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Tinto Talks #34 - 23rd of October 2024

Hello and Welcome to another Tinto Talk, where we spill information about our entirely secret unannounced game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will talk about how slavery works in this game.

Slave Pops
One of the six types of pops we have are the slaves. These lack pretty much every right in all countries, and are simply exploited. They are not allowed to move around on their own, they have harsh enough lives that they are basically only keeping the current population levels at best of times, and they have absolutely no income nor any political power. If they get any sort of literacy they are very likely to be rather upset. At the start of the game the usage of slaves is mostly gone from Europe, but it's more prevalent in other parts of the world.


slaves_cairo.png

Part of the slaves in Cairo at the start..

Usage of Slaves
Slaves are primarily used in resource gathering operations, but they can also be used in various buildings. These types of buildings can be categorized into two types of buildings.

First we have the slave-soldier buildings that require slaves to function, and produce manpower or sailors. These include buildings like mamluk or janissary barracks that provide a part of the armies of the Mamluks and Ottomans.

The second category of buildings are the plantations. These are buildings that you can unlock from Age of Discovery advances. There are three types of plantations, for sugar, tobacco and cotton. These are far more productive than the RGO for the same goods, but require slaves to function.

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One unique building to get you a lot of sailors.

Of course there are other uses for Slaves. In some religions you need a steady stream of them to sacrifice daily to make the Sun go up the next day.


Acquiring Slaves
There are multiple ways to get slaves.

First of all you have the classic way of conquering nearby territories and enslaving part of the population as you sack their cities. This is something that as diverse cultures as amongst others, the Haudenosaunee, Aztec and the Kanem Empire can do from the start. They also get easy access to casus belli to go on slave raiding wars. As you sack a city, a percentage of the population will become slaves and appear in the closest slave market you have, and if none is near enough, then to the closest slave market nearby.

Secondly, we have the Berber States, who engaged in slave raiding from the sea. In Eu4, this was a button you clicked on your ships when they were near a coast that had no slave-raiding-cooldown active. In Project Caesar this ability is a part of the privateering mechanic, in that if you have access to this ability, then your privateers will raid a random coastal location in the area they are in, and take some of the pops as slaves for the closest slave market. This is stopped by having a truce, above 100 opinion, or a good old coastal fortress.

slave_raiding.png

Morocco is one of the countries that can do this from day 1.

Thirdly, you have the Slave Market Building. While it acts as a hub for slave trades, it will also try to enslave pops of non accepted cultures, and different religious groups. This is to simulate how the Delhi Sultanate and others enslaved people in their conquered lands over time.

slave_market.png

It all adds up over time..

Fourthly, you have the possibility to build slave centers in foreign locations that have less power projection than you. This is to simulate part of how the Europeans got their slaves from West Africa to the New World. While a significant part of slaves were bought from other African Kingdoms that were willing to sell slaves taken from their enemies, they were also locally captured by the slavers themselves near their slaving centers. If you wish to fight this in your territories, you need to go to war and forcefully expel them.

Finally, you can trade for slaves. In Project Caesar, slaves exist both as a type of goods and as a type of pop, and they are slightly linked. Buildings can produce slave goods and require slave goods as input. When a slave goods is traded between markets, the game will also move pops in relative sizes to locations that have a demand for slaves.

Thus, if you have buildings or resource gathering operations that can use slaves, they will create a demand for slaves in the market, and if you trade from a market that both produces slave goods and has enough slaves present, the game will move about 200 pops from the slave market each month for each good you trade.

At the start of the game there is the Trans-Saharan trade, where northern african countries import slaves from West Africa, many sold by the Kanem Empire.

Later on, during the Age of Discovery, you will see the triangular trade between Europe, West Africa & Americas, which will reduce the Trans Saharan trade volumes.

There is also another market system, as the Mongol States have access to taking slaves when conquering land, and they created the greatest slave trading network the world has ever seen. Since Muslim states could not keep muslim slaves, and christians did not want christian slaves, the Mongols traded the muslims to the christians and the christians to the muslim countries. The trade links from India goes to central asia as well, as Delhi trades their slaves to other markets, while they get the slaves they require for their mamluk-style armies.



Stay tuned as next week we’ll talk about Great Powers and Hegemonies..
 
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Janissaries were unique to Ottoman Empire

maybe add ghulam for others, but stop giving away stuff which makes up the Ottoman Empire
Hereditary governors in the Maghreb with a turkish anatolian background had janissaries themselves. I see no issue of a beylik that won over the Ottomans, to adopt janissaries.
 
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But that doesn't mean that a certain PM could require less Peasants, while now requiring the Slaves trade good as input. If that was indeed a limitation.

And regarding the "you can replace peasants with slaves on RGOs", Johan specifically said that slaves only work in two categories of buildings. Military buildings and plantations of which there are three types. Sugar, cotton and tobacco.
Raw Materials
As you noticed in the tooltips above, we talk about Raw Materials and Resource Gathering Operations. Every location has one raw material possible that can be extracted, this includes things like lumber, stone, grain, amber, or copper. Of course, there are other ways to get access to the raw materials than merely owning and controlling a location.

