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Tinto Talks #24 - 7th of August 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

proximity_map.png

The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

proximity_kalmar.png

Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

map_of_harbors.png

The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

bristol_useful.png

Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


venetian_arsenal.png

This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


blockade_tt.png

This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

maritime_change.png

I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

blockade_capacity.png

This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

blockade_required.png

There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

venice_naval_range.png

Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

ships_builder.png

WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
 
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Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

View attachment 1172606
The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

View attachment 1172607
Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

View attachment 1172608
The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

View attachment 1172609
Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


View attachment 1172610
This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


View attachment 1172611
This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

View attachment 1172612
I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

View attachment 1172613
This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

View attachment 1172614
There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

View attachment 1172615
Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

View attachment 1172616
WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
Hello,
Thank you very much for sharing the develloppement of the game, this looks terrific.
As a player and naval enthousiast it is good to see that the naval aspect of the game has not been left out.
I would however emitt some suggestion for the naval warfare and importance of navies

1) ship designer and builder.
The four ship types are not enought to encourage different playstyle and create a real strategy other than stack heavy ships for max cannon to hull ratio.

If you create a shipbuilder you can give the player the choice of :
- draft size ( seaworthyness some shallow draft cannot cross ocean and have to stay near the coast but have limited weight and length, deep ports are necessary for deepdraft but thos heavy ships cannot approach every coast )
- number of deck ( limits the sailors and guns of your ship and its weight)
-cargo ( if the ship can transport goods / soldier)
-sails,: latin, roman, squared, etc.. ( determins the speed of the ship and the manoeuvre.
- armor, reduces the damage taken by the ship at the expense of cargo, speed and manoeuvre.
-cannon types determins attacks, accuracy and how many shots per hours. And armor piercing.
-cannon number : pretty explicit
- crew : how many combattant crew, how many non combattant crew, how many merchant on board, how many nobles or clergyman.

With this in mind you could creat a typical heavy ship. Lots of guns, deep draft, square sails and combat crews lots of guns and combattant crew. But the ship is very good at combat at the expense of speed. Your trade is at risk, so you build escort ships with latin sails, a bit of cargo for extra commerce power, rowers to add manoeuvrability and latin sails to flee against the wind fast if the combat turns sour. Then you need merchant ships. Large cargo space, but will you take the risk of arming them and slow them down or will you make this ship as fast as possible.
Finally you are a small nation and you cannot afford a full navy. You build a commerce/fighting ship hybrid. With cargo space and cannons, armored but with latin sails to escaped if necessary. They can transport your troops as well.

That is what a shipdesigner could add to the system of naval warfare.

2) naval combat.
I have mentioned above, amor, manoeuvre, armor piercing, speed, against the wind, crew, and ship size.

Well cannons vs ship hull is fun but unsufficient. I suggest a system like this.
(Manoeuvre + speed )× tactics = purcentage of dodging an attack.

Armor reduces the damage by the purcentage it indicate ( 90% armor reduce 90% non armor piercing damage received)
Armor piercing is damage that the armor cannot mitigate. It has to be kept low and is only enhenced by the admiral firing skills.

Speed calculate initiative And travel speed beetwen sea regions as well as evasion.

Accuracy is the purcentage of attack damage that goes throught the evasion of the enemy ship. Accuracy is upgraded throught naval tradition, experience of the ship and crew type.

3) commerce and goods.
With all of the above in mind, you should add the fact that trade goods takes cargo space in ships to be transported from a trade node to another. This means that commerce is in the players hands and that piracy is very very damaging. Fleets become neceassary to keep your valuable goods route safe.
You can either rely on other to protect your merchant ships and pay them ( genoa, venice, pisa, ragusa for exemple) or build your own fleet of protection. It is also possible that you do not have any ships and there fore you are dependant on a certain ship lane which foreign power control for you.

4) naval mission.
Protecting trade should be replaced with three following mission.

Transport trade good. You select a specific trade good to be imported into your market.

Export,
You select a specific trade good to export to a specific destination

Escort merchant ships.
This fleet will attack pirates and corsairs raiding commerce fleets.

