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Tinto Talks #4 - March 20th, 2024

Welcome to the fourth iteration of Tinto Talks!

Today we’ll give you an overview of the different mechanics of the Government part of the game. There will be development diaries going into much more detail for these later on.

First of all, we have 5 different government types in the game, which determines a fair bit of what type of mechanics you get access to. As an example, a Republic does not have access to royal marriages, and a Steppe Horde has a different view on how war, peace and conquest works compared to other types of countries.

  • Monarchy, which uses Legitimacy
  • Republic, which uses Republican Tradition
  • Theocracy, which uses Devotion
  • Steppe Horde, which Horde Unity
  • Tribe, which uses Tribal Cohesion

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An illustration from our game..

These, together with country rank, government reform, and local flavor gives countries names like “Crown of Aragon,” “Kingdom of Sweden,” “Principality of Wales.” Not all countries are countries that are based on owning locations on a map though; more on that in later development diaries.

Each country also has a ruler, or they may be in a regency, if there are no possible adult heirs.

One of the most defining parts of the government of a country in Project Caesar is the Estates mechanic. This has been one of the core parts of the game, with a full connection between the population and the estates. Keeping the estates satisfied while keeping their powers low is an important part of the gameplay loop. In this game, the Estates are also active entities and will do things on their own if they get enough power.

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Two government reforms, one culture specific and one government specific.

As time passes, different government reforms and reform-slots will be available. They can also be based on tag, culture or religion.

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These are the two available possibilities in the Law 'Language of Pleading' for the country I tested.

Something that is different from a reform is what we call a Law. A Law can have several different policies you can pick from, and several laws have unique policies only available to certain tags, religions, cultures, government types or other factors.

There are some drawbacks to adding new reforms or policies though, as it takes a few years for it to have full effect, depending on your country's administrative efficiency. (Yes, it's a name for something else in another game, but it fits here.)

Regularly, if your government allows it, you can call in a Parliament. If you don’t do it often enough the estates will start to get irritated, but each parliament has issues that need to be resolved, and the estates will have agendas they want done for their support. Of course, you also have options to push through what you want from a parliament, if you are willing to accept the demands of the estate, like changing a particular law.

Another part of the government is the cabinet, which also grows in size as you become more advanced, allowing you to do more things. This is something that can be viewed as a hybrid between EU4 Advisors and the CK2 council actions.

Some of you may remember the domestic policies from EU2 and EU3. In Project Caesar we are bringing the idea back in the form of Societal Values. There are seven that we took from these games, one that was split in two, and we added four new ones, bringing the total to 13 different Societal Values. Societal Values are primarily affected by what other actions you do, like what policies you pick in a law, or what reforms you pick. As with so many other things in our game, this is not an instant action, but a gradual change over time.

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oh look, its eu3!

Next week, we will go into much more detail about estates and how they work.
 
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Finally no mana points(which never made any sense imho), I really hope Stability mechanic will have some serious revamp as well, tied to such things as devastation/prosperity, peace/war and prolly some estate mechanics as well. Also I wonder how deep the economic system shall be, hopefully we will have overall more control over the economic policies, taxation, etc.
Rebels about to enforce demands
Debt won't be paid back for generations
Tens of thousands dead in a pointless war that's turning against my favour


But I spent a bunch of paper points so my country is 100% totally stable!
 
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As a person from Darende, I must say that I am very happy to finally have the Darende region in a paradox game. Now I can make Darende my capital and establish a tall state in Anatolia.
 
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no. there will very likely be another type and style of mission trees.
This has me extremely worried,i play these games for the roleplay aspect of each nation having goals and beeing unique,i dont want a game where playing Brandenburg and Saxony is the exact same with the difference beeing in mechanics or how hard it is to form germany. Mods like Anbennar,Europa Expanded and Ante Bellum are great exactly because how much effort they make into each country beeing unique with its own goals and objectives.

