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Tinto Talks #24 - 7th of August 2024

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we spill the secrets about our entirely super secret, nobody will ever guess its name, game, which we refer to as Project Caesar.

Today we will delve into a lot of naval related aspects, when we talk about everything from Maritime Presence to Naval Combat.

Importance of Maritime Presence
First of all, we need to get back to the importance of maritime presence and naval capacity in Project Caesar. Before you can get advanced road networks through your country, your proximity propagation is much faster through places where you have maritime presence. Any seazone where you have no maritime presence OR a location without any road network costs about 40 ‘proximity’ to traverse through, which basically means you can not propagate any control more than 3 locations away. Of course, there are things that impact your proximity costs per location, like topography, vegetation, development and societal values as well.

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The heartland has some access, but the coasts are the most important to us..

For a coastal seazone, if you have 100% maritime presence, the base cost is 5 per location. If you have less than 100% maritime presence it will scale the price accordingly. So at 33% maritime presence, and you have no other modifiers, it would cost 0.33*5 + 0.67*40, i.e. about 28.45.

Lakes and Major Rivers are always considered to be 100% maritime presence sea zones for proximity calculations and market access calculations.

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Why is the seazone outside Stockholm called 'Trälhavet'?

As you can see here, tracing the proximity out from Kalmar to the seazone of Kalmar Sund is a bit costly, as going from land to sea through a port has a higher base cost. This is severely reduced by the infrastructure and development you have built up in that location, as well as the natural harbor attributes that location has.

Natural Harbors
This is something new for this game that we have not done before. With so many locations, and such granularity, and mechanics emphasizing a deeper simulation, we had to start treating places differently, as there is a reason why certain places on the map are better suited as ports than others. This also explains why certain locations grew to be important places in history over others.

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The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..

Of course, you can improve the harbor suitability of a location by building certain infrastructure, so even if the location you want to build up lacks the natural benefits, it can still be built up, even if it is more costly to do so as well.

The Harbor Suitability of a location has a significant impact on the trade and proximity calculations, and also impacts how quickly armies can be loaded or unloaded from the location.

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Bristol has its uses. The main question though, Rovers or City?


Shipbuilding
One of the disadvantages of playing a naval nation, in other games we’ve made, was the simple fact that unless you had a large coastline you could not compete, no matter how good the coastal locations you had were. One of the reasons was the simple fact that you could only build a ship at a time, and if you wanted to recruit a regiment, you couldn’t.

In Project Caesar this has changed, first of all, there are three different construction queues in a location. First there is the civil one for buildings, RGO’s, and all other non-military oriented things you can do in a location. Secondly we have the army based queue, and finally, we have the naval based queue, so you can recruit regiments at the same time that you build ships in a location.

We also added the concept of parallel ship building in a location, where buildings can unlock additional shipbuilding slots in a location, where at the end of the game you can build close to twenty ships at the same time in the same shipyard, with all the related advances and other stuff unlocked.


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This is a unique building that Venice has in its capital that increases the parallel capacity of shipbuilding by 4.


Blockades
One of the most powerful abilities that you can do during a war is blockading another nation's coast. The immediate impact is a reduction of food production, maximum control and making trades being more costly and likely to reroute. There is also the fact that development growth is severely slowed, the decline of prosperity and a dramatic reduction of your maritime presence.

As some say, an image tells you more than 1,000 words, we’ll use a few screenshots of tooltips related to blockades to make it a bit more clear.


blockade_tt.png

This can’t be all bad right?

Even with only a single port fully blockaded, the maritime presence in the seazone is severely impacted, and will take many months to recover, unless you got coastal forts or navies patrolling it for a long time after a war.

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I do love the adjective for Holland..

Not all ships are great at blockading, as you most likely want to have Heavy Ships and/or Light Ships to do the blockading.

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This type of hulk doesn’t smash…

Not all locations are equal, and different populations, infrastructure and development increases how much ships are required to blockade a location.

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There are about 32,000 people living in this nice rural settlement..

