Tinto Talks #27 - 28th of August 2024

[Tasmosunt]

I am more a Tyrion than a Ned.

Show or book?

 

[Johan]

What will the locations' building slot UI look like if there's foreign buildings? Will you be able to see other countries' foreign buildings? What if everyone has one there, wont it be messy?

What if your own location has for example 20 other countries' foreign buildings in it...?

filters and flags

 

[Johan]

+ 1 maritime presence means that trade office can only be build in coastal location?

yes

 

[Johan]

Samaritans confirmed?

yes

 

[Johan]

Is there a Warning before your building is chosen to be destroyed, so that you maybe can do something before?

no.

 

[juanen]

Do you have any map mode where you can see foreign buildings fast?

 

[Guaire123456789]

Two points of feedback.

1) Mission should only be able to Catholic nations. Not even that, just to Spain. In america it was only basically Spain who didn it. Protesntants didnt convert natives they either traded with them or expel them/kill them. And the portuguese were too few and more focused on trade.

2) Missions should be funded by the Church Estate, not by the state. Its just unrealisitic. It was The Catholic Church Missions to convert people, the conquistadors (funded by the state) were there to conquer. Poking @Pavía our infiltrated spaniard hehe

Protestants did try to convert natives, at least at first. During King Philip's War the "Praying Indians", native americans converted to protestantism were important on the side of the colonists.

Therr were even mission equivalents in the Praying Towns

 

[IAmBecomeDeath]

Great dev diary. I love the idea of foreign buildings.

My only suggestion is for more buildings that provide benefits to both the owner of the building and owner of the location. Those symbiotic buildings would be interesting, especially in multi-player.

 

[Johan]

Will explorers from for example Muslim countries still require liquor?

yes

a sailor is a sailor.

 

[TheDwarvenGuy2]

My guess is that another Israelite religion will be Samaritans

 

[Johan]

Sad but not surprised religious orders are tied to Catholicism

no, but these ones are.

 

[Johan]

Any tidbits about feitorias?
Will they work like a trade office or will be fortified?

Thats for the "Portugal flavor" talk

 

[Polesie Admiral]

@Johan , unrelated but can countries gain land through agreements (alliances and such)?

 

[ibvfteh]

some religions are harder

are all cultures assimilated equally?

 

[Johan]

If a nation seizes to exists, what happens to its foreign owned buildings? Can you take over foreign owned buildings in your own country?

if they get annexed and are a location based country, then annexer takes them

 

[Johan]

Can we negotiate missionaries without having a colonial charter? Such as Matteo Ricci establishing a Beijing mission in exchange for letting the Ming court study European clockwork

that would be another mechanic

 

[orwell]

1 - bad relations help
2 - no, but they will move pops to that location, but they will count for them, not for you.

In the case of a building not benefitting the host, this doesn't seem right. I would expect that late game development of services like law and insurance would be represented in the game as a product available only in urban centers. For example, Lloyd's of London was founded in 1689, and these kind of coffee house buildings and services are unlikely to develop in rural settings.

Maybe these types of services are abstracted into other buildings like how a building that consumes coffee and paper produces a bonus to the in location, but I like the idea of tying development and urbanization as a requirement to late game improvements.

Not only would this make for playing tall or a market country more interesting late game, it also helps represent the transition towards the late game where early on its control of land that is vital, to control of the development that becomes more important to defining power.

Additionally, this would in my mind help give more mechanic related reasons to why you might make the historic decision to move your capital from Moscow to a seaside fort you turn into your capital St. Petersburg.

The location has the ability to receive water development buildings you can't get inland, eases foreign development, and by moving your capital there it receives a jumpstart in urbanizing because all the administrative buildings you establish there count towards those urban development points that attracts more investment in urban buildings.

Almost no major city has ever developed without being either a capital of politics, religion, or trade, and historically it was all 3. By representing development through more buildings like trade ones as a benefit to the host nation regardless of ownership, you'll create forces that I expect would better mimic historical reasons these sites grew and developed distinct services that you don't really see in the country side.

I also hope we'll see more river based bonuses to buildings and urbanization, as it would help give reasons to why locations with good river networks like China, India, the US, have developed greater trade capitals, major cities, than other locations.

