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Tinto Talks #24 - 7th of August 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

proximity_map.png

The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

proximity_kalmar.png

Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

map_of_harbors.png

The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

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Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


venetian_arsenal.png

This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


blockade_tt.png

This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

maritime_change.png

I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

blockade_capacity.png

This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

blockade_required.png

There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

venice_naval_range.png

Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

ships_builder.png

WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
 
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This harbor suitability thing will make colonizing locations with a great natural harbor (Manhattan, Quebec, Trincomalee, San Francisco, Rio de Janeiro, Halifax, Baltimore, Sydney, Mobile, San Diego, etc.) much more enticing now
 
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Can we please see port suitability in every Tinto maps from here on out, so we can give feedback on which locations should have highrer/lower port suitability? Also, it seems location modifiers are back with "Wharf" being one of the first ones we see, are we getting a Tinto Talk about location modifers and how they work, or are they going to be a footnote in the comments?

Edit: We don't need to see port suitability for landlocked regions though, so we don't need to see the glorious ports of Mongolia.
 
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So the transition from boarding focused ships with large castles, to the gunnery focused ships we all know from the age of sailed won’t be modeled? Bit unfortunate, though I suppose “cannons” are just abstracted offense values which attack abstracted defense values.
 
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I notice that there are some names/locations missing in the picture about natural habors like in Castille or Andalusia. I know it´s probably a stupid question but in gonna ask anyway just in case: did some locations in Iberia and other regions got removed or something?
I think that it's because of the mapmode color darkening, because we haven't changed any location recently. We'll take that into account.
 
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We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.

We finally got rid of Oven Logic!!!

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Things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.
&
Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

Will these values be moddable? I.e. tempest seas requiring more time / presence, or are these values static? Can I give provinces a modifier to increase/decrease their maritime presence? Like having the Danube's Iron Gate require more infrastructure, or the silting of the Zwin?

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Why does Emden, entrance to the Ems not have any modifiers for harbourage? Can that river not be used for proximity calculations? Are there any special modifiers for places along rivers? Like Koln and Mainz on the Rhine, and Paris on the Seine? Will said places have any modifiers for trade/sailors/proximity? Is there river harbour infrastructure? Seeing as these places are the capital of markets.

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When it comes to ships:

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I don't see any special modifiers for open-sea vs inland sea. Will there be such a distinction in this game? Would be great to have that info available in the UI as opposed to the wiki.
 
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I hope Navy tradition will matter a lot and be hard to get and maintain, so a land locked country can't just conquer a port, built a 50 heavyship doomstack and be lord of the seas.
I challenge you to actually do this in EU4. Because this is massively hyperbolic and extremely... not happening. The sailor cost for 1 heavy ship alone is going to be difficult to get to quickly for a nation with a single port, then you want to do that 50 times, building each ship one at a time, then have the sailors to actually maintain that navy to become "lord of the seas"

This is literally never happening in any game of EU4.
 
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Early Iberian caravel made me twitch. I do hope Portugal has an Unique Ship this time around. Also all ships can transport troops, that's awesome.
Where can we see the amount of troops each ship can transport?
 
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Probably the best Tinto Talk so far!!!

Will there be (normal) river with 50% maritime presence?
Hope so since, that would allow special river buidling (like irrigation) for shipping with boats or raffts up and down the rivers. They would obviously increase maritme presence. But those buildings should be quite labour expansive, since it was popular death punishemnt by hard labour, to condemn prisoners on dragging ships/rafts up the river stream!

Can we please get a picture of what does it cost in goods to build and maintain a ship?

I imagine monthly goods for maintaining/operating a shipyard are seperate, from ship constraction, yes?

Fingers crossed AI will know how to handle ship transportation of armies! :p
 
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as we can see in examples, there are some unique buildings for each country. Will certain locations have buildings already there at the start? Such as the Venetian arsenal, which would have been built by now already?