Only peasants and slaves will work on gathering raw materials, and how many will work with it depends on how big of an infrastructure you have built up for that. Pops that are working with this will not be producing food, unless the goods are food related.

The maximum size of an infrastructure that can be built up depends on population, development, technologies, and societal values.


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Emphasis mine.
 
But that doesn't mean that a certain PM could require less Peasants, while now requiring the Slaves trade good as input. If that was indeed a limitation.

And regarding the "you can replace peasants with slaves on RGOs", Johan specifically said that slaves only work in two categories of buildings. Military buildings and plantations of which there are three types. Sugar, cotton and tobacco.
RGOs are not 'buildings' and iirc slaves can work in rgos.
 
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The advantage they had was their proximity to the Romans and their willingness to fight them. Veteran Gazi warriors joined the cause of the Ottomans, which naturally didnt happen with other Beyliks. I made a post about exactly that here:


It has nothing to do with raiding. Everyone pretty much raided. And unlike other Beyliks, the Ottomans faced much tougher opponents. Eretna didnt face a strong Bulgaria or a strong Serbia or magnificant leaders in Albania, Wallachia or Moldova. They didnt face the regional powerhouse of Hungary or defeated a crusade in Varna. And I am not saying that you shouldnt be able to do the same if you were to take a similar path as any given anatolian beylik, but this is really not a "they raided so they won" topic.
I'm not saying "they raided so they won", I'm saying that the proximity bit that you talked about at the beginning wasn't just something that had to do with direct, formal conflict with the Byzantines and other states in the Balkans, but also informal conflicts and raids.
 
For modding purposes, what determines if a building can use slaves or not? As in, can we set a building to use or not use them? And can they replace any pop type, or only peasants?
 
Becuse they were subject of the Ottomans lol, it is like why Americans speak English
They were de facto independent and only formerly under the Ottomans. They pretty much raided, even when the Ottoman court said "stop it". It was just not worth the trouble of sending units into the maghreb.

You also dont see governors forming janissaries in Iraq, the Levant or the arabian peninsula. It was specificaly and only among hereditary governors of turkish background governing the maghreb. I dont see why Eretna, if all anatolia is conquered, wouldnt adopt the janissaries.
 
This week we will talk about how slavery works in this game.
Step 1: Find an obscure passage in your religious text of choice.
Step 2: Misconstrue it as giving the green light to own human beings.
Step 3: Find a group of people different enough that you can brand them as "unclean."
Step 4: Kidnap/purchase them and send them to your overseas colonies.
Step 5: Make fun of your colonists' descendants for taking over a hundred years to abolish an institution you left them with, while bragging about banning something that didn't directly affect most of your population.
 
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I'm not saying "they raided so they won", I'm saying that the proximity bit that you talked about at the beginning wasn't just something that had to do with direct, formal conflict with the Byzantines and other states in the Balkans, but also informal conflicts and raids.
So in your opinion it is not the massive influx of veteran soldiers loyal and ready to die for the Ottomans that decided Ottoman hegemony, but some raiding that was conducted by everyone anyways? Sounds legit.
 
So in your opinion it is not the massive influx of veteran soldiers loyal and ready to die for the Ottomans that decided Ottoman hegemony, but some raiding that was conducted by everyone anyways? Sounds legit.
I'm saying that the massive influx of veteran soldiers were there to fight regardless of whether there was a formal declaration of war or not.
 
They were de facto independent and only formerly under the Ottomans. They pretty much raided, even when the Ottoman court said "stop it". It was just not worth the trouble of sending units into the maghreb.

You also dont see governors forming janissaries in Iraq, the Levant or the arabian peninsula. It was specificaly and only among hereditary governors of turkish background governing the maghreb. I dont see why Eretna, if all anatolia is conquered, wouldnt adopt the janissaries.
It doesnt matter whether they were independent or not they borrowed janissary institution from Ottomans, one beylik cant made up janissaries himself,

Levant had already Mamluks left even after the Ottoman conquered, as they already have slave institution they may feel it is not worth bringing the janissaries, doesnt matter as janissaries are unique troops available only to Ottomans, not anybody else (maybe some of its subjects may use to)



What you want is like adding SS troops to Switzerland in hoi4 just because they are German lol
 
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Tribesman and peasant at the same time in most countries so there is no one lowest status
Or perhaps more simply, if the country is organized feudally, bourgeois, clerical and related organizations slaves become peasants, and if it is organized as a tribe and less developed forms slaves become tribesmen.
 
I have an question. Will eastern european slave trade be also represented in Project Ceasar just like Atlantic slave trade?
Crimean Tatars, captured little more than 3.000.000 people and many Ottoman women in harem were slavic.

Or we pretend that it's east europe and it doesn't exist?
 
1. With plantations needing slaves to function, will there be a similar building that non-slaving countries can build to produce cotton and tobacco that doesn't use slaves?

2. What happens when a slave market runs out of wrong-culture pops to enslave?
 
Or perhaps more simply, if the country is organized feudally, bourgeois, clerical and related organizations slaves become peasants, and if it is organized as a tribe and less developed forms slaves become tribesmen.
So one can generate peasants using tribesman pops as a organized state then,
Which seems like a major exploit