Tinto Talks #36 - 6th of November

[guinea prince]

The Common Language of a country is simply the language that is used by the primary culture. It can’t be chosen or changed without affecting the Primary Culture.

So wait if I'm reading this right, a people's language is immutable tied to the people, right? What happens when the colonialism ball starts rolling, do we never start learning the colonizing language or do we suddenly all become British, French, etc?

Correct, accepted culture and primary culture only. In Caesar, Cores are powerful and expensive and we don't give them away willy nilly.

I think I speak for all us overseas territories when I say... boy how I wish

 

[SaintDaveUK]

Since some content is locked to specific cultures, would you automatically lose that culture-specific content if you switch your primary culture to one that doesn't have that content? For example, if your English and enact a policy that only the English culture has access to, then switch your primary culture to Highland, will you immediately lose that specific policy simply because you switched primary cultures, or will you be able to keep that policy until you switch it to something else, at which point you then lose access to it?

It depends on the exact piece of content. Advances will stay but special units usually won't.

 

[CapnMunch]

Currently no. Interested to hear opinions of how that could work though.

Will colonies work similarly to EU4 where there are “former colonial” tags that can be created by decision?

If so, I would suggest tying a colonial culture to each of those and then dynamically modifying it when the tag is formed.

So if I’m Breton and my colony becomes Texas, the Texan culture becomes a clone of Breton (apart from geographic culture groups and other elements that wouldn’t make sense).

 

[Caracus]

What a wet dream this DD is. Having different tiers and also differentiations between liturgical, common and even market language is so awesome.
As a middle German I also feel a lot more represented than this atrocity of just north and south German Vic 3 did continue to represent.

I also hope this has the power to naturally develop cultures/languages branching off over time. Like for example the dutch becoming so far removed and the Swiss also following their local dialect over the German standardization. AND of course gives the player the opportunity to stop this diversion by keeping them in the HRE, with the same religion and market and so on and so on.

Details like these are the foundation of what can make each game much different when you compare the end dates, even if you dont play in the region.

 

[Atromb]

The way market language is determined might need to be reconsidered, as others have pointed out, I doubt it would have been czech rather than german the primary language in the prague market.

 

[Zerodv]

The market setup that leads to Italian and West Slavic being the market languages of so much of Germany is wild

 

[HighQualityPink]

Of course.

Thank you so, so much.

 

[Metz]

In the base game, cultures and culture groups don't have any modifiers. But it's exposed to modders if they want to create a fantasy Orc race with unique modifiers, or give the Welsh culture its historic bonuses for example.

Will some countries be better at things such as navy, trade, cavalry, etc. through some mechanism? Or does the way they are configured at the start make them organically better (geography, population size, existing buildings, market location, diplomatic status, etc.)?

 

[perceval350]

I love everything except the limit on accepted culture, especially the fact that, again, advances have a role in determining how many cultures you can accept which I think really plays into the bad GSG trope of everything is about tech.
I would've prefered a system that is not about how many cultures you can accept but about how much efforts does it take to accept a culture depending on how related your primary culture is with it.

Also I have a question, have you planned to make some culture more tied to certain religions ? (for example, making italians harder to convert to islam compared to another christian faith

Finally, on the topic of colonial cultures, in the Flavor Event Suggestions (please add your own) I made a suggestion about a chain event on the Great Trek which contains a proposal on how colonial cultures could be formed

Birth of the [name based on most populous culture within the cultures that form the new culture] culture.​

Historical description: this event aims to describe the birth of the Boer culture in a more dynamic way so that other nations than Lowland Countries can give birth to a settler culture in South Africa.

