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Tinto Talks #24 - 7th of August 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

proximity_map.png

The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

proximity_kalmar.png

Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

map_of_harbors.png

The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

bristol_useful.png

Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


venetian_arsenal.png

This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


blockade_tt.png

This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

maritime_change.png

I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

blockade_capacity.png

This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

blockade_required.png

There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

venice_naval_range.png

Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

ships_builder.png

WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
 
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How fast does ship travel 'feel'? I'm asking for two cases: first is chasing around an AI fleet of 2 ships around the mediterranean, and another is for the sake of exploration of sea tiles. Especially very early on with Portugal mapping the African west coast, does it happen at a slower tick rate/speed than EU4?

Even though I know what the world map looks like, it was still the most thrilling part of exploration to find new coasts and see what the local situation is like, but I feel it happened way too fast in EU4 between when you send the mission out and when you're done mapping the whole area, as the ships move incredibly quickly.
 
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Whats the problem with eu4?
Priorities. Like, when you needed to transport 20k troops in Indonesia and happened to have a transport fleet of 5 in the area, the game picks up your other transport fleet of 20 ships from Europe, sails it to Indonesia, loses some to attrition on the way etc.
Basically, it is a great feature until you have 1 dedicated transport fleet. It's godsent. But multiple different sized transport fleets, scatted all over the world and with armies, also scattered all over the world, the results are... well, chaotic :D
 
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Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

View attachment 1172606
The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

View attachment 1172607
Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

View attachment 1172608
The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

View attachment 1172609
Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


View attachment 1172610
This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


View attachment 1172611
This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

View attachment 1172612
I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

View attachment 1172613
This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

View attachment 1172614
There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

View attachment 1172615
Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

View attachment 1172616
WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
Why there is such a hard edge between yellow and red?

1723108250713.png
 
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Hulks also refer to an old class of cargo vessel. You'll notice that Wikipedia has two different definitions for hulk referring to ship type. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_(ship_type) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_(medieval_ship_type)
You're right! I did a cursory check for that before posting but clearly missed it. Medieval naval history is outside of my interest area. Ignore all the hulk comments!
 
La Rochelle and Rochefort, one of France's major age of sail harbours not so good?

There's so many harbours that shouldn't be here and so many that aren't, Dublin, half of greece a few on western italy like Ancona for eample :)
 
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you could do something like :

find all fleets that can do the transport in one trip (transport capacity ≥ army numbers), if no-one is present, calculate the time of which fleet can complete the transport faster between all fleets owned

else

calculate the time for the same thing but just between all the selected fleets, pick the one shorter time

or something like that, yeah
No because I'd rather take my fleet un emditeranean see do the travel twice than for my fleet in India to come back


Best might be on ctrl click to move using boat, display a tool tip with a list of fleets, and let user select which one to use, or something like that
 
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A little unrelated, but is it just me or do the Swedish and Finnish coasts look way blockier than the Estonian? It feels like they really could use a makeover...

Also, since scandinavia was one of the first regions mapped, does this mean that the map resolution was increased some point in the development cycle?

yeah, true
 
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How fast does ship travel 'feel'? I'm asking for two cases: first is chasing around an AI fleet of 2 ships around the mediterranean, and another is for the sake of exploration of sea tiles. Especially very early on with Portugal mapping the African west coast, does it happen at a slower tick rate/speed than EU4?

Even though I know what the world map looks like, it was still the most thrilling part of exploration to find new coasts and see what the local situation is like, but I feel it happened way too fast in EU4 between when you send the mission out and when you're done mapping the whole area, as the ships move incredibly quickly.
Exploration dont use ships as per the exploration TT

Yes chasing fleet around is annoying automation can help
 
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Great work, keep it up!

No objections at all, just a question related to subject:

1.Maybe I asked in an earlier TT, but, do increase in shipbuilding during bigger war, or after it, increase the demand, and therefore the price of lumber, tar and other goods requiered for building a ship?

building ships increase demand for materials yes
 
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army Civil Navy is giving me stellaris vibes lol.

Also can Venice build other Venetian Arsenals? In a similiar vein with Italy map feedback posted has there been any additional Venice map updates?

Also can you share anything about navigable rivers or just how rivers work in general? I really like playing in Middle East/India (Let’s go Timmy!!!) so feel like there’s a lot of potential
 
So, I’ve been thinking about how naval nations could get more love, especially in the context of the upcoming game (let's call it Project Caesar for now). We all know how Venice gets its cool Venetian Arsenal for shipbuilding, but what about Carthage?

Carthage has been dead for about 1480ish years at the start of the game.
 
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We do have mechanics for ship captures, and yes, ships more likely to sink if damaged on high seas is a good suggestion, especially when fleeing a battle.
@Johan yeah, I also think that fleeing should be generally more difficult to do with sail ships than oar ships and of course armies since well...you can't exactly run away when your masts are broken or there is no wind.
 
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Interesting DD. Is there mothballing for our ships?
 
We do have mechanics for ship captures, and yes, ships more likely to sink if damaged on high seas is a good suggestion, especially when fleeing a battle.

Careful not to go overboard with this. Most naval battles took place close to coast so high seas battles should be rare anyway, but even then after 1650s ship sink rate is low even in extremely decisive battles. For example in two decisive battles of Napoleonic wars, in Battle of Trafalgar and Battle of Nile, 1 and 2 ships were sunk respectively. Sinking rate for ships seems around 10% in age of sail.

Sinking rate is much higher with galleys, because they are very shallow draught and the cannons hit closer to waterline. Similarly, sinking ratio was higher even for carracks and galleons in 16th century when engagement at range was taken mostly because the artillery then used techniques such as hitting enemy ships close to waterline. Such techniques didn't make it to later eras because volume of cannon fire became more important, which could kill the crew and disable a ship but not necessarily sink it.

Capture rates definitely should be higher than what they were in Eu4 however, 25%+ capture rate seems realistic.
 
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The more I think about this system the better it gets when you copare it to other PDX games, the fact that there is no naval cap or that you can raise levies ships like in ck and that every ship can now work as transport is already a game changer, but most importantly the real thing here is that naval gameplay is actually tall now!! Fucking finally, not only you need a lot of money to create a fleet but also materials to build/maintain ship and people to work in the dock and as sailors. Blockade are also more vital now especially when considering how control works, having a capitol in coastal tile with good suitaibility is better for development but also more dangerous if it gets blockaded by enemy ship and if have a country centered aon multiple islands or different continents like the Ottomans you can destroy it by completely cut off Anatolia or the Balkans(depending on where they have the capital) just by totally blockading them ships and having their control going down over time.
Just amazing!
 
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