Tho im probably in the minority of players idk i like playing Hoi4 and Eu4 (Wich are the main ones i play) as roleplay games where i can enjoy the fantasy of building up this nation and helping it go trough its history and struggles and end up in a satisfying place and i think having clear objectives is what makes the games enjoyable.

Hopefully it still keeps the flavor and objective of the MTs without adding too much sandboxing or genericness to it. I know some people like playing EU4 like a math game to get as much number stacking as possible but i hope PDX still remembers that many people also like the unique aspects and aspirations of each nation.
 
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True. Felt the same. I can’t speak for the majority of players in and one or the other direction, but in my opinion
- once mission trees got introduced, they created a huge unbalance between nations who had detailed ones (with lots of perma claims) and nations who had not
- DLCs became almost required for nations who got a mission tree upgrade. They were too disadvantaged without.
It also created an incentive to develop more mission tree DLCs, time which could have otherwise been dedicated to adding or developing existing mechanics
- they created a lot of railroading. I always think about how Austria gets lots of PU claims on nations, who could have historically turned otherwise. Or Spain on Milan / burgundy / the lowlands, even if they had not acquired marriages through game mechanics
- they were presented in a really unfriendly manner. Having to scroll down 10 pages to read a small caption supposed to give you some context, only to come back and click to get your reward. Let’s be honest, how many players read the whole caption VS how many read only the benefits ?
I believe events get a much better done job in terms of graphical presentation of the context.

Finally, the most important to me. The game is designed to represent a 4 century long alternate scenario. After all, it’s a game about creating your own narrative. A lot can differ in 400 years, muscovy might lose to Novgorod or Poland, France can lose the Hundred Years’ War, Ming can explode, a restored Mongolia can drastically alter the trade routes from the south seas back to the Silk Road, a landlocked country can become maritime or vice versa…
Mission trees, by their static definition, although they can to some extent anticipate a few alternate branches, were not able to react to these changes.
I disagree. Many starting tags in Imperator: Rome are bland and all game play feels the same since they don't have specific goals, mechanics, flavor, etc. The same is true for tags in EU4 that had generic missions. If mission trees are completely trashed what would make the tags different, what would give each nation a different feel or play style, really nothing. The current mission tree system isn't ideal, and completing them makes the player unstoppable, these are issues, but reworking them somehow is better than completely trashing them.
 
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One thing, from the picture it seems there is a province named "Sanliurfa" which is unhistorical since "Urfa" got the title "Sanli" (Glorious) after the Turkish War of Independence, so it would be nice to fix that. Same thing goes for "Gaziantep" ("Gazi" is more or less the Turkish word for "veteran") if it exists, it should probably be named "Ayntab", same as it is in EU4.
 
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So detailed map made me happy and scary in same time. I hate so much micro...ich hope they have a good salution for Army move/war/siege and so
 
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I would like characters and royal marriages affecting them, simply to flesh out the personal union mechanics and know in advance possible succession wars. I wouldn't want to interact with them on a daily basis.
Yeah, there's no need to go super overboard with it like CK3 level of dynastic stuff, I personally wouldn't mind that just so you could have kind of absurd scenarios like Henry III of Navarre claiming the French throne since France had agnatic succession and even though he was Henry III of France's 8th cousin or something ridiculously distant like that he ended up winning after the (proclaimed by the life) Charles X kicked the bucket and the Ligue. couldn't agree on a successor.
 
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Europa Universalis IV: Room for Improvement in EU V

While I love Europa Universalis IV, there's always space for growth. Here are some areas I believe EU V could improve upon:

Areas for Improvement:

