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Tinto Talks #35 - 30th of October

Hello everyone and welcome to another Tinto Talks, as it's a Happy Wednesday, the day of the week where we spill information about our super-mega-fantastically-secret game with the code name of Project Caesar.

Today we’ll talk about three relatively related topics, relating to Country Ranks, Great Powers and Hegemonies.

Country Ranks
There are four ranks that countries can have in Project Caesar. It is more similar to EU4 than Imperator in that changing country ranks is something you actively do on your own. Besides having various rules on what a country can do, they also give some benefits, and rather importantly to the player experience, they impact what the countries are called.

The code supports multiple types of ranks at the same level, so modders could in theory add dozens of variants of a duchy rank if they so desire.

The default rank is the County Rank, which all countries default to, unless set up to be something else.

The first rank above that is the Duchy Rank, where you can now guarantee other countries, and a little bit higher diplomatic capacity and power projection. Countries that start on this level include the Duchy of Brittany or the Duchy of Lithuania. To be able to upgrade from a county to a duchy, you can not be in any International Organizations that disallow rank changes, but you also need at least 100,000 pops of your primary culture.

The next rank above that is the Kingdom Rank, which requires 1 million pops of your primary culture and gives a larger diplomatic range and other abilities. This includes countries like the Kingdom of Sweden and the Sultanate of Delhi

The final rank, the Empire Rank, which is the hardest to promote to, allows for a wider variety of diplomatic actions, and other abilities. At the start of the game there is only one Empire in Europe though, the Eastern Roman one. A country must become a Great Power before they are able to attain this rank, and there are special restrictions on Catholic countries from pretending to be emperors without the Pope’s permission.

become_kingdom.png

Yeah, Livonian Order with about 380 Prussians has a bit of a challenge here..

Great Powers
A great power is a country that through advances, population, land area, development, and other factors has risen to be one of the most powerful countries in the world, and as such gains the ability to influence other countries simply by throwing its weight around.

The countries with the highest great power score become great powers. Subjects and countries fighting for their independence may not become Great Powers.

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The countries you’d perhaps expect to be Great Powers in 1337 right?


Currently there are always eight different countries that are the Great Powers, but this is not a design we are 100% satisfied with. We have been talking about making the amount variable per age, or by using a threshold. We’ve also talked about mechanics for regional powers, but all designs so far have some severe drawbacks, for example how we would define the geographical area to make it feel good.

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There are some advantages to being a Great Power after all…


Hegemony
This is another feature that was introduced in the ‘Emperor’ DLC for EU4, but here will be a part of the base game. In that game this was a late game mechanic that would pit the most dominant countries against each other. This created a mechanic that most people never saw, and if they saw it in single-player, it was merely a tool to make the player even more powerful when he had already won the game.

In this game, however, the Hegemony mechanics unlock through an advance in the Age of Discovery.

We currently have three types of hegemony, Military, Navy and Economic, in the game, similar to EU4, and you can only be one type of Hegemony at the same time. We could be open to adding maybe a Cultural Hegemony as well, as the next few weeks Tinto Talks will show things about Culture-related systems.

To proclaim a Hegemony you need to be a Great Power, and then have a bigger army, navy or economy than all other great powers. After you proclaim it, you get a bonus where most of it scales with how long you have held the hegemony.

In a game where a casus belli is not always easy to get, the fact that you can always create a Casus Belli on any hegemon, if you are not one yourself, can be beneficial.

If you ever lose a war as a hegemon, you will lose your hegemony.

And remember, if you lose your hegemony, your prestige and diplomatic reputation will suffer.

hegemon.png

This one is kind of fun to have..

Stay tuned, as next week, we will do the first development diary about our new cultural mechanics in Project Caesar.
 
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Can't say I'm a fan of the described hegemony mechanics. IMO, "hegemony" should be a shift in the diplomatic "terrain" of a region. Once a power breaks out and becomes the clear dominant power, the regional diplomatic dynamics should shift from interstate anarchy to states trying to exist in a system centered on the hegemon and basically appeasing it as much as they're willing to to avoid being eaten. Becoming a hegemon should be something that happens naturally as states go from trying to hammer down the nail that sticks out to just trying to co-exist with it.
 
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This seems odd. If I'm the economic hegemon and I lose a small conflict with another country, in which I lose only a couple of poor locations, while leaving intact all of the territories and resources that make me the economic hegemon, why should I lose the title? An hegemon being defeated in a war should, at most, reduce some of the variables/score that contribute to it being the hegemon, instead of automatically making it lose that title altogether.
Don't agree. A hegemon protects its image above all. It might not think losing some stuff is bad, but others will think so. "If they lost there, they can lose here as well!". Don't claim hegemony if you're not willing to defend your stuff.
 
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Hmmmm. Can’t it be more punishing? Like if you have a strong navy. It’s not you who claim the hegemony, but the other nations start deeming you as a navy hegemon, cutting ties with you and becoming more fearful. Like an endgame limitation. Will also stop the power creep because why you need more buffs when you are literally a hegemon

Interesting hmm..
 