Fleets should also be able to raid a coastal province regardless of ideas and religilon but the diplomatic cost should make you consider, it can start a war if the targets opinion of you goes very low. ( also can be used to provoke)
Engage in piracy ( brings you the trade good you loot)

and Blockade The new mechanics you mentioned seems very good.

5) war declaration

Naval war. A war where you can fight throught navies only to gain trade rights, trade goods To be forcebly mported/exported. ( opium wars, american war on japan etc)
Trade exclusivity on a port. Venice had
 
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May I suggest increasing kampens natural harbor score. During the start of the game it was still doing good being the main entrypoint from the sea into the rhine. You can add an event were the suitabiluty decreases around 1440ish as that is when the IJssel became bogged down. Also do you plan on adding something like the coastal battery to damage blockading ships because that was such a stupid thing in eu4 as a blockading navy would not be in canon range, if its only for navys that are actively besieging a coastal fort it makes sense but otherwise please don't.
 
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Will piracy be covered in one of the Tinto Talks? Will the difference in motivation of Pirates , Privateers and Corsairs be represented in the Project Caesar ? Pirates had no alliances with nations most of the time , Privateers did have alliances and were assets for the nation that sent them out for enemy nations and Corsairs were essencially Privateers but in some cases they had also religious motivations.

For example the Knights Hospitaller operated as Corsairs themselves and gave license to Maltese Corsairs , these letters of marque usually stated that you could only attack non Christian ships which in most cases were Ottoman Ships. Barbary Corsairs and Maltese Corsairs fought each other constantly and apart from having imperial ambitions the Ottoman Empire targeted Malta and tried to conquer it in the great siege of 1565 also because according to Suleiman the Magnificent the island was '' a nest of vipers''.
 
Hello,
Thank you very much for sharing the develloppement of the game, this looks terrific.
As a player and naval enthousiast it is good to see that the naval aspect of the game has not been left out.
I would however emitt some suggestion for the naval warfare and importance of navies

1) ship designer and builder.
The four ship types are not enought to encourage different playstyle and create a real strategy other than stack heavy ships for max cannon to hull ratio.

If you create a shipbuilder you can give the player the choice of :
- draft size ( seaworthyness some shallow draft cannot cross ocean and have to stay near the coast but have limited weight and length, deep ports are necessary for deepdraft but thos heavy ships cannot approach every coast )
- number of deck ( limits the sailors and guns of your ship and its weight)
-cargo ( if the ship can transport goods / soldier)
-sails,: latin, roman, squared, etc.. ( determins the speed of the ship and the manoeuvre.
- armor, reduces the damage taken by the ship at the expense of cargo, speed and manoeuvre.
-cannon types determins attacks, accuracy and how many shots per hours. And armor piercing.
-cannon number : pretty explicit
- crew : how many combattant crew, how many non combattant crew, how many merchant on board, how many nobles or clergyman.

With this in mind you could creat a typical heavy ship. Lots of guns, deep draft, square sails and combat crews lots of guns and combattant crew. But the ship is very good at combat at the expense of speed. Your trade is at risk, so you build escort ships with latin sails, a bit of cargo for extra commerce power, rowers to add manoeuvrability and latin sails to flee against the wind fast if the combat turns sour. Then you need merchant ships. Large cargo space, but will you take the risk of arming them and slow them down or will you make this ship as fast as possible.
Finally you are a small nation and you cannot afford a full navy. You build a commerce/fighting ship hybrid. With cargo space and cannons, armored but with latin sails to escaped if necessary. They can transport your troops as well.

That is what a shipdesigner could add to the system of naval warfare.

2) naval combat.
I have mentioned above, amor, manoeuvre, armor piercing, speed, against the wind, crew, and ship size.

Well cannons vs ship hull is fun but unsufficient. I suggest a system like this.
(Manoeuvre + speed )× tactics = purcentage of dodging an attack.

