Tinto Talks #42 - 18th of December 2024

[Merrivale]

One thought picking up on a much earlier comment on the War of the Roses. I hope for historical disasters that the triggers are robust enough that they can both be triggered at "non-historical" times, that is if you meet the underlying conditions you get the disaster regardless of if is "too early" or "too late" and can not happen at all if the right underlying events don't happen. One of the big flaws of EU2 that EU3 jettisoned without ever looking back is people were playing the game file, we knew when historical monarchs and leaders were coming and we structured how we played around it. I wouldn't want to see disasters end up the same way.

 

[trajianus]

oh god the portrait of the king, it hurts my eyes, please tell me thats going to change, it looks like a modern person. just get 2d picture of people who lived during that time, Eu4 advisor pictures looks great, no need for fancy 3d images. please dont go victoria 3 route, if it has to be 3d it needs to look a lot better than this, this is cheap.

something like this looks good,

 

[AHumpierRogue]

For example, can also Bancrupcy become a generic disaster?
Or some kind of other Economy Crisis disaster in case of long-term deficit, high inflation, constant wars etc.

The issue with bankruptcy as a generic disaster is that disasters can only be one at a time. As such, I don't think Bankruptcy should be stealing the spotlight of a country over any possibly more important disasters(Of course, alternatively there could be many disasters at once, which I'd prefer. But alas).

 

[SytroStormlord]

I strongly believe: lack of male heir can be a situation. Especialy if king dies.
Such events often lead to some political struggles involving:
- nobles gaining influence
- neighbouring rulers using interregnum to grab some lands
- civil war between different factions supporting their claimant- war of the roses is just one example of such event.

Although its less of a crissis, more an event, it could lead to some interesting outcomes:
- change of law to allow women inheritance
- becoming a partner in personal union with country ruled by ruler of same dynasty
- switching goverment to elective monarchy or republic/oligarchy
Etc.

From historic events that could become dissasters... not realy see many... apart from Black Death and Volcano's blowing up every now and then leading to local population loss and reduced food production in large area ( like half of Europe etc.).
In terms of Poland-> most where assiciated with politics and a result of such. I strongly believe Piast dynasty shouldn't be forced to die off on Casmir, but of any other of his successors dies without hier, there could be a distaster called: "Fall of Piast Dynasty" which could introduce internal wars between noble factions-> each trying to force their representative on throne, whoever wins takes the throne, but ends up with lots of unrest amongst other nobles... another option of ending that crissis would be to swap into elective monarchy, but resulting in Nobles becoming superstrong and more demanding on each parliament session than usual...

 

[RohenTahir]

Noted, do you have a good ref to follow for circa 1400?

https://static.polityka.pl/_resource/res/path/bc/20/bc208ed5-0026-49c5-9450-330683414b0e_f1400x900

 

[SAmaster]

Europeans had a pretty clear idea of what a monarchy is, and a bank was not a monarchy even if it was hereditary. Fortunately we can model that with succession laws.

I'm assuming you can do something similar to how say Florence was also kind of a 'family run republic'.

 

[SAmaster]

You know on this topic-I think the fall of Constantinople should be a situation. If at the very least to simulate the greek exodus across the mediterranean which helped to spread renaissance ideas and spark interest in the classical era. It could also be done to help simulate the turkish settlement of istanbul, and maybe throw in some flavor events for say remaking the Hagia Sophia into a mosque (Ottomans should get option both for and against, as in Islam turning Churches built before the arrival of Mohammed into a Mosque is a no-no, but the Ottmans assumed the Hagia Sophia wasn't as old as it was). Christian mediterranean nations like Venice, Genoa and Spain should also get events for reduced trade with asia as a result which in turn prompted sea-expeditions for alternate routes to the India. Venice could also get a few events in their greek territories like Crete which became a bastion of Greek culture while the mainland had been dominated by the Ottomans.

 

[mrflagio]

I think that 'Disaster' is the wrong name for the mechanic presented.

It's almost as if Situation is better.

 

[mrflagio]

So about only having one Disaster at a time: you can't simultaneously have a Succession Crisis and a Civil War? A Civil War and Religious Turmoil? A Succession Crisis and Religious Turmoil?

Sorry, but this whole mechanic just seems wrong at this point and I really don't see why it's included when Situations are just bigger and broader.

 

[HighQualityPink]

Will we able to turn off the 3D models?

 

[Batat137]

That would be more like a Situation, TBH, because it impacted several countries, on different continents. We don't have it, though, but I'll bookmark this idea, just in case.

Digging this out, I think the entire inflation crisis in Europe could be several interlocking mechanics, not only a Situation. It was a very important puzzle in the dissolution of the feudal system.

Despite the common misconception, it was not caused by a sudden surge in the amount of silver available. Of course the data isn't perfectly clear on this, but it appears that the New World silver did not stay in Europe, rather it was moved to Ming China that was able to absorb any amount of bulion and had all the possible luxury items to trade for it. European lower classes did not see that influx of silver at all, with XVI century English peasants having to melt down their heirloom silvers to pay taxes.

It can be argued that the driving force behind it was the collapse of the social contract. The war stopped being the exclusive domain of the nobles, paid mostly in agricultural goods by their subjects. It got commercialized, with lowborn armies of mercenaries being paid in silver collected in taxes. Violence started to be denominated in silver and masses had to partake in its circulation.

 

[SAmaster]

Speaking of Inflation- I'm reminded that the Mali mission tree had the ability to create massive inflation in European tags- perhaps this could instead give them a full on inflationary disaster?

