religious change in Persia from a Sunni-majority into a Shia-majority; all the religious processes that took place in India, including the born of Sikhism and the religious reforms of the different Mughal emperors; or the religious fights in East Asia, of which the religious situation of Japan at the final stage of Sengoku Jidai is probably the most important.

Oh so it DOES represent other religious processes? Cool, so let them spawn them too! Let Punjab get it if they get their first Sikh guru (or convert to Sikhism), give a free spawn to the Mughals if their Din-i Illahi manages to take off, make Shia Persia be MENA's focal point of Confessionalism spread, etc. If we can't have different Institutions for different regions/religions/cultures, then at least give us multiple spawn locations.

EDIT--I'm stupid and didn't check the later replies, oops.
I see your point, although 'Religious Reform' sounds very generic, and potentially more un-immersive. We'll continue reading your suggestions, in any case.

Would it be possible to have a localisation swap for Christian countries? Theological Reform for everyone, Confessionalism for Christians.
 
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This should be the default for some institutions. China invented the printing press (even though without movable type) independently from Europe.

the movable type was the thing though.
 
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only in certain aspects, considering mainly portuguese were already defeating powerfull african kingdoms and were about to absolutelly destroy coalitions of indians and other muslim states, from the ottomans to Malacca.
Kilwa was quite a weak state tbh, it was just one city with representatives in most of the other cities along the coast, sometimes that representative governed with great autonomy, but in the more powerful ones like Sofala they were more like ambassadors
 
the movable type was the thing though.
Movable type was created long before Gutenberg in China, and printing was a big thing already in China in 7-9th century. It was a steady development, which resulted in Southern Song having around 200~ printing locations. Bi Sheng used the first movable type (it was using clay forms), but Wang Zhen created a much simple wooden movable type.
Now, however, there is another method that is both more exact and more convenient. A compositor's forme is made of wood, strips of bamboo are used to mark the lines and a block is engraved with characters. The block is then cut into squares with a small fine saw till each character forms a separate piece. These separate characters are finished offwith a knife on all four sides, and compared and tested till they are exactly the same height and size. Then the types are placed in the columns [of the forme] and bamboo strips which have been prepared are pressed in between them. After the types have all been set in the forme, the spaces are filled in with wooden plugs, so that the type is perfectly firm and will not move. When the type is absolutely firm, the ink is smeared on and printing begins.
[1] Quote from Needham, Volume 5, Part 1, although I did not check it personally.
Process is really similar to Gutenber's, although you can not find the use of metal blocks in the description - this is a wooden block printing. However, metals were used in China printing. Movable type was still a big luxury, only used by Emperor's court and administration, due to need to produce great amount of characters (around 50,000 average) and low marginal profits of such a business.

In the Nong Shu, Wang wrote:
In more recent times [late 13th century], type has also been made of tin by casting. It is strung on an iron wire, and thus made fast in the columns of the form, in order to print books with it. But none of this type took ink readily, and it made untidy printing in most cases. For that reason they were not used long
[1]
Although unsuccessful in Wang's time, the bronze metal type of Hua Sui in the late 15th century would be used for centuries in China, up until the late 19th century.

I also want to note that Gutenberg's printing press was not used by China in the game timeframe (only started to use it in 1890's+), and Chinese found about importance of Guteberg only through translations of Thomas Carter's work. China's low book production and literacy problems were all caused by economic reasoning, because producing 100,000 wooden (or metal) blocks is really hard for private owned Business. Gutenberg's press was not spread in China due to it's uselessness in solving the problem and China's printing press technologies were used until 18th century until Western printing press became much useful and easier to use.

Overall, hardships in book production in China can be attributed to the price of owning the press and China's writing system. You can see in my [3] source the reasoning. Books were mostly produced by more primitive movable types, like wood block production, until European printing press in 18th century would overproduce Chinese by large margin [2]. Wood blocks were not as expensive and less durable. In posts before mine you can see other sources saying Chinese blocks could be used for 40 copies. It is because these blocks are not that durable and would break easily.

SCIENCE & CIVILISATION IN CHINA - Needham
Brokaw, Cynthia. "On the History of the Book in China"
The History of the Book in China J. S. EDGREN
 
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Hate to say it, but this is the first Tinto Talks that has outright disappointed me. It's not bad, but it needlessly retains many problems from EU4. Ages are still global mechanics meaning a New World or Asian country that knows nothing of the greek classics still gets arbitrarily told they're in the "Age of renaissance". And institutions, while I'm happy they seem to do more than just control tech speed, have the same conceptual problem as in EU4 where most of them seem to represent technologies or government policies which makes the criteria of what advances get elevated to a spreadable institution feel arbitrary and gamey. I ask again: Why is the Printing Press or Pike&Shot something that spreads on the map, but say the similarly impactful four-field system or gunpowder a regular technology that each country has to research individually?
ngl it would be really cool if all technology spread on the map but you could still pay to embrace it early and also invent it yourself depending on certain parameters. But if, say, all your neighbors developed the four-field system then after some years it would spread to you.
 
Not everywhere in the world there was a feudal system in 1337, and the 'Late Middle Ages' doesn't fit with the flavor we're setting for the different ages; that's why we thought of 'Age of Traditions', as it's a more common ground. But we're open to feedback, as usual.
Yet you have the reformation, renaissance, and then all the eurocentric institutions. If you saying that feudal age doesn't apply then why the other age names, why all the eurocentrism?
 
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