Armor reduces the damage by the purcentage it indicate ( 90% armor reduce 90% non armor piercing damage received)
Armor piercing is damage that the armor cannot mitigate. It has to be kept low and is only enhenced by the admiral firing skills.

Speed calculate initiative And travel speed beetwen sea regions as well as evasion.

Accuracy is the purcentage of attack damage that goes throught the evasion of the enemy ship. Accuracy is upgraded throught naval tradition, experience of the ship and crew type.

3) commerce and goods.
With all of the above in mind, you should add the fact that trade goods takes cargo space in ships to be transported from a trade node to another. This means that commerce is in the players hands and that piracy is very very damaging. Fleets become neceassary to keep your valuable goods route safe.
You can either rely on other to protect your merchant ships and pay them ( genoa, venice, pisa, ragusa for exemple) or build your own fleet of protection. It is also possible that you do not have any ships and there fore you are dependant on a certain ship lane which foreign power control for you.

4) naval mission.
Protecting trade should be replaced with three following mission.

Transport trade good. You select a specific trade good to be imported into your market.

Export,
You select a specific trade good to export to a specific destination

Escort merchant ships.
This fleet will attack pirates and corsairs raiding commerce fleets.

Fleets should also be able to raid a coastal province regardless of ideas and religilon but the diplomatic cost should make you consider, it can start a war if the targets opinion of you goes very low. ( also can be used to provoke)
Engage in piracy ( brings you the trade good you loot)

and Blockade The new mechanics you mentioned seems very good.

5) war declaration

Naval war. A war where you can fight throught navies only to gain trade rights, trade goods To be forcebly mported/exported. ( opium wars, american war on japan etc)
Trade exclusivity on a port. Venice had
While a ship designer would make me happy and expanding the flagship designer into full ship designer would be perfect i don't think it is all that important and the one you suggested and its associated combat system has some flaws.
1) Armour wasn't really a thing at this point and would not be up until the Victorian era, there were different types of construction methods with some benefits in certain areas and drawbacks in others and as advances in this area happened at most once a century with the new method usually (not always) being an improvement in almost every away to the previous method calling it armour is weird
2) Number of decks also isn't really a thing until the post 30 years war proper age of sail, calling it hull type would be better as it would include other design choices such as for and aft castles.
3) Option for cannon types also doesn't make that much sense since it was common for a single ship to carry multiple types and calibers of cannons. This option would also be hard to implement since before the proper age of sail era there were to many different types of cannons that often overlap on capabilities and going even further back most cannons were one-off experimental weapons that are hard to properly categorize.
4) Crew should not be determined by the player. at best the player should have a say in the size of the marine contingent.

Combat system proposed doesn't seem to take into account boarding actions, also considering the range at which naval engagements took place up until the Spanish-American war having accuracy and chance of dodging an attack is weird.
 
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Whats the problem with eu4?
The way it chooses fleets with more than one valid transport fleet is poor. In my mind, ideally it should find the fastest way to move the troops from A to B taking into account the time it takes for the ship to get there. The problem results in me simplifying my empire to one transport fleet just to avoid ransom circumnavigations by the auto transport AI.

For instance if I as the Dutch want to move 5k units from Calais to Dover, and I have 2 cogs set to transport in the English Channel, the automatic transport will not select them, and instead prefer a transport fleet of size 5 or more in America, because it tries to avoid multiple trips, even if the time those multiple trips would take is less than the travel time of the fleet to get to the first transport location.

Maybe it would be nice if there was a function to lock transport fleets to specific regions, similar to missions like Hunt Enemy Fleets. A general "Transport" mission, where you select one or more large maritime regions where ships are responsible for any transport requests originating from that area. If no transport fleets are doing missions in the originating area it could check the destination for any fleets before giving up. This would allow for the player to be sure that their Indian Ocean fleet will stay there, and not transport an army from Congo to Amsterdam. When no transport mission is requested by armies it might either sit in port or try and supply armies.

As a EU4 transport positive, I love the control click to automatically naval transport. It makes it easy to move troops from Italy to Tunis with boats even when a land route exists.
 
