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Tinto Talks #24 - 7th of August 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

proximity_map.png

The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

proximity_kalmar.png

Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

map_of_harbors.png

The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

bristol_useful.png

Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


venetian_arsenal.png

This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


blockade_tt.png

This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

maritime_change.png

I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

blockade_capacity.png

This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

blockade_required.png

There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

venice_naval_range.png

Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

ships_builder.png

WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
 
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Will the Canal of Pharoahs/Necho’s Canal be a possible project Venice and Mamluks can undertake in the early game for early access to Red Sea?
Or will the possibility of a Canal be restricted to late game Suez Canal?
 
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Based on internal playtesting so far, would you say this iteration of naval mechanics achieves the right level of naval importance for the game yet, or is there still more to be done?
 
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A bit of feedback on those natural harbours around Belgium. Will probably do a separate post over the weekend :)

Shouldn't Calais be one, at least to make the English interested in it ? Drawn like this, seems like I'd choose my "final holdout" in Le Havre or even Brest, not Calais.
1723037107757.png


A bit north, in 1337, Brugge (which as per feedback includes Sluis) should definitely be a natural harbour. The "Sint-Niklaas" location seems like a strange choice, I wouldn't even have made it coastal
 
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very excellent tinto, it's about everything I imagined this to be..

.. except the natural harbour map. What counts as a "natural harbour" feels completely and utterly made up on no precise criteria at all, and it feels quite annoying tbf
 
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Do Rivers have separate tiles which subdivide them so you have to pay multiple times if you want to connect your territory in the Switzerland with your territories at the Rhine estuary in the Netherlands?

like seazones?
 
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I feel like I am going to be only ever building naval infrastructure in the 'best possible' spots now... or just say screw it and dump all the money into a 'every province a port' approach

Don't think that would be optimal. Looks like you want ports a some distance to each other to optimize how much proximity you get for your money.
 
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Will there anything in naval combat to simulate the Korean vs Japanese dynamic, where the Japanese are always trying to close in and board enemy ships while the Koreans are always trying to maintain range and pound the enemy from afar with cannons?

like different strategies in a naval battle?
 
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Also an important distinction. Galleys were very costly in terms of manpower. A galley needed not only a lot of rowers, but also often had lots of people on board because the way galley warfare worked around amphibious operations and boarding. It was actually a major bottleneck to building and operating galleys, which is why galley slavery proliferated so much in Mediterranean.

It's really important to represent this fact, on how galleys would require so many, soldiers, sailors and oarsmen as both its strength and weakness. It was also because of this reason why sail ships, which are much more efficient per sailor and don't require large crews of oarsmen or soldiers to board other ships since they fought at distance in age of sail. This was also why galleys ultimately hit a cap in size and guns, while sail ships ultimately reached truly staggering sizes with dozens of guns.

I would recommend galleys having 120+ sailors, with ability to ferry as much as 150 soldiers per to represent this fact. Which should definitely constrain any states not able to board so many men on ships and give advantage to those states that can compensate for this either with slaves (Ottomans, Barbary Corsairs, Spain and the co.) or with rigid conscription and training (Mainly Venice, but also Genoa and Florence at a level).

This dynamic could naturally represent how galley fleets become less and less feasible to build and maintain in age of sail, while also giving them an initial edge in boarding and besieging.

I really recommend Guilmartin's "Gunpowder and Galleys" as a source. Not only because it deals at length about galleys but also touches upon the relationship between navies, naval logistics, naval fortifications, maritime economy, manpower, artillery as well as issues with quality vs. quantity in naval warfare.
 
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Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


View attachment 1172611
This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

there are just negative modifiers when being blockaded? i somehow assumed that a blockade would actually blockade/stop movement of goods to that area. like for instance, why would food be affected in an area that is self sufficient on food production?

i just assumed a blockade would stop trade (so affect both import and export). it wouldve been really fun if it worked like that - so for instance sweden relies on goods from lubeck, which in turn is blockaded by prussia and therefor negatively affect the swedish economy.
 
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Is it possible to develop a Port so much that the single Location can exert majority control over the Market?
Or is it like EU4 where more locations mean more power?
 
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Love all about it. I personally think the Flensburg harbour should harvest greater potential. After the Knudsgilde and the Hansas influence dwindled Flensburg became one of the leading trade centers in the space dominated by Denmark and I think that potential should be represented somehow.
 
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Does Venice have a strait crossing modifier or will the Venetian navy be able to block armies from moving into the province somehow?

how we handle venice is not set yet.. @Pavía
 
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We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.
Will it be possible to force an army to take a sea route if a land route exists? I mean some kind of keyboard shortcut or army setting.

Edit: Yes... it turns out that in EU4, it's just Ctrl + right-click. It wasn't on the wiki.
 
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i never liked the flagship stuff
So no flagships as a separate mechanic. Good.

But will admirals be ghostly commanders, ever present on all ships, or will there be a designated "flagship" which when sunk in combat has a chance of killing the admiral?
(I think personally I'd prefer the ghostly commander.)
 
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This sounds great! But I think Gibraltar being a much better natural port than Seville, Cadiz or Valencia isn't right. And the coast of Galicia is known for its cliffs and as the roughest in the iberian peninsula so I'm not sure about the best natural ports for Spain being there
 
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Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

View attachment 1172608
The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

View attachment 1172609
Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?

How is suitability defined?

Is a major port in the 14th century that would silt up and become less usable more or less green than a deep water port, which is in use today?

Take Brugge and Amsterdam for example which in the modern day are unsuitable ports, which had to build entirely new ports further from the cities (Zeebrugge and IJmuiden) but were very successfull at their time, while in Groningen and East Frisia, we have Eemshaven and Wilhelmshaven, which are much more strategic and better placed, but wouldn't become in use until much later into the future.

What is the rough logic used?

Is an estuary important? Is access to deep sea important? What about natural processes such as silting making ports unviable into the future?
 
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how come?
Oh nothing game design wise per say, more my own personal unhealthy obsession of only building 'the best possible things' and for example in Eu4 only devving institutions in farmland/cots/cotton-cloth provinces...

And then I am assuming Late Game where I have a situation of 'I need more navy' I am dropping the 50 years worth of GDP on ports everywhere