Ships Repairing
Every month that a fleet is in a seazone that is not adjacent to a friendly port they will start taking attrition. This attrition is increased dramatically if the fleet is outside the naval range. This attrition creates a chance for ships to be damaged. While usually you can only repair a ship in a port, there are advances in some ages that allows you to repair your ships in coastal sea zones, where at the Age of Revolutions you can repair a ship up to 50% efficiency without going back to a port.

Naval Range is calculated from every core port that you own, or is owned by one of your subjects, or owned by someone you have negotiated fleet basing rights with.

venice_naval_range.png

Can we control the entire mediterranean sea as Venice?

Transporting Troops
Ships in Project Caesar all have the capacity to transport regiments. The transport capacity of a ship is not measured in regiments but in the amount of men it can carry. Usually the transport ships are far better at carrying regiments, but other types of ships can carry some as well.

We also have automated transportation, similar to eu4, to make moving armies around the world less painful.

Combat
In a naval battle there is no separate bombardment phase, as most ships have guns, and they tend to want to use them constantly. Otherwise, it works similar to land combat, in that you have different sections, but the individual ships you have will fire upon each other.

But while it comes to the actual combat algorithm, ships work a bit differently, as there is no combat power or amount of soldiers fíghting to consider, but instead ships have an amount of cannons and hull size. Cannons are the offensive value, and hull size the defensive.

Types of Ships
There are four different categories of ships, Heavy Ships, Light Ships, Galleys and Transports. In each category there are at least one ship in each age that can be researched, but there are also many unique ships that can be built. There is no real restriction on what roles different ships can perform, but a Transport is not the best at blockading, and a Light Ship may not be ideal for transporting a lot of soldiers.

Each type of ship differs on how many trained sailors they need for their crew, how many cannons they can have, and more.

You can also raise ships as levies from your population, but those are usually best suited to transport armies shorter distances, and should not be relied upon in a sea battle.

ships_builder.png

WiP UI, but here is a unique galley for Aragon... 2 more guns, 1 more hull, but need 30 more sailors. And there’s also an Early Iberian Caravel, which all the Iberian countries may build.

Stay tuned, as next week we will talk about how colonization works.
 
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Will your pops or merchants make their own ships that navigate on the sea if they have construction capacity or is that abstracted?

its abstracted into "maritime is a very big impact on their progress"
 
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How do ships propagate trade and influence? Are they assigned missions or is just existing enough?

your warfleets don't do trade
 
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How does combat between ships without cannons work? The comment in this TT about how ships have no number of men to worry about during combat doesn't make sense for galley warfare, where naval battles typically consisted of hand-to-hand combat in boarding actions.
 
How does combat between ships without cannons work? The comment in this TT about how ships have no number of men to worry about during combat doesn't make sense for galley warfare, where naval battles typically consisted of hand-to-hand combat in boarding actions.
Exactly like battles with cannons, given what's been said.
 
Don't buy a new gaming PC at this point in time both Intel and AMD experience issues with their latest CPU's, new graphic cards are to be announced/released soon. And since this is an unannounced game, there are no specs and even then with many games nowadays it is best to wait untill released.
Thanks for the tip brother, I'll hold off on the purchase for a while
 
I have to say, the naval combat mechanics here are disappointing. Are we really going to have ships fighting each other with cannons in the 1300s? I feel like effort ought to be made to represent galley warfare.
 
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@Johan

How many levels of natural suitability are there? Are there any reference points for these levels?

I have attempted to define the concept of natural suitability here. However, in order to assess whether a specific location has good or poor natural suitability for a harbor, a scale with clearly defined levels is required. This scale needs to be established first so that locations can be categorized accordingly. Each stage could be illustrated with examples or historical reference points to make the classification more understandable. That would help to make suggestions.
 
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Natural harbor suitability

Definition


Natural harbor suitability refers to the geographical and geological characteristics that make a coastal location ideal for establishing and operating a harbor, without the need for human intervention. These factors determine how well-suited a place is to safely accommodate ships, provide services, and facilitate trade, focusing solely on the natural environment.