 

[SeekTruthFromFx]

Are you still going to hold onto the requirement for colonies to have the same religion as their parent country? This means that we can't have the situation like in history where Britain sent their religious minorities to the thirteen colonies, making the colonies mostly filled with quakers and other protestants. It would allow for interesting gameplay, since it would be a choice the player would make: fill the colonies with people you're sure are more loyal, or grow faster by sending less loyal people (since religious minorities probably wont be as loyal) and have more chance of a revolt down the line.

I am in two minds with this. You are assuming that "Quakers and other Protestants" is a separate category from "Anglicans", which is a very contentious assumption in this period. Anglicans universally regarded themselves as Protestants until 1837 (when Newman published On the Prophetical Office), so in this time period Project Caesar can accurately model all non-Roman Catholic English-speaking churches as Protestants, and the problem goes away.

Now, since Johan chose to add Anglicanism to EU4 as a separate Religion, Project Caesar might do the same. As far as I can see from memory and searching this forum, we don't have any info yet about whether and how Protestantism will be subdivided. The existence in the game of separate Protestant denominations would strengthen your case, but I'm still not totally convinced, because the English/British government did not "send" religious minorities to North America as a conscious policy. it was something that happened as an accidental result of the penal laws and the conscious choice of the Nonconformists (non-Church of England Protestants) themselves. This isn't a total bar to allowing it in Project Caesar, because we are playing 'the spirit of the nation' rather than the government, but it means that you have chosen an example that doesn't really support your case. We don't want a mechanic that's trying to model something that never happened.

Wait, *who* builds the Mission building? The player? Because I'd expect them to be built by Orders (the Jesuits, Franciscans etc) or the Church Estate in the tag instead. At least in Brazil, Missions weren't built/granted by the Crown themselves or anything, Jesuits were given permission to build them. They'd even get into conflict with other settlers and bandeirantes for influence over the natives, and by the 18th century, all Jesuits were kicked out from Brazil by the Marquis of Pombal.

I'd expect this to translate in-game to AI buildings Missions inside/near your owned colonies, with you having to deal with their newfounded influence amongst the natives. Actually, now that I said it, the Jesuit missions should probably work like Societies of Pops...

I have put some of your words in bold because they seem important to me. If they were happening with the "permission" of the government, then that is very close to government action given the close ties between church and state in early modern Roman Catholic states, especially Portugal. The 18th century, after the rise of liberalism, is a very different situation. I would be wary of reading the 18th century situation back into the 15th and 16th centuries.

I'd say the various Orders should be their own extraterritorial entities that are subject to the Pope.

Speaking of religion missions and playable Military Orders, how about playable religious orders like the Jesuits? Wouldn't it fit the game architecture and add a new intriguing game style once the military orders fall out of fashion?

This is a very interesting idea that someone should probably flesh out in a separate thread. But part of the difficulty in assessing how independent from their home cultures they really were. Didn't Chinese mandarins and native Americans perceive them as Portuguese or Spaniards first, and Jesuits second?

But if we have Jesuits as playable building-based tags, then PDX should definitely add the Protestant missionary movements of the 18th century as well, such as the Moravians, Baptist Missionary Society, and the Rhenish Missionary Society. They were just as independent from their countries' governments as the Papal religious orders were and founded Missions well outside the territories controlled by their home countries.

Hi there. Do you plan to add guilds (like the Free Masons) as BBCs? Could we set up a BBC that dabbles in unrest creating activities (yes Assassins and Thieves Guilds). IIRC there was at least one medieval thieves guild in Spain.

Edit: Are ther any espionage related aspects to BBC (for example, to discover or hide the secrets of the Free Masons for less building upkeep, or to find more optimal upkeep method thingy). Sorry of my thoughts are all over the place.

This seems to me to be way too specific for a global game like Project Caesar. An event that adds a modifier because there's a thieves' guild in a particular city would be a fun addition. But medieval trade guilds are already modelled in the game as the Burghers Estate.

I would like to see the 18th century Freemasons in the game, because in Catholic Europe they were essentially the equivalent of churches in the liberal 'religion'. But that depends on modelling liberalism as an Ideology (analogous to Religions), and I suspect that's too radical for PDX, even though I think it's by far the best way to model it.

 

[Metz]

What about consulates and embassies?

 

[digaso2805]

Does Portugal has unique buildings like feitorias and other stuff?