Tinto Talks #27 - 28th of August 2024

[Johan]

View attachment 1180407
Bro thinks he's him

fuck no.

 

[Johan]

No one is driving that donkey in the header image... Is that donkey qualified to perform that job alone?

yes

 

[alexkowal123]

Is the building automatically destroyed if relations sink below 100? I imagine that in some instances it would be easier and more realistic if the building was simply frozen or disabled but then reactivates when relations climb over 100 again

Repurposed?

 

[Oglesby]

Shouldn't the embassy give a discount on diplomatic capacity with pacts with the country where the embassy is built, instead of a flat diplomatic capacity bonus?

Also, I think you should be able to build it in the capital of any country you have a pact/ongoing diplomatic capacity cost (especially notably, subjects)

It would also be nice if it gave reduced liberty desire for subjects, since you're lavishing them with gifts, essentially.

I would add that it could have benefit interacting with others that also have a presence in the capital.

I do think that is should be limited to +/- one rank which should allow them in most 'subjects' unless there will be a 'subject' specific embassy-adjacent building.

 

[Johan]

Are you still going to hold onto the requirement for colonies to have the same religion as their parent country?

yes

 

[Johan]

Are there any foreign buildings you can use to mark your sphere of influence?

yes, there are ways for that.

 

[Mindel]

Will there be an extraterritorial nation representing the combined church buildings and clergy of the Catholic church under the authority of the pope?

 

[Oglesby]

This was in regards to how goods are fulfilled in a location

2) building order in location

For number 2, is there any method of adjusting the order of the buildings or am I stuck with the order? Are further levels of the same building placed separately (i.e. is it the build order of the first levels of a building)?

 

[AHumpierRogue]

yes

 

[Trefoldigheden]

for what?
for this.. heute, today idag, hoy

I<--->dag

 

[Johan]

1) Are there any other foreign buildings connected to colonization? When I heard this system was going to be in PC, my first thought was that it would tie into the colonization system.

2) So foreign buildings can give benefits/penalties to both the owner of the building and the owner of the location?

3) Who pays for the construction cost and maintenance of the building?

1 - some like mission yes
2 - ues
3 - the owner

 

[Ugandanboi]

What happens when you acquire the location with one of your own foreign buildings through conquest/etc?

 

[SeekTruthFromFx]

There are a number of really fascinating systems here. I particularly like the idea of Missions that can be built outside your territory; that means we can get the Portuguese-led evangelization of southern Japan and many other interesting situations in the early modern world.

Interesting culture conversion lock. That will indeed prevent us from having katholic Ashkenazim.
Elegant solution, i like it.

From what I understand the change doesn't fix this- rather it makes having Catholic Ashkenazis mandatory.
In order to assimilate Jewish people, you need to first convert them to Christianity. Then you have just have a bunch of Catholic Ashkenazis around.
Only after that, can you assimilate Ashkenazis to your culture (which probably will be a lengthy process).

Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't seem to be a good change.

I agree with @donbg that @Daverix has misunderstood how this works. If Conversion must precede Assimilation, then you will get Catholic and Protestant Ashkenazim.

But surely that is a desirable outcome? We should be able to model Conversos, Disraeli and Marx (two out of period examples, sorry, but couldn't think of famous individuals from the period).

In the particular case of Judaism, we don't need to model Welsh or Arab people who are Jewish-in-religion because that more or less never happened in this period.

What other ethnoreligions are there so far? Miaphysite, Nestorian, Druze, Yazidi, Samaritan, Mandaean?

Miaphysitism isn't an ethnoreligion.

Nestorians weren't an ethnoreligion yet in 1337. Several of the particular national churches within Miaphysitism were close to becoming ethnoreligions by this point, but they need to be modelled individually IMHO, and there's a strong case that they are unsuitable for this feature:

I'm very opposed to this. It feels like if anything it should be the opposite- you can only religiously convert those people when they've been culturally assimilated. For example, Egypt has a 'Coptic' minority following a Christian religion. In our world, the Copts were fully Arabised and integrated into mainstream Egyptian society during the time span of the game. By the 18th-19th century, there was limited distinction between an Egyptian Christian and an Egyptian Muslim in terms of just culture and they were linguistically identical, and we later see this in the role that Copts played in Egyptian politics throughout the Khedivate and later the Sultanate of Egypt.

I'm not too sure about Jews having to be converted to be assimilated as well, when there was a slow and gradual process of Jewish assimilation into the culture of some countries during the Age of Enlightenment. History shows this also happened during the Classical age with most of Jewish people in the Near East becoming Hellenised. All while keeping their religion.

Would rather have this feature be removed than kept as it stands. Another option I mentioned is to prevent religious conversion until the culture is assimilated, though that might come with its own issues.

As I don't think we've had an Egyptian TM yet (happy to be corrected), I compared the Culture and Religion maps from the Tinto Maps Extra on the Sahara, and there seems so be a minority culture that occupies exactly the same locations as the main minority religion in Egypt, so it appears that Copts are indeed modelled as a separate Culture. I agree that having Muslim Copts in the game is undesirable; that's just not a thing in this period. The Culture map shows that the dominant cultures are Egyptian and Sa'idi. It seems to me that Copts should therefore be modelled as Egyptian or Sa'idi in Culture and Coptic Christian in religion. If this is not acceptable, than the devs need to think about adding another mechanic (ethnoreligion version II) that means Copts can only be Assimilated and Converted simultaneously. That sounds like the kind of thing that adds a lot of complexity to the code (because it's going to continually create edge cases) so I would advise them against that.

The fixed amount of converted people is kind of strange, would it be better to be tied to the countries missionary strength to influence the outcome but with a large degree of randomness because historically it could happen for missionaries to be killed or expelled (0 converted) or they could be embraced by a tribe and convert the entire community (500 people converted for example).

I understand where you are coming from and I agree that this would be an improvement (and closer to how things work in EU4). Hopefully that's just the base amount and it will be modified by other factors. But I am also conscious that more calculations mean worse performance. I would prefer to devote CPU cycles to this rather than to warfare, but I suspect we're in the minority. And I am really worried that this game is going to need high-end hardware just to run at all.....

 

[lukesilveira]

Is there are a limit on how many foreign buildings can be in a province? Say Paris having a ton of minor HRE countries embassies.

 

[Berasa 16]

Can we see the embassy?

 

[za3tarani]

no, as many of those are "foreign only" flagged.

could this be changed in a mod?

for instance, you for instance add new "foreign" buildings, that can for instance be sold or "nationalized"? i can think of atleast one mod that would really love this possibility...

and with some estates ("classes") being able to build bythemselves...

 

[Johan]

Oh No Johan, honor is not the most important thing. Live, commit some intrigues and give us more Tinto Talks.
Don't die for honor.

I am more a Tyrion than a Ned.

 

[Johan]

Couldn't stop seeing that it says "available" liquor is -2.48. I'm not sure if crafting has been talked already in grain detail (pun intended), but how can it be a negative availability? What happens when you don't have enough of that material for all the maintenance of buildings?

thats when demand is > supply.

 

[Johan]

Is it possible to make production buildings (e.g. tannery, sheepfarms, cannon maker etc.) in a foreign country and earn the profits made from this building for yourself?

no

 

[za3tarani]

2 - in theory yes

what does in theory mean? is that how it works in game or how it would ideally work? because from the screen shoot they receive the same amount from all locations.