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Tinto Talks #34 - 23rd of October 2024

Hello and Welcome to another Tinto Talk, where we spill information about our entirely secret unannounced game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week we will talk about how slavery works in this game.

Slave Pops
One of the six types of pops we have are the slaves. These lack pretty much every right in all countries, and are simply exploited. They are not allowed to move around on their own, they have harsh enough lives that they are basically only keeping the current population levels at best of times, and they have absolutely no income nor any political power. If they get any sort of literacy they are very likely to be rather upset. At the start of the game the usage of slaves is mostly gone from Europe, but it's more prevalent in other parts of the world.


slaves_cairo.png

Part of the slaves in Cairo at the start..

Usage of Slaves
Slaves are primarily used in resource gathering operations, but they can also be used in various buildings. These types of buildings can be categorized into two types of buildings.

First we have the slave-soldier buildings that require slaves to function, and produce manpower or sailors. These include buildings like mamluk or janissary barracks that provide a part of the armies of the Mamluks and Ottomans.

The second category of buildings are the plantations. These are buildings that you can unlock from Age of Discovery advances. There are three types of plantations, for sugar, tobacco and cotton. These are far more productive than the RGO for the same goods, but require slaves to function.

galley_barracks.png

One unique building to get you a lot of sailors.

Of course there are other uses for Slaves. In some religions you need a steady stream of them to sacrifice daily to make the Sun go up the next day.


Acquiring Slaves
There are multiple ways to get slaves.

First of all you have the classic way of conquering nearby territories and enslaving part of the population as you sack their cities. This is something that as diverse cultures as amongst others, the Haudenosaunee, Aztec and the Kanem Empire can do from the start. They also get easy access to casus belli to go on slave raiding wars. As you sack a city, a percentage of the population will become slaves and appear in the closest slave market you have, and if none is near enough, then to the closest slave market nearby.

Secondly, we have the Berber States, who engaged in slave raiding from the sea. In Eu4, this was a button you clicked on your ships when they were near a coast that had no slave-raiding-cooldown active. In Project Caesar this ability is a part of the privateering mechanic, in that if you have access to this ability, then your privateers will raid a random coastal location in the area they are in, and take some of the pops as slaves for the closest slave market. This is stopped by having a truce, above 100 opinion, or a good old coastal fortress.

slave_raiding.png

Morocco is one of the countries that can do this from day 1.

Thirdly, you have the Slave Market Building. While it acts as a hub for slave trades, it will also try to enslave pops of non accepted cultures, and different religious groups. This is to simulate how the Delhi Sultanate and others enslaved people in their conquered lands over time.

slave_market.png

It all adds up over time..

Fourthly, you have the possibility to build slave centers in foreign locations that have less power projection than you. This is to simulate part of how the Europeans got their slaves from West Africa to the New World. While a significant part of slaves were bought from other African Kingdoms that were willing to sell slaves taken from their enemies, they were also locally captured by the slavers themselves near their slaving centers. If you wish to fight this in your territories, you need to go to war and forcefully expel them.

Finally, you can trade for slaves. In Project Caesar, slaves exist both as a type of goods and as a type of pop, and they are slightly linked. Buildings can produce slave goods and require slave goods as input. When a slave goods is traded between markets, the game will also move pops in relative sizes to locations that have a demand for slaves.

Thus, if you have buildings or resource gathering operations that can use slaves, they will create a demand for slaves in the market, and if you trade from a market that both produces slave goods and has enough slaves present, the game will move about 200 pops from the slave market each month for each good you trade.

At the start of the game there is the Trans-Saharan trade, where northern african countries import slaves from West Africa, many sold by the Kanem Empire.

Later on, during the Age of Discovery, you will see the triangular trade between Europe, West Africa & Americas, which will reduce the Trans Saharan trade volumes.

There is also another market system, as the Mongol States have access to taking slaves when conquering land, and they created the greatest slave trading network the world has ever seen. Since Muslim states could not keep muslim slaves, and christians did not want christian slaves, the Mongols traded the muslims to the christians and the christians to the muslim countries. The trade links from India goes to central asia as well, as Delhi trades their slaves to other markets, while they get the slaves they require for their mamluk-style armies.



Stay tuned as next week we’ll talk about Great Powers and Hegemonies..
 
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The Qizilbash topic is about 200 years after the formation of the Janissary. You are nitpicking historic events to push the idea that Janissaries could only be shia (alevism is a branch of shia islam). That is factually wrong, since the Janissaries did not start off with a preferential and dominant religious order. And whether they were "noticable" during the 1400s, doesnt change the fact that they were founded in the late 14th
they were founded by Ottomans still ;)
, so however they were founded doesnt change the fact that it was founded by Ottomans, not anybody else, and timeframe doesnt matter the only thing is who
century. You are bending facts to fit your narrative. You even deny the existence of Janissaries in the maghreb region entirely founded and payrolled by de facto independent countries, only to fuel your very specific narrative.
Janissaries were never used outside of the Ottoman Empire

Se facto independent countries you are talking were part of the Ottoman Empire, whether they act independent or not.

