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Tinto Talks #24 - 7th of August 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

proximity_map.png

The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

proximity_kalmar.png

Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

map_of_harbors.png

The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

bristol_useful.png

Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


venetian_arsenal.png

This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


blockade_tt.png

This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

maritime_change.png

I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

blockade_capacity.png

This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

blockade_required.png

There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

venice_naval_range.png

Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

ships_builder.png

WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
 
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So ships will always take some attrition, even if not outside naval range. What measures have been taken to get the AI to not shoot itself in the foot with these mechanics? I'm unsure about EU4, but I know that in EU3 the AI was so unable to handle it that naval attrition was just disabled for them.
 
I can't help but feel disappointed in the lack of depth shown in the combat mechanics - naval and infantry. So much care has clearly been put into devs in the other aspects of the game, but it feels like these have just been copy pasted from EU4 with basically no alteration or attempts to improve.
 
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Why does Amersfoort have a higher natural harbor score than Hoorn, considering that Hoorn and nearby Enkhuizen were both significant VOC Cities housing one of the 6 chambers each. Furthermore Den Helder is also situated in Hoorn and became a very important harbor for the Dutch navy. In contrast, Amersfoort lacks notable harbors, with Huizen being the only coastal settlement of significance, primarily known as a fishing village, I'd suggest switching the scores and maybe even improving Hoorn a bit.
 
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Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

This historically isn't the case, blockades rely on positioning, the idea of being able to set up a blockade was typically easier to do with galleys especially during the earlier points of the campaign and its not until about 1650 where you start to see some parity between large ships and their capacity to blockade, even if they are more common due to their general ability to sail better in rougher water.

Here's an example of the use of galleys during the 1680s being used as hugely effective blockade roles and how they worked in formation

1723222699808.jpeg


What makes larger ships more effective is the idea of setting up floating gun platforms, here is a contemporary picture of the bombardment of Tunis in 1785, where the majority of the bombardment and blockade efficiency was undertaken by the small craft shown much closer to the city, these were floating platforms built from barrels and planks armed with around 2-4 guns each, rowed within range, these duties would traditionally be undertaken by galleys when available.

1723221780474.jpeg


Here is one from the Seige of Gibraltar showing protected purpose built heavier gunboats being used in Gibraltar in 1783, as gunboats were used both defencive and offensively, this example shows them being used as a mix of both these roles protecting the rock.

1723222216309.jpeg
 
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Hey Johan know im real late, but few questions about how naval combat will work.

1. You said naval combat work like land, does that mean ship have an initiative value too? (Perhaps representing speed) so you need light ships to engage first, while you heavies maneuver into combat.
2. Does naval combat always happen, when the enemies are in the same naval tile? Or is there a chance that navies “find” each other?
3. As ships get damaged do you model they might lose cannons and crew making them more inefficient at certain things as the battle goes on?
4. Is there a combat width? Something similar to frontage on land? If so is it based on hull size or an independent value?
 
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So now the question is: Would a Venetian ship in 1337 really be unable to reach Valencia without major ship damage?

No they constantly traded with Flanders, there was even specific galley designs to go to flanders during this period, I kind of don't disagree with the concept of how far ships can go for game balance being a little more restricted than reality though
 
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On that note, I noticed Nice is a better port than Genoa, is there a particular reason for that? Genoa was historically a more significant port and is one of the largest industrial ports on the Mediterranean today and Nice is just a collection of Marinas, so it seems backwards.
I have to agree with you on this matter.
Genoa had one of the best locations for a port, since it was protected from all directions but the south by hills and a valley that reached the po' valley directly.
It also had two stone docks extending from the sides of the bay.
I would also suggest to buff la spezia bay (in the location of sarzana)
La spezia wasn't that important of a city in the middle ages but it came to be one of Italy's most important military ports.
As important as Taranto.
✌ Thanks
 
No they constantly traded with Flanders, there was even specific galley designs to go to flanders during this period, I kind of don't disagree with the concept of how far ships can go for game balance being a little more restricted than reality though
Were those non-stop voyages, though?
 
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Were those non-stop voyages, though?

They could be, there wasn't really much consistency as the vast majority of the voyages were private commissions, a lot of the time they stopped once or twice along the way but it wasn't necessary. If I remember right without sifting through my books it usually took anywhere between about 30-40 days in fair weather could be about 60 in poor weather.

Stopping mostly depended on what they had to trade, the weight of the goods and what affect they had on water supplies, it wasn't something they generally did too much in the sense that most the ships were often rented from the government, so voyages needed to make a profit in each port for the time they were spending there.

There were also round (similar to light ships?) ships that made the voyage that were privately constructed alongside the galleys.