Criterions

The key factors include:

1. Water Depth

  • Adequate water depth is critical for allowing large ships to dock safely. While ships in the age of sail had shallower drafts than modern vessels, natural harbors still needed sufficient depth to accommodate larger merchant ships or warships without requiring them to anchor far from shore. From the medieval period to 1815, ship drafts generally ranged from 1.5 to 3 meters for small vessels like cogs, caravels, and galleys; 3 to 4.5 meters for medium ships such as galleons and frigates; and 4.5 to 7 meters for large ships, including ships of the line and large merchant vessels.
  • Harbors that maintain their depth naturally without requiring constant dredging are more efficient and sustainable.
  • Silting: The buildup of sediment could reduce water depth. Harbors with natural water flow that prevented excessive silting were better suited for long-term use.

2. Currents and Water Flow

  • Calm waters are essential for easier maneuvering and docking of ships, especially for sail-powered vessels, which were less maneuverable than modern ships.
  • Harbors naturally protected from strong currents, tidal flows, or waves are preferred, as these forces can make navigation challenging.
  • Moderate natural water flow helps prevent sediment accumulation (silting) and maintains consistent depth.

3. Protection from Natural Forces

  • Sheltered Bays: A bay that cuts into the landmass offers natural protection from waves and storms, often providing calm, wind-shielded waters ideal for safe anchorage.
  • Harbors located in natural bays, fjords, or behind land barriers are shielded from strong winds and rough seas, offering reliable shelter during storms.
  • Wind patterns and local climates play a significant role in determining how well-protected a harbor is from natural forces.

4. Favorable Coastal Features

  • Gently Sloping Shores: A gradually sloping coast is ideal for harbor construction, making it easier to build docks and allowing for more space for infrastructure, such as warehouses or shipyards.
  • Stable Shorelines: Rocky or sandy shores that are stable and resistant to erosion provide a strong foundation for harbor facilities. These shores support the construction of docks, cranes, and other port structures over time.
  • Natural Landforms: Features such as headlands or peninsulas can act as natural barriers against strong waves, creating a protective shield for the harbor and offering additional safety for ships.

5. Space for Infrastructure

  • Sufficient flat and stable land around the harbor was necessary for building basic infrastructure like shipyards, warehouses, and repair facilities.
  • Naturally occurring open spaces near the coast allowed for essential construction, ensuring there was enough room for harbor operations without major modifications to the landscape.