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I really wonder how this will be balanced. Let's assume maritime presence actually matters. What if you are Playing Austria and you just get Istria coastline, how much will the blockade effect you?

What if you are coastal playing OPM like Ragusa? Are you just going to be dead because 100% of your country will be blockaded? Will you be forced to "cheese" it and focus on conquering continental provinces first so blockade won't matter much?

What if you have more coast like Poland but can't nearly match the navy of your neighbors?
 
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Just to further illustrate distance and so you can infer how much it might increase as you increase your Naval Range. Black and red mean the same here: nowt
What if the gradiant continued but it was just a fat line showing the "border". kinda how borders work. or would that be weird out in the middle of the ocean.
 
Careful not to go overboard with this. Most naval battles took place close to coast so high seas battles should be rare anyway, but even then after 1650s ship sink rate is low even in extremely decisive battles. For example in two decisive battles of Napoleonic wars, in Battle of Trafalgar and Battle of Nile, 1 and 2 ships were sunk respectively. Sinking rate for ships seems around 10% in age of sail.

Sinking rate is much higher with galleys, because they are very shallow draught and the cannons hit closer to waterline. Similarly, sinking ratio was higher even for carracks and galleons in 16th century when engagement at range was taken mostly because the artillery then used techniques such as hitting enemy ships close to waterline. Such techniques didn't make it to later eras because volume of cannon fire became more important, which could kill the crew and disable a ship but not necessarily sink it.

Capture rates definitely should be higher than what they were in Eu4 however, 25%+ capture rate seems realistic.
Trafalgar effectively destroyed 13 out of 33 Franco-Spanish ships of the line. I don't really see the point in EU5 letting us capture ships at such low strength that a day or two of attrition will sink them. Are we even getting storms? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_battle_at_the_Battle_of_Trafalgar#Franco-Spanish_fleet
 
Four categories of ships, but are there choices in those categories? Can I build 1st, 2nd and 3rd rates? Can I razee my old 3rd rate to a 4th rate frigate? Can I choose to build 64's instead of 74/80's and get a smaller penalty or a small bonus in inland seas compared to the larger ships?
 
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Just to further illustrate distance and so you can infer how much it might increase as you increase your Naval Range. Black and red mean the same here: nowt
I think leaving all black is better. Previous games (and this) ofen use red to indicated the lowest if something. Low development, low control. And this gradient from red to black only adds to that false illusion of decreasing Naval Range. Showing all unavailable waters with black color would fix this I think
 
Trafalgar effectively destroyed 13 out of 33 Franco-Spanish ships of the line. I don't really see the point in EU5 letting us capture ships at such low strength that a day or two of attrition will sink them. Are we even getting storms? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_battle_at_the_Battle_of_Trafalgar#Franco-Spanish_fleet


It depends on what you are trying to represent with destroyed ships. If it isn't just sunk but effectively disabled, it depends on which ones may be worthwhile to capture to repair, others to scuttle and yet others to just let wreck in sea or at port. For one Trafalgar was a particularly disastrous battle and second it was during an ongoing war.

When I gave the 10% ratio, I didn't give only sunk in battle (As in case of Trafalgar, that would basically be 4% of the fleet) but any ship that is rendered useless. Rest can instead be considered in game terms, such as how long it would take to repair a ship and how much it would cost? Of course some ships that can technically be repaired aren't always worth to repair, particularly during war situations.

I think a good way to represent this is that instead of sinking entire fleets as it happens in EU4, to just make it so that repairing a ship is exponentially costlier, which at one point it is better to just detach and scuttle ships (if there can be salvage from it) or leave them (effectively letting them wreck).

I actually think galleys should sink a lot more than such ships of the line too. I hope for more asymmetry in general which is why I also requested galleys can't blockade, because they can't as they need to beach and resupply frequently. That can also more organically represent why sailships overtook galleys overtime, which is that they could get bigger, carry more cannons, be more resistant to sinking, maintain blockades and do all that more efficiently in terms of amount of sailors.
 
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