Also- thinking about mission trees, a lot of them centered on converting major cities like Rome or Jerusalem. These would probably be better suited as Situations, where say if protestants take rome a catholic league would reform to take it. If a crusader nation takes the Holy Land there could be a situation where the islamic nations gather to retake it. There could be a similar situation for the fall of Consantinople as I mentioned previously as there were several international coalitions to both defend and then retake Constantinople, they just obviously all failed. I could see similar situations for the rise of Christianity in Japan, where Japan could move towards outlawing christianity, embracing it, or just tolerating it. A similar one could play out in China to a lesser extent.

But I do think it'd be fun if certain mission trees have the ability to enforce disasters on your rivals.

 

[xxTesa]

I saw that there will be a disaster for the succession crisis. But this disaster could happen at any time ?

I know that in EU4 we can avoid our country falling into a personal union if we are at war. There is then just a change of dynasty in the worst case.

And will this disaster be able to happen even if we already have a personal union ? This is something that was also blocking in EU4. Keeping a personal union prevented us from being in a union ourselves.

 

[Soter I]

I would argue against leaving so many things as game rules, cosmetics options are fine like Byzantium vs Eastern Roman Empire. but mechanics per-ce seem like would be hard to balance in the future and any way the devs would surely only dedicate attention to the "vanilla" way of playing, I can imagine a situation similar with having to maintain multiple start dates.

The outcome of a disaster is hardly a mechanic itself, we have that kind of game rules in CK3 and works well for most people. Even in HoI4, with historical and non historical campaigns.

There's no way you can balance 500 years of campaign unless it's absolute determinism. Which is ok, for the player who wants historical outcomes, me included.

 

[viola]

@Pavía Looks like someone is doing some copy and paste (which is fine by me really)

View attachment 1232881View attachment 1232882

Straight from the EUIV wiki mmmh... I do wonder what is the true name of Project Caesar

The Court and the Country 2: Edo Drift

 

[Freshplayer]

The thing is, the Red Turbans Rebellion won't necessarily end with the Ming triumphant, as there could be several other outcomes. So a generic disaster fits better there. Also, let's say, if we have a Manchu ('Qing') dynasty becoming Emperor of China, but falling before it happened historically.

Can Jurchen restore the Jin Dynasty (Alcun in Middle Jurchen)? Especially when they failed to conquer southern China.

 

[Freshplayer]

I'm willing to bet the following are disasters:

1. Time of Troubles
2. Nomad Frontier
3. Ottoman Crisis over decentralisation and decline
4. English Civil War
5. Decline of Cahokia
6. Incan Civil War
7. Arrival of diseases in the New World

I assume 7 is a situation because it involved so many countries.

 

[MadWorkEthic]

I'm sure someone's already pointed it out, but there's little/no contemporary evidence that the Lancastrians actually used the red rose emblem; it would be good if that was avoided being used in EU5/PC.

https://richardiii.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/10-133-The-Red-Rose-of-Lancaster.pdf

 

[Druplesnubb]

Europeans had a pretty clear idea of what a monarchy is, and a bank was not a monarchy even if it was hereditary. Fortunately we can model that with succession laws.

Banks aren't monarchies, but they aren't republics either. Maybe a "corporate" government type could be added? It could be used for trade companies as well.

Speaking of succession laws, will Florence turning into a theocracy through its disaster dsiband its elective succession system? From my (admittedly surface level) research on Savonarola, he worked to increase enfranchisement and voting rights in Florence, even creating a new parliament, while in game its seems that he might do the opposite.

 

[coconutboat]

So, which historical events do you think would be best represented by a disaster? Post your suggestions here..

The examples posted by Johan seem to be internal disasters, but if disasters in this Tinto Talks also include political disasters that happened due to a mix of internal and external relations between multiple kingdoms/vassals/families, here are my suggestions copied form Wikipedia:

1357: In the Battle of Bubat, the Sundanese royal family were massacred by the Majapahit army under the order of Gajah Mada. This event led to the death of Sundanese King Lingga Buana and the princess Dyah Pitaloka Citraresmi that committed suicide. (And Battle of Brebes that preceded it)
(can be triggered if the Majapahit king marries a Sundanese princess)

1405: Paregreg war, Majapahit civil war of succession between Wikramawardhana against Wirabhumi. (to 1406)

1674: The Trunajaya rebellion. Followers of the Madurese prince Trunajaya rebelled against the Mataram Sultanate. After initial defeats, Mataram requested help from the VOC in exchange for various concessions. VOC-Mataram forces ultimately defeated the rebellion.

1704-1708: First Javanese War of Succession

1719-1723: Second Javanese War of Succession

9 October-22 November 1740: A massacre of Batavia's ethnic Chinese begins after they are suspected by the VOC of planning a rebellion. Approximately 10,000 are killed and the Chinese quarter is burned

(continuation) 1 February 1741 to early 1743: The Java War, an armed struggle by a joint Chinese and Javanese army against the Dutch East India Company and pro-Dutch Javanese that took place in central and eastern Java. Ending in victory for the Dutch, the war led to the fall of the Sultanate of Mataram and, indirectly, the founding of both the Sunanate of Surakarta and the Sultanate of Yogyakarta.

15 December 1749-February 1757: Third Javanese War of Succession

1803-1837: The Padri War (also called the Minangkabau War) was fought from 1803 until 1837 in West Sumatra, Indonesia between the Padri and the Adat. The Padri were Muslim clerics from Sumatra who wanted to impose Sharia in Minangkabau in West Sumatra, Indonesia. The Adat comprised the Minangkabau nobility and traditional chiefs. They asked for the help of the Dutch, who intervened in 1821 and helped the nobility defeat the Padri faction