  • Soundtrack: The music, while functional, could be more captivating. Look at Civilization VI or V for inspiration.
  • Complexity Creep: Adding too many intricate mechanics can make the game feel like a spreadsheet (similar to Victoria 3 with its in-depth goods system). Keep mechanics streamlined while offering depth.
  • Economic System: The current economy lacks complexity. Consider adding features like inflation, interest, multiple currencies, and economic sectors (e.g., agriculture, industry, trade).
  • Military Strategy: Introduce tactics and strategies for individual armies and navies, allowing for more dynamic warfare.
  • Infrastructure: Include elements like road networks connecting cities to improve development and movement.
  • Domestic Politics: Allow for royal marriages to potentially produce heirs and consider introducing a system with multiple heirs, like the Ottoman succession with Shahzadehs and potential throne struggles.
  • Warfare Outcomes: Expand war reparations beyond just territory. Victors could demand manpower, raw materials, slaves, and specific goods.
  • Visuals: While functional, the map graphics could benefit from a resolution bump, aiming for the quality seen in Civilization VI.
  • AI Behavior: The current AI's aggressive tendencies can feel repetitive. Implement more nuanced goals and war agreements that feel more natural.
Balancing Complexity and Accessibility:

Adding features is great, but it's crucial to avoid overwhelming players. EU V should strive for a balance between deep strategy and user-friendliness.

Looking Forward to EU V:

Despite these suggestions, Paradox continues to develop the best grand strategy games. I eagerly await EU V and anticipate years of enjoyment conquering the virtual world.

What are your thoughts?
 
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Will probably not get a reply, but i was wondering if the tick system will be any different in project caesar. in eu4 it was 1 tick per day, this ofc caused issues with a single battle taking months (and with correct reinforcements even years). i also always felt that the winter period was too short (and didnt hurt enough), so expanding in the winter was a no brainer and stopping caused more damage than just continuing.

it also reduced the ability to march at night or do night attacks etc. so i would like to see either a 24h with every hour being 1 tick or at the very least a 4 ticks per day. with this winter would actually feel longer and in the case of a force march through the night the combat effectiveness of the army would be reduced.


would also be rly interested if the army management is a bit more in depth and the unit variety will be more than just inf, cav, art. i would rly like to see special units that example: when sieging can dig mines and cause them to explode resulting in a breached wall or smth similar.
 
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So detailed map made me happy and scary in same time. I hate so much micro...ich hope they have a good salution for Army move/war/siege and so
Didn't Imperator have an option to let the AI handle individual armies? I didn't use it much myself as I enjoy the micro, but from what I can remember it was fairly well received. I would therefore expect a similar option to be implemented in project Caesar.
 
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What are the worst thing in EU4 (needs to be improve!)

1. Music very veery bad, The civ 6&5 songs mazing
2. adding to much function makes game Excel (for example Victor3 too much goods prices etc. hard to follow, I am not a 5 year state plan maker in USSR)
3. Economics also very bad. (needs: at least simple mechanics, inflation effects, interest effects, currency!!!, economic sectors (min 3) etc.)
4. Battle strategy -> There should be tactics and strategies for each army and navy.
5. Infrastrucre-> such as roads connecting cities etc..
6. Domestic Royal mariage. (can have heir from it self )
7. Multiple heirs! -> for ex: ottoman shahzadeh and throne fights
8. raw materials, slaves, goods, etc. as war compensation.
9. The map graphics bit bad! -> more high quality map resolution such as civ 6
10. More clever AI goals -> the current ai attacks bit primitive it should be more natural goals and war agreements.

Question if there are too many nation and more mechanics do we need quantum computer to run ??? (with r5 2600 bit slow in high speed)
Please don't make game an EXCEL table. -> more function while simple.

What are you opinions?
Game is too easy/fast leading to boredom during the age of reformation(only times i ever got to almost the end of a campaign was playing Anbennar because they have some gigantic MTs that really do require you to play for a long time) and optmization(Wich i assume is a given due to engine change) but Caluzewitz or whatever bleeds ram like it was stabbed after a while,the world has less countries but somehow the lag gets only exponentially worse.
 