Unless another Anatolian beylik joins the Ottoman Empire, they cant get janissaries ;)
 
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so however they were founded doesnt change the fact that it was founded by Ottomans, not anybody else, and timeframe doesnt matter the only thing is who
By this logic, nobody in the world (real or in-game) should have marines, because the Venetians did it first. You act like Janissaries are such a groundbreaking idea, that nobody would have come up with it had another beylik came out on top instead of the Ottomans.
 
Maybe you can make it a law
Where depending on the law you limit the reproduction of slaves. Since the population stays constant=1 just give it values from [0;1] depending on the law, where 0 would be castration and 1 be hereditary ...

You could make it, per year: #slave_pop=s*#slave_pop + (1-s)*#slave_pop*r

Where:
#slave_pop = number of slaves in location
s = survivability =0.6+ 0.0007*years since start of game (gives values comparable to historical data ) in[0.6;0.95)
r = reproduction define as in last post in[0;1]

There are easy options to make it more complex: let the reproduction be positively impacted by survivability instead of (1-s) you could use just "s" then slave pop can increase, if you allow them to(law: r>0.6 at the start)and you can also limit that with devastation "d" and increase it with prosperity "p" like:
#slave_pop=(s*#slave_pop + s*#slave_pop*r*(1+0.2p))*(1-0.3d)

Looking at that you can have a easily more complex slave system with just a variable which you calculate globally : s,
A variable you set per country with laws : r,
And the slave pop,prosperity, and devastation data you already have for every location.

But since devastation and prosperity probably already influenced pop growth just half the effects of prosperity for slaves and double it for devastation
 
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Who's the one providing Genoa with galley slaves? You pointed the Berber states out so particularly, will the Italian city states (or mediterraneans in general) have the same mechanics? I only know that the Knight of Malta did the corso, but I mean someones gotta provide those muslim galley slaves and it surely won't be the North Africans...
 
Who's the one providing Genoa with galley slaves? You pointed the Berber states out so particularly, will the Italian city states (or mediterraneans in general) have the same mechanics? I only know that the Knight of Malta did the corso, but I mean someones gotta provide those muslim galley slaves and it surely won't be the North Africans...
Maybe the Mongols in Genoa-controlled slave markets of Caffa, Azov.
 
The second category of buildings are the plantations. These are buildings that you can unlock from Age of Discovery advances. There are three types of plantations, for sugar, tobacco and cotton. These are far more productive than the RGO for the same goods, but require slaves to function.

Shouldn't there be more buildings, not necessary plantations, where slaves improve productivity, coffee comes first in mind?

All in all, great work!
 
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they were founded by Ottomans still ;)
, so however they were founded doesnt change the fact that it was founded by Ottomans, not anybody else, and timeframe doesnt matter the only thing is who
This is a strawman through and through. You do realize that this is not an argument for the fact that the janissaries were not exlusively shia from the get go? First you argue about the Bektashi order, which only became prominent in the 15th century. Then the Janissaries were not shia, but alevi, despite the fact that alevism is a shia branch. And now suddenly the Qizilbash, which was just a reference to the hair colour of people, is an invention of the Ottomans, which would mean that the Ottomans invented a branch of shia islam that existed before the Ottomans were a thing. Do you even think before you argue? I dont think you have any idea what you are talking about.
Janissaries were never used outside of the Ottoman Empire

Except they were. Idk what you think janissaries were, but they were essentially an infantry regiment. They trainsitions from professional soldiers to infantry brigates in the 17th century. You make it sound like "professional soldiers" didnt exist outside of the Ottomans and that the Ottomans invented line-infantry, which is just absurd. There is no reason to believe that an effective system wont be adopted by a country winning over the Ottomans, as the Ottomans did, when they conquered roman lands and kept the roman administrative.

Unless another Anatolian beylik joins the Ottoman Empire, they cant get janissaries ;)
Thanks Mr. Janissary police. Next time the world is going to ask for your permission.
 
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Hi,

Will Russia’s practice of taking slaves in war be represented in-game? If not why isn’t it? For example, in the Great Northern War (early 18th century), Russia took tens of thousands of slaves from Finland, out of a population of 300k to 400k, to work their manors as ”serfs”, to be sex slaves, to build Saint Petersburg, to be soldiers in their armies and to be sold in Persian slave markets.

Russia differed from other European states regarding this, because it’s pretty much the only ”Christian” nation to take slaves in war, of other Europeans and Christians. I find it strange if this isn’t depicted in-game, Because these are the unique things which bring flavor to differing states.
 