Levels

It is not confirmed but I assume 5 levels.
LevelDescription of the LevelExamples
0. UnsuitableThe location does not meet any essential criteria for safe ship operations or infrastructure development without extensive artificial measures, such as large-scale construction, coastline reinforcement, or major dam interventions.Norderney, Germany – This island in the North Sea is unsuitable for a natural harbor due to shallow waters and strong tidal currents, making navigation difficult. Constant reinforcement of the coastline and damming efforts were required, even in the past. Venice, Italy – The lagoon of Venice, famous for its canals, has naturally shallow waters. By the Middle Ages, extensive human effort was needed to maintain navigable routes for trade. Without constant dredging and reinforcement, the harbor would have been impractical. Lisbon, Portugal (before the 1755 earthquake) – The natural geography of the Tagus River mouth had significant sediment buildup. Despite Lisbon's prime location, constant intervention was required to maintain water depth for large vessels. The 1755 earthquake drastically altered the landscape, but before then, Lisbon was often at risk of becoming unusable due to silting.
1. Limited suitabilityThe location has several weaknesses, such as insufficient depth, strong currents, or unstable coastlines, requiring extensive human measures to keep the harbor operational.Rotterdam, Netherlands – Historically, Rotterdam's harbor was built along shallow rivers and required frequent deepening and artificial canals to accommodate trade routes. Its suitability improved over time, but in the Middle Ages, it required constant maintenance. Le Havre, France – Founded in the 16th century as an artificial port to replace the silting Seine estuary. Le Havre relied on extensive dredging and construction to remain viable, with continued interventions throughout its history. Cadiz, Spain – An important port since antiquity, but due to erosion and frequent shifting sands, Cadiz required constant harbor improvement works. This was a challenge during the period from the Middle Ages to 1815, as natural erosion threatened harbor viability.
2. SuitableThe location meets some essential criteria, but regular interventions are necessary to maintain suitability, such as periodic dredging or the construction of breakwaters.Hamburg, Germany – Hamburg's location along the Elbe River made it a crucial trade hub since the Middle Ages, but the river's constant sediment deposition necessitated regular dredging to maintain adequate depth for ships. Despite these issues, Hamburg remained one of Europe’s busiest ports. Alexandria, Egypt – A major port since the Hellenistic period, Alexandria remained a key trade city into the Middle Ages. However, its harbor occasionally silted up and needed frequent intervention to keep the waterways clear and usable. Gdańsk, Poland – This Baltic port was central to Hanseatic League trade. However, the river Motława that flows through the city required regular attention to avoid sedimentation and maintain the harbor's depth.
3. Very suitableMost criteria are met, but there may be slight disadvantages, such as water depth or protection from storms, requiring minimal human intervention.Bristol, England – The Avon River provided Bristol with a natural deep-water harbor, which became vital for trade in the Middle Ages. However, periodic flooding and the river’s tidal nature posed challenges, though these were minor compared to its advantages. Lübeck, Germany – As a central port of the Hanseatic League, Lübeck benefited from its position in the sheltered Lübeck Bay. Though occasional coastal erosion required management, the port was mostly protected and suitable for the significant trade of the region. Genoa, Italy – As one of the leading maritime republics, Genoa’s harbor was well-protected from Mediterranean storms by natural landforms. Minor sedimentation from nearby rivers needed occasional maintenance, but the port's natural depth and protection made it one of the premier trading hubs in the Middle Ages.
4. IdealThe location has all the optimal natural characteristics: sufficient depth for large ships, protection from waves and storms, calm water currents, stable coastline, and plenty of space for infrastructure. No human interventions are necessary.Sydney Harbour, Australia – Known for its deep and naturally sheltered waters, Sydney Harbour provides perfect conditions for ship anchorage without any need for human modification. Even by historical standards, it would have been an ideal natural harbor. Rio de Janeiro, Brazil – Naturally deep, with protection from mountainous landforms such as Sugarloaf Mountain, Rio’s harbor is shielded from storms and offers abundant space for infrastructure, making it ideal even during pre-industrial times. Copenhagen, Denmark – Situated in a sheltered bay with a naturally deep harbor, Copenhagen's port required minimal human intervention for centuries, making it a perfect base for Scandinavian trade and naval activities in Northern Europe.
 
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My two pieces of naval combat feedback are that ratio of ships captured to sunk should be much higher than in EU4 and that there should be more likelihood of indecisive battles where one fleet withdrawals without suffering significant damage.

I do not think you should be able to upgrade ships in Project Caesar but I do think that you should get back some of the materials that went into building a ship when you scrap it. It would make sense to get a high fraction of the cost of cannon back but a lower fraction of the cost of lumber, for example.
 
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The brighter the green the better the harbor can be..
First off, this is a very nice addition compared to eu4.

I'd like to suggest making the location of Kampen (Netherlands) a natural harbour, probably 50% or so. Kampen sits on the mouth of the IJssel river and was probably the most important port city in the Netherlands during the middle ages (outside of Flanders) but on this map it doesn't look like it has a natural harbour, but I think the river mouth definitely deserves that. Kampen was a relatively important town within the Hansa and was even larger than Amsterdam for a long time. Having toll rights over the IJssel also helped a lot. It was only when the IJssel started congesting that Kampen was overtaken by Amsterdam, off the top of my head during the 16th century. I don't know whether natural harbours will be changing during the game but rivers congesting has been a problem since antiquity (Ephesus is a very well known example) so it could provide with interesting dynamics.

Within Friesland there are also a few ports that used to be relatively important and in northern Holland both Hoorn and Medemblik were important port cities during the medieval period so there could be a few changes there too probably. Same is true for Emden in Ostfriesland which still has a decent port (and even a shipyard) nowadays.
I also noticed that Italy's eastern coast is notably void of natural harbours. Maybe around Bari there could be one? I'm not as well versed into that region but I know it was an important coastal town especially during the byzantine period (which is from before this timeline though).
I'm also surprised Calais lacks any sort of natural harbour though I'm sure you guys got that covered in a different way since it already was in eu4 with the staple port.
 
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