Please give the Arabian paninsula more love, it sucks in eu4
Najd and Shammar shouldn't exist in 1444, Oman do nothing, Ottomans and Mamluks fight for no reason even though they had good relations all the time but 2 wars, and arab tribal goverment is the worst goverment type
 
any of the Russian states having an equal chance at unifying the region to form Russia
And this is historically accurate. Moscow were almost equal in power to Tver. Suzdal later on even became de-jure head of Russian principalities under yoke for a short time. Ryazan succesfully had conquered from Moscow some border towns. So any of them potentially could succeed in forming Russia. Main Moscow advantage was the right to collect taxes (tribute, yoke) for Golden Horde so Moscow princes had an opportunity to buy some small neighbouring principalities, placate tatar khans and sustain larger army, which help them to beat tatar forces on battlefield in 1380.
 
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Well, if the starting date is the reign of Andronikos III, then they ll not be stronk for long

Also, you missed Philadelphia, the place from where we should retake all of Anatolia :DView attachment 1099102

Um... you literally circled Philadelphia (which is has its Turkish name of Alasehir, probably since not everything has been fully updated to dynamic naming yet) and it has dark borders all around it, showing that it is almost certainly a Byzantine exclave.
 
Old-school sliders returning? Gives me nightmares of having to constantly tweak IC distribution in old HOI. Sliders connected to other sliders. But if they have 'discrete' steps and good UI, it could work.

The very elementary UI seems alright. Just don't fill it up with a lot of nothing or huge 3D portraits please. I know Johan can be trusted to add message settings and such, because he is old-school. Let the form follow the function.. like an architect.

I wouldn't mind 3D portraits which they are probably committed to, if it was just a cropped head or something simple instead of taking up a quarter of the screen. At this point it's probably a lot easier to generate different 3d heads than CK2-style paper doll heads, the parts of which all have to be drawn by artists.. if there are going to be portraits at all, that is, in this unnamed game.
 
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Old-school sliders returning? Gives me nightmares of having to constantly tweak IC distribution in old HOI. Sliders connected to other sliders. But if they have 'discrete' steps and good UI, it could work.
From what I understand, despite everyone, including me, talking about them as "sliders", in reality we won't have a way to directly interact with them. They should be simpy indicators of your country's values and organization that will be changed over time by modifiers, which I'm perfectly alright with as a game design.
 
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This has me extremely worried,i play these games for the roleplay aspect of each nation having goals and beeing unique,i dont want a game where playing Brandenburg and Saxony is the exact same with the difference beeing in mechanics or how hard it is to form germany. Mods like Anbennar,Europa Expanded and Ante Bellum are great exactly because how much effort they make into each country beeing unique with its own goals and objectives.

Tho im probably in the minority of players idk i like playing Hoi4 and Eu4 (Wich are the main ones i play) as roleplay games where i can enjoy the fantasy of building up this nation and helping it go trough its history and struggles and end up in a satisfying place and i think having clear objectives is what makes the games enjoyable.

Hopefully it still keeps the flavor and objective of the MTs without adding too much sandboxing or genericness to it. I know some people like playing EU4 like a math game to get as much number stacking as possible but i hope PDX still remembers that many people also like the unique aspects and aspirations of each nation.
I find it really funny that the mission trees vs sandbox debate is dumbed down to casuals vs metagamers

I love fantasy worldbuilding, I pick lore over usefulness 99% of the time, and that is exactly why I don't like the current mission trees. They constrain you too much, and not doing them is throwing away some insane bonuses. I want to be creative with the direction I take my nation to, not play a campaign pre-determined for me by Paradox. I feel like the Mission Trees don't truly add flavour to a campaign, they just exist to give bonuses and railroad the experience. The greatest "lore building" in EU4 is always the spontaneous one that noone predicted. The random PU that happens to someone. The coalition war that feels like straight out of a history book unfolding before your eyes. The AI underdog story. The massive colonial independence wars. They're the most dynamic and organic parts of the game and simply the coolest ones.

Doesn't help that misisons been the main focus of all the DLC for the past 4 years.

Events? Yes. Culture/Religion based governments, laws, esates, whatever else? Hell yes. But how immersive is a glorified to-do list?
 
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