Notes :​

• This event can happen several times if several nations have colonized south africa directly or indirectly. However, if a European nation has created several colonial nations in South Africa, all those colonial nations will share the same settler culture created by this event. And if several colonies have the same cultural and religious makeup but are not owned by or subject to the same state, they will also share the same settler culture created by this event.​
• This kind of culture birth event could be generalized to all settler colonies, even though it might already be covered by a PC mechanic​

Date : 50 to 100 years after a european colony was established in South Africa

Nations : any nation that is a european colony in South Africa, independant or not or any european nation that holds territories directly in South Africa

Conditions :​

• more than 50 years since this colonial nation has been founded or since a south african territory has been colonized directly by a european power. Once it’s been 50 years since the first location was colonized the event starts to have a monthly chance to trigger​

MTTH : 50 years


Description : Since [date of the foundation of the colonial nation concerned by this event or date of the first colonization of a south african province by the european nation concerned by this event], european colonists have come a very long way for the opportunity to settle the vast territories of South Africa. As time passed, the hardships of colonization, a common faith, the extreme remoteness of the region and the relative cultural pluralism have given birth to the [name of the new culture] settler culture, that was mainly formed by the [name of the most populous group with pops that have both a common european culture and a common religion in the colonial nation or the south african territories held by the european nation concerned by this event. Ex : Dutch reformed] group but is also composed of the [all the groups with pops that have both a common european culture and a common religion that is the same religion as the one of the most populous group and are in the colonial nation or the south african territories held by the european nation concerned by this event, as long as each one of these groups represent more than 15% of the european population of this colony/territory. Ex : German reformed and French reformed (this section doesn’t exist if there is no other group that fits these criteria)] group(s). This new culture will surely represent a great factor of unification for the south african settlers but it might also become another distance between South Africa and Europe.

Effect :​

• create a new culture whose name is dynamically based on the most populous group with pops that have both a common european culture and a common religion in the colonial nation or the south african territories held by the european nation concerned by this event (potential examples : Boers if this group has a culture that is in the dutch groupe, Paysans/Africains for the french group, Peasants/Africans for the english group…)​
• the culture created is in the cultural group of the most populous group with pops that have both a common european culture and a common religion in the colonial nation or the south african territories held by the european nation concerned by this event​
• the culture created has the language of the culture of the most populous group with pops that have both a common european culture and a common religion in the colonial nation or the south african territories held by the european nation concerned by this event​
• 10% of all the pops who are part of groups with pops that have both a common european culture and a common religion that is the same religion as the one of the most populous group and are in the colonial nation or the south african territories held by the european nation concerned by this event and represent more than 15% of the european population of this colony/territory will convert to the newly created culture​
• From now on, all the pops that have both the same culture and the same religion as the groups that initially formed the settler culture (most populous group and all groups that represent more than 15% of the european population and have the same religion as the main group) will be very likely to convert to this settler culture. All pops that don’t have the same culture but have the same religion and all pops who are of the same culture but not the same religion will be much less likely to convert to this settler culture. All the pops that don’t have the same culture and the same religion will have close to no chances to convert to this settler culture​

​

The Great Trek.​

Historical description: The strong discontent of Boer farmers against the British administration installed in Cape Colony during the Napoleonic wars found its peak when Britain abolished slavery in its colonies in 1834. As a result, between 10,000 and 15,000 Dutch farmers left the colony to go north and founded three Boer republics in which slavery would be allowed and British rule avoided. Even though the Great Trek historically happened at the very end of PC’s time frame, as this event is mainly related to South Africa changing its ruler and slavery being abolished by this new ruler, those conditions could definitely be met far before the end date.

Notes :​

• This event could give birth to a situation.​
• Also, it could be an interesting idea to generalize the trek phenomenon to all places where Europeans established settlement colonies with slaves (this could be something that happens in America when you abolish slavery in colonies that are mostly inhabited by european cultures that are not accepted by you), even though it might lead to too much chaos but might still be very fun​
• This event triggers for both the colonial nation or nations in South Africa and their overlord or overlords to give all of them the chance to play a republic formed by the Great Trail.​
• This event can happen several times if there are several settler cultures in South Africa. If, for example, a nation were to have taken control of territories in which there are two different settler cultures, then this nation would experience 2 great trails​
• It would be better to portray the trek as people forming societies of pops who will eventually become republics but it doesn’t fit with societies of pops being AI only, so many things this event portrays are big abstractions​

Date : As soon as slavery can be abolished

Nations : any nation that is a European colony in South Africa, independant or not, and any nation that is the overlord of a European colony in South Africa or holds directly territories in south africa