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in that case the Italian countries should employ convicts for galleys, not slaves :p

is there a practical difference? Well yes. For if you outlaw slavery you don't cut your own sailor supply... and also military the victory at Lepanto among other things was attributed to the fact that when boarded, the Italian galleymen had a reason to fight back... given that their eventual freedom was at stake

for the Ottoman galleymen? Heck they were mostly christians, why would they help their enslavers to fight off other christians?

sooo uh yeah. You could make that a small buff / debuff to galleys and give Italian countries a special building for sailor generetion that doesn't use slaves
That can be the whole new dynamic, having slave manned navy requesting raids, enslavement and slave trade, giving cheaper galleys (building and maintaining them), convicts would give morale boost, and lower price, but increase unrest and corruption (due tendency to criminal deeds), and regular sailors would have no maluses, maybe better discipline or something like that.
 
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"they have absolutely no income nor any political power"
does that also apply to slaves like the Janissaries? cuz if i remember right at the later parts of the empire they had quite a bit of political power
 
I’d strongly argue that you reconsider the dynamic of slave pops not growing. After all slave populations growing is part of the reason the Americas are such diverse places today
As I understood Johans statement in that aspect, slave pops won't grow naturally, only with acquiring new slaves as described in TT. So they would be able to grow, just not by procreation as other types of pops.

Don't know is there's any relevant data from which is clear that slaves population was growing naturally, that is without new slaves acquired. They were having offspring, but they died at much higher rate than free pops, their kids too, so it's probably an educated guess to make the slave pops maintaining their numbers at best naturaly.
 
This is a strawman through and through. You do realize that this is not an argument for the fact that the janissaries were not exlusively shia from the get go? First you argue about the Bektashi order, which only became prominent in the 15th century. Then the Janissaries were not shia, but alevi, despite the fact that alevism is a shia branch. And now suddenly the Qizilbash, which was just a reference to the hair colour of people, is an invention of the Ottomans, which would mean that the Ottomans invented a branch of shia islam that existed before the Ottomans were a thing. Do you even think before you argue? I dont think you have any idea what you are talking about.
My cousin is alevi lol, they are not shia branch they dont classify themselves as Shia, they say they are Alevi

Also, whether janissaries were bektashi from beginning or not doesnt matter, it is Ottoman social status and troop type
Except they were. Idk what you think janissaries were, but they were essentially an infantry regiment.
janissaries could be cavalry to, they carried bows, axes, kılıj, firearms etc,

you dont know what you are talking about, janissaries were guads of the Ottoman Sultans, thus another beylik having Janissary mean his soldiers are actually guards of house of Osman lol :D

I dont know if any ruler in history would accept such humiliation ;)

They trainsitions from professional soldiers to infantry brigates in the 17th century. You make it sound like "professional soldiers" didnt exist outside of the Ottomans and that the Ottomans invented line-infantry, which is just absurd. There is no reason to believe that an effective system wont be adopted by a country winning over the Ottomans, as the Ottomans did, when they conquered roman lands and kept the roman administrative.


You have a big error lol

You claim a beylik would adopt janisaaries because it is superior than their soldiers after defeating Ottomans,

However, if their soldiers were worse, tehy shouldnt be able to take over Ottomans

Thus, they are either weak and cant destroy Ottomans, or tehy had superior army which means there is no point of conscripting soldiers of Ottoman dynasty which would cause rebellion ;)
Thanks Mr. Janissary police. Next time the world is going to ask for your permission.

Wow Australians lost to Emus, they should adopt Emu infantry because Emus beat them hahaha
 
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As I understood Johans statement in that aspect, slave pops won't grow naturally, only with acquiring new slaves as described in TT. So they would be able to grow, just not by procreation as other types of pops.

Don't know is there's any relevant data from which is clear that slaves population was growing naturally, that is without new slaves acquired. They were having offspring, but they died at much higher rate than free pops, their kids too, so it's probably an educated guess to make the slave pops maintaining their numbers at best naturaly.
I disagre, in the America’s slave population grew exponentially due to all the procreation. Slavery was an investment, in the 13 colonies you would go great lengths to keep your slave alive after a beating. The African-Americans of America would not compose such a significant portion of the population today if slave procreation numbers were stagnant.
 
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The devshirme did not make a significant number of christian boys, and later to a large number if not mostly muslims, to slaves but to (forced and converted) conscripts. Janissaries should simply be tied to the population itself, not any slave pops and they should be an estate by themselves.
 

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That can be the whole new dynamic, having slave manned navy requesting raids, enslavement and slave trade, giving cheaper galleys (building and maintaining them), convicts would give morale boost, and lower price, but increase unrest and corruption (due tendency to criminal deeds), and regular sailors would have no maluses, maybe better discipline or something like that.
I would absolutely love that, you have no idea at all how much I would like that

let's dearly hope we will get to see something like it, cause that seems so so so so cool. And, importantly, more historically correct than the proposed current system