I think the reality of what they are trying to model for with the in game attrition is mostly accountable to hull damage which would mostly be caused in the bay of biscay or light storms
 
@Pavía
Not sure how Amsterdam's Harbor stats are calculated in this particular map... but Amsterdam should NOT be a great natural harbor! The waters of "Het IJ" and the "Zuiderzee" were silting quite heavily, especially from the second half of the 17th century and onwards. Eventually, the increasingly larger ships couldn't reach the harbor anymore so they used massive flotation devices called 'camels' to lift the heavy ships so they would not end up in the shallow sands. Otherwise the ships loads would be redistributed in other, more accesible ports in the North of Holland before being brought to Amsterdam.
This problem would persist despite efforts to deepen the waters until the canals were dug out in the 19th century... But yeah of course Amsterdam was already so massively important by 1650 that it continued to be this large center of trade. But NOT because it had a convenient location, it was also quite a bit of luck from having all those refugees coming from Antwerp (After the Spanish took it in 1585), the French Hugenots and the Iberian Jews. All these merchants fleeing to Amsterdam is what made the city so wealthy and important. so in most alternative timelines, Amsterdam would probably just be a tiny city by 1650....

So saying Amsterdam has a large 'natural harbor' modifier is actually forcing a not so plausible historical outcome onto the game. If you really want Amsterdam to be big, events should be the way (giving them massive development boosts simulating the influx of these wealthy protestant/jewish refugees)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_camel


@Johan
The Scheldt, the estuary leading to the Antwerpen port, was blockaded by the Dutch fleet for quite some time after the Spanish took it (in 1585), even when the Austrians took over the southern Netherlands from spain, the blockade remained, basically preventing Antwerpen from becoming an important port again. This even led to the quite (in)famous "Kettle war" which ended without any casualties (besides, of course, that one particular kettle, which, let's be fair, had it coming!).

Will there be a certain mechanic to create such a 'blockade' even in technical peace time? In real time, the peace of Westphalia (the peace of Münster in the Netherlands) of 1648 would make a settlement of the closement of the Scheldt. So perhaps a similar mechanic could be implemented in PC? Like preventing a nation to utilize a port for a certain time?
 
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Why is Brindisi a black harbour tile, it is considered one of the safest natural harbours in the meditation, and has been use as such since the Romans, that is why the crusades would leave from there, and in Italian, a cheers is called Brindisi
 
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Hope you're sill reading this @Johan , if not lets hope I remember to write this on the next TT.

We now know that at least some eu4 monuments are going to be unique buildings but what about the ones that haven't been build yet? It whould be a shame to not have them at all.

I think it'd be cool to have IR monument system (but have palaces, towers, cathedrals, etc not just a monument) only with extra steps, the big idea is that your laws and estates decide which special thing you get to add to the monument. For example if L'état is you, you get to add a golden roof to a palace project like that one guy you may know.

This whould make it so you get buffs/debuffs it makes sense you'd get while not putting a restriction to a location but on your playstyle instead. Also make a limit to how many golden roofs or whatevers you can build, I want a golden roof on my cathedral tho so don't make it palace only pls.
 
Amazing TT. One suggestion : make attrition really important on high seas before a country discovers that fruits prevent scurvy. I'd love to see game mechanic of loading certain tons of goods on fleet and having various bonuses (loading fruits reduce attrition, loading rhum increases fleet morale, loading cloth increases chances of diplo event happening when mapping new areas etc)

I hope colonies will be hard to develop and that colonial nations will have mostly just small outpost on the way to Asia, but with a big trade power. I don't like the way Eu4 is with colonial nations having all african coasts by 1600 as it wasn't that easy to do in history and happened later.
 
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I can't help but feel disappointed in the lack of depth shown in the combat mechanics - naval and infantry. So much care has clearly been put into devs in the other aspects of the game, but it feels like these have just been copy pasted from EU4 with basically no alteration or attempts to improve.
Do you have a proposal, how should it be?
 
I can't help but feel disappointed in the lack of depth shown in the combat mechanics - naval and infantry. So much care has clearly been put into devs in the other aspects of the game, but it feels like these have just been copy pasted from EU4 with basically no alteration or attempts to improve.

The attempts by EUx to simulate the grand-strategy maritime aspect is dull. The significance of naval strategy extends well into the present day. In 1340s, the Spaniards were among the first to place cannons on some of their galleys, though they largely relied on archers and crossbowmen. Even into the 15th century, most galleys were equipped with bow rams. By the 16th century, however, bow rams were largely discarded in favor of heavy, forward-facing cannons, which were transitioning from stone shot to metal shot.

Throughout history, heavy merchant galleys were often quickly converted into combat galleys. Cannons were extremely expensive, so maintaining a fleet of heavy merchant galleys made economic and logistical sense due to their dual propose. Dedicated war galleys didn't start until the early 1500s.

Cannon broadsides did not become a norm until the 17th century. And until the early 17th century, the predominate naval strategy was damaging and boarding enemy ships.

You wouldn't learn much about this from playing EUx games. EU4 naval combat attempts to simulate ships-of-the-line battles, but this type of naval warfare didn’t become the standard strategy until the 17th century.

Here's to hoping for improvements in PC.
 
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@Johan This just came to me answering a question in the current Saturday Building thread, but what about the ship maintenance? Will ships use 1 sailor per month as upkeep like land regiments do, and kill pops only when you lose ships or suffer damage and need to reinforce, or will they use their whole crew as monthly maintenance cost?