Conditions :​

• There is one or more settler cultures in South Africa​
• The nation concerned by this event :​
  • is the overlord of a colonial nation and doesn’t have as an accepted culture one or more of the settler cultures in this subject colonial nation and/or isn’t of the same religion as the religion(s) associated to one or more of the settler cultures in this subject colonial nation​
  • or, is a colonial nation that has an overlord that doesn’t have as an accepted culture one or more of the settler cultures in this subject colonial nation and/or isn’t of the same religion as the religion(s) associated to one or more of the settler cultures in this subject colonial nation​
  • or, is a european nation that holds territories in South Africa and doesn’t have as an accepted culture one or more of the settler cultures in this territories and/or isn’t of the same religion as the religion(s) associated to one or more of the settler cultures in this region​
  • or, the nation concerned by this event is an independent european colony who doesn’t have as an accepted culture one or more of the settler cultures in this colonial nation and/or isn’t of the same religion as the religion(s) associated to one or more of the settler cultures in this colonial nation​
• Slavery has been abolished in the european colony in South Africa​
• There is at least one province that fits these requirements :​
  • The province is separated by at least one province from any european colony in South Africa (unless there is a way to calculate distance)​
  • The province is not separated from a european colony in South Africa by more than 4 provinces​
  • The province has more than 50% of its locations that are grasslands, woods or forest​

Description : Since the [overlord of the colonial nation in South Africa or “ruling” culture of South Africa] took over the south african territories, tensions between the [overlord’s “ruling” culture or south african independent colonial nation’s “ruling” culture] ruling class and [settler culture in the south african colonial nation] farmers never stopped to rise. South Africa is a very isolated colony and, even though the [settler culture in the south african colonial nation/territory] elites are closer to the interests of their overlord, the farmers are strongly attached to their cultural identity, their religion, their autonomy and of course to the practice of slavery on which they heavily rely on. When slavery was abolished by [overlord of the colonial nation in South Africa or “ruling” culture of South Africa+government], those tensions reached a point of no return. A significant part of the [name of the settler culture] peasantry has now decided to leave their former land to go settle far from the influence of their new overlord.

Effect :​

• 5% of the population of the settler culture will leave the colonial territories to found new states, only peasants can be part of those 5%​
• Creates a certain number of republics based on this 5% population that left the colony. There should be at least a thousand people per republic created​
• Those republics will each start with one owned location and a colonial charter in a random province that fits all these requirements :​
  • The province is separated by at least one province from any european colony in South Africa (unless there is a way to calculate distance)​
  • The province is not separated from a colony by more than 4 provinces​
  • The province has more than 50% of its locations that are grasslands, woods or forest​
• If not enough provinces fill these requirements, then less republics will be created and those that are created will start with more population​
• These republics will have a significantly increased attraction for emigrants of the same settler culture and religion​
• These republics will have slavery allowed and very difficult to ban​

Options :​

• Damn [name of the settler culture] !​
• Let’s follow [name of the republic]’s trials and tribulations in [province in which the republic will appear] (there would be several replicas of this second option for each of the republics created)​
  • player swaps to [name of the republic]​

 

[Salemcolt]

Complexity has grown I see. I love language is now part of the system.

Also, nice, I love these particular divisions got implemented. Though I wonder if the common language of the two dialects being 'Portuguese' is really something that would satisfy Galician players.

View attachment 1212476

Finally,
View attachment 1212478
Implying Johan is soon to change name. Make your bets to what, people.

As Galician myself, i honestly don't mind, i will be honest and something like Galaicoportugues will be some much better. I know is separated on the dialects , but i think( i may be wrong) that a this moment where not so much difference, and i think that wasn't portuguese as we know now, or Galician.

 

[L0rd]

Languages should have an impact on diplomacy costs. Its way easier to sign a contract with somebody, who shares your language. This shouid be the gameplay-impact for dialacts. Give a big upkeep reduction for same dialact and a small one for Same Language Familiy. Maybe even on Diplomat travel time. This of course fokuses on the Court Language.
Another impact should exist, if you have armies of different languages fighting together, they should get a debuff. Maybe include this even in the conscription, by making monolangual armies more effizient.

 

[Mr. Overextension]

Show us New Guinea.