That one will be there from day 1
 
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The "natural harbor" map seems like it's not perfect yet to me. I can mostly speak for Belgium. There are three important ports in Belgium I would say: Antwerp (has some green shade on the harbor map, I won't discuss if it's the correct shade), Bruges and Ghent. Bruges, despite its rich harbor history, is represented in black here? It was a very rich trading city, only later in the game would that fall away because the Zwin silted up:
Starting around 1500, the Zwin channel, (the Golden Inlet) which had given the city its prosperity, began silting up and the Golden Era ended. The city soon fell behind Antwerp as the economic flagship of the Low Countries. (source: wikipedia)
Even if it silted up, the location of Bruges in the game still contains the location of present-day Zeebrugge, which is still a major port in Europe (gas and cars). It seems to me Bruges should be a natural harbor to me?

Then there's Ghent. Ghent is not along the coast here, so the port cannot be represented. But it does link me to a different thing: for some reason Hulst is a natural harbor here of a very high degree. Even if Ghent's port is much larger than the one in Terneuzen.
De stad Terneuzen heette in de twaalfde eeuw Ter Nose en komt in 1325 voor het eerst in de archieven voor. Ook andere benamingen komen voor zoals in 1350 Ter Nessen. Het woord nesse (= nisse) betekent landtong. Terneuzen lag aan een vaart die in directe verbinding stond met de stad Gent. Rond 1375 bestond er een kapelletje voor zeevarenden, wat vermoedelijk behoorde tot de vergane parochie Vremdyc of Willemskerke, op eerdergenoemde landtong. In 1460 werd de haven van Terneuzen voor het eerst vermeld. (source: wikipedia)
What this Dutch text says, is that Terneuzen was a rather new city and had some economic activity because a waterway connected it to Ghent. Only in 1460 was the presence of a harbor mentioned. Which is again the sign that the location of Hulst was not a high degree natural harbor. Now, I did compare with Terneuzen, but the situation was long more complex, see this. The map shows an island that's now mainland Europe. It also helps understanding why Ghent had a busy port even in the Middle Ages. But do notice that this map of 1747 has no big ports. "Ter Neuze" (Terneuzen) and Axel are tiny settlements.

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As is, I fear your code will too often fail to explain why certain locations have no super large harbors (like Hulst/Terneuzen) and would assume other important harbor locations that are in the darkest shade are/have only been important because of money that got thrown at infrastructure (like Bruges). Honestly, I think it's too ambitious to automatically assign natural harbors. You have all those other paradox titles which have assigned natural harbors manually. That worked. And you have a lot of the information already. Make life a little easier and go with that method.
 
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Whats the problem with eu4?
IMO, it's probably the buggiest EU4 feature that I personally use. Building lots of ships at once doesn't evenly spread out, going from Europe to India sometimes my units just chill out around Egypt and take attrition, and when I auto transport multiple fleets it does weird behavior so I have to manually load them, tell them where to go THEN it acts normally.
Yes, I and others have reported it back in the 2010s. :D
 
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goods > all... as goods = taxes
I disagree with this. Being able to send letters is more important for military control, and trade.

If the ruler of a nation can send letters by post to his governors, then that is effective enough control, even though the taxation of regional areas was not centrally collected. e.g. the Roman Empire

If merchants can send letters by post then the throughput and safety of roads is just another cost of business. I'll explain that.

-Merchant sends a letter to some village for 5 tonnes of copper, a tonne of leather, and a tonne of wax. Normally, the village won't send a few hundred kilograms of copper because the cost of a trade caravan is too high in guards and provisions. Yet if the village is offered a very profitable deal, then the cost of a trade caravan can be absorbed.

I would prefer if a Postal System was an institution that a nation can establish to increase trade efficiency and increase control.
 
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It's not clear though, how do you increase maritime presence in coastal provinces?

More ships in the seazone
More naval related buildings in the port,.
 
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