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What does it mean when it says that GP score from rank is exempt from forfeit?
Also since this didn't get answered last week, can you conduct anti-slavery patrols akin to the British West African Squadron?
 
I'm not a fan of the primary culture requirement. If I take France for example, it is very far from the 5 millions pop requirement to be an empire. I'm not even sure they have the 1 million primary pop to have the kingdom rank.
 
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One of the biggest problems I have with eu4 as it exists now is snowballing, and how there's a lack of mechanics that tear empires apart. While I think this system is an improvement, and great powers should obviously have advantages compared to smaller countries, I feel like these systems could end up making it too easy to stay powerful. While I understand that a lot of the mechanics in Caesar are meant to address this are you considering incorporating any costs or restrictions directly into the great power system?
 
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Nice DD, it looks quite good.

Questions:
1. About the economic Hegemon, how is the economy calculated? The total production of goods * their current market value at their current market as a proxy of GDP? Or maybe the total income of all Estates (before taxes)?

2. If I am correct, are these two numbers almsot the same as the main revenue source for the Estates is good production and then for the crown the taxing of said Esates revenue?

3. If we have a sort of GDP number, could we have it in ledgers and graphs so that we can both see our number over time and also compare to other countries?
It would be great to have both a GDP total and a per capita so that if you are playing a tall game you can see how far you succeeded.

4. Alsois it planned to have similar ledgers and graphs for population numbers (total and accepted)? I really loved seing my pop numbers go up in Vic2 and the pop increase techs are the ones I would always rush to. Baby making go brrrr.
 
I'm wondering: what country rank will have societies of pops, army based countries and banks? Will they be a county/duchy rank countries or will they have unique rank/s?

same ranks atm
 
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Interesting hmm..

It would be much better to have the status of hegemon be a label that other nations stick to you, rather than something you declare for yourself. And it should come plenty of bad as well as good.

For one thing, it would the natural wake-up call for AI nations to recognize a global threat in the lategame, finally inserting that balance-of-power mechanic the EU4 desperately needs on top of just AE.
 
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As people have already written, using trade range or diplo range for regional powers could be an answer. But why introduce special tiers at all, unless they are cosmetic in nature? If you are the biggest country in your region, you can already reap the benefits of this without any arbitrary bonuses:
  • since you're stronger, other countries are more likely to become your tributaries or cede provinces to you if you threaten them
  • since your economy is bigger, other countries have to trade in your market
  • since you have more diplo capacity, you are able to spare it to influence other countries, while they have to spend their limited capacity on maintaining good relations with you
I think the same can apply to great powers as well. You're a great power when you can throw your weight around, not when you pass some arbitrary threshold and unlock additional buttons. Imagine the Congress of Vienna where everyone tells the Prussian King: "Look, Freddie or Willie or whatsyourname, you're a cool guy and all, but look, there's Britain, France, Russia, Austria, Spain that are bigger European powers than you, but there are also the Turks, the Chinese, the Marathas, the Sikhs, the Japanese. Even the Koreans are reportedly bigger than you. We'll only take you seriously if you are in the top eight powers worldwide. No shade."
 
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A country's "rank" and "noble title" should be two different things. There are many countries throughout the timeline of PC that would have the rank of a county or duchy but have the noble title of duchy or kingdom, respectively (i.e., Duchy of Oldenburg or Kingdom of Hanover).

The mechanic of country rank should pretty much stay the same, but a new mechanic for country title should be added that grants prestige, cultural, and maybe even diplomatic bonuses. Gaining a new noble title could only occur (in Europe at least) if the HRE emperor grants it (Prussia) or if the Pope does so. Maybe during the Revolutionary period (the 1790s-1810s), the Revolutionary nation could grant noble titles to its client states (i.e., how Napoleon elevated Bavaria, Wurtemburg, etc.).

The Kingdom of Spain should be able to gain an "empire country rank" even as it keeps its "kingdom noble title." Country rank should also be something that can be lost. If Spain loses its colonial empire and several wars, it should be reduced to a "duchy country rank" even as it maintains its "kingdom noble title."

It doesn't make sense for Byzantium to have all the bonuses of being an "Empire country rank" in PC when it's basically a rump state. It should be modeled as a "kingdom country rank" with an "Empire noble title."
 
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Stay tuned, as next week, we will do the first development diary about our new cultural mechanics in Project Caesar.
Also, are Tinto Talks considered as development diaries or...?
 
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How do conquering empires play with the country rank system? Do states like the timurids , crusading states, and Indian sultanates (that are not kingdoms at the start) stay as duchies until they assimilate enough pops?
 
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small other thing

why is Japan a GP but Majahapit no? This is about the absolute height of that empire, and at the time they were the second richest country on earth. Where are they?
Tbf, 1337 is just before Gajah Mada went on his conquering spree, so Majapahit could be considered right on the cusp of greatness and true dominance in the region.
 
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It seems to me that hegemony and great power are being brought very close together to solve a couple of issues. Wouldn't it make sense to unite them?

Also, yay culture :p
 
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