(on a more serious note though I feel like chinese and "Italian" are a wee too unified by this time as languages, consider dividing them)

 

[Salemcolt]

Love the languages and dialect, cannot wait to see how this play. On the feedback, I'm happy to the portuguese language within Galicia too, but to be honest i think something like Galaicoportugues will be more adequate,as a that time neither of both language change so much and both came for the same (Galaicoportugues), neither Galician neither Portuguese. But i understand this could be me being Galician and some roots of patriotism(thing that we want to avoid incorportate on the game) talking.

Either way! Great idea and love the addition on Languages.

 

[SaintDaveUK]

Will some countries be better at things such as navy, trade, cavalry, etc. through some mechanism? Or does the way they are configured at the start make them organically better (geography, population size, existing buildings, market location, diplomatic status, etc.)?

Usually it is organic, the many systems are designed to naturally develop these distinctions through interacting with each other in an emergent manner. Some countries get pieces of historical flavour though, such as unique advances, reforms, or events to help with their expected narrative, but they are usually mild and it's a long way from railroading the playthroughs.

 

[Fialove_koralky]

OMG Its sooo fantastic system for me linguist️️️️️️

By the way, Does Imperator: Tinto have some types of differentiation: creole, pidgin, some new cultures(e.g. Haiti, Mexico, American, Quebec, etc), and some new languages(e.g. Afrikaans, Brasil Portuguese, lots of pacific polinesian, etc)?

 

[RedMedal001]

Currently no. Interested to hear opinions of how that could work though.

How is new world colonial cultures being handled at the moment?

1. Will they be their own cultures or be grouped together with their metropolis cultures (ex: Brazilians existing or "Braziliand" being represented by Portuguese culture or a different dialect)

2. If they exist as their own cultures, will they be monolithic (ex: Brazilians being just ine culture, as opposed of having "Nordestinos, Sulistas, Sudestinos, Nortistas, etc)

3. If colonial cultures exist, will they be dynamic? (Ex: French in Quebec forms Quebecois, Spanish in Mexico forms Mexican, Portuguese in Brazil forms Brazilian, BUT in a situation where the Netherlands settles in Brazil as they did historically but they actually manage to stay in there, would a colonial culture for these "netherlands brazilian" exist?)

While the colonial movements of independence in the Americas was a consequence of many factors, the colonial culture becoming something independent of their metropolitan one was a important part of it as well.

 

[EuropeChef]

No, Dutch counts as the dialect of German spoken by Low Franconian culture.

Why did you choose the term German? Using German feels like its referring to modern Standard German, and that feels diminishing to the other languages in my opinion. Would it not be better to split 'German' and use Niederdeutsch or something for Dutch and Low Saxon/German and use Oberdeutsch or something for High and Central German? This split would make more sense in context of the High German consonant shift. If you want to keep it together as 1 group for gameplay or other reasons, then in my opinion it would make more sense to choose a more neutral term, seeing as 'German' is now associated with modern Standard German.

 

[Metz]

Naming is cosmetic to me, it doesn't affect gameplay

Will the game synchronize names from different cultures if for example a Henri of France becomes king of England, so he would be Henry (or Henri III) of England instead of Henri I of England? Or a John/Johan/Jan/Juan becomes John I in Russia when he should be Ivan II? For personal unions, will you see both regnal numbers such as James I in England while Being James VI in Scotland?

 

[mekhaanempire]

Firstly, it look great, I like especially idea with many culture group for one culture merged different culture differently, very powerful mechanic.

I have one question:
Will level of acceptance affect culture conversion, if so, how?

 

[SaintDaveUK]

Will the game synchronize names from different cultures if for example a Henri of France becomes king of England, so he would be Henry (or Henri III) of England instead of Henri I of England? Or a John becomes John I in Russia when he should be Ivan II?

Yes. The John's name in the database is actually name_john and Russia will compare against their previous name_john rulers (Ivans) when choosing which regnal number to give him.

The spelling of the character's display name is then selected by their culture's language or dialect like this:

 name_john: "John"
 name_john.catalan_dialect: "Joan"
 name_john.east_slavic_language: "Ivan"
 name_john.scandinavian_language: "Johan"
 name_john.spanish_language: "Juan"