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Tinto Talks #44 - 1st of January 2025

Hello Everyone, and Welcome to a new Tinto Talks. This is the Happy Wednesday, where we give you information about our future upcoming top secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

Today we’ll go over all the trade goods we have in the game. Goods that are raw materials may be extracted from RGO operations in the locations that have them present, but many of them also have buildings that can produce their goods at a slightly less efficiency or capacity for when you need access to it.

Produced goods can only be produced from various buildings.

Some goods have a base-production, which is added to each market, scaled by total development of that market.

Some resources require more trade capacity than others to move a resource between markets. Unless specified, the transport cost is 1.

Default prices is the price a goods would have if supply and demand are matching exactly. The price in each market depends on the supply and demand of the goods in that actual market. The price range changes depending on the age, where in Age of Tradition, prices currently range from 50% to 200% of the default price, while in Age of Revolutions the prices range from 20% to 500% of the default price.

Goods are required by pops, units, building inputs, constructions and more. One important aspect is that you actually need the goods, and if the demand is higher than the supply, then buildings or pops in locations further away from the market center will not get the goods they require!


Raw Materials

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Horses


Default Price is 3 and Transport Cost is 2

Horses were domesticated at an unknown point of the Eurasian Steppe around six thousand years ago. Since then, they have been used by people for a wide variety of tasks, although the most important has been waging war. In that sense, the Middle Ages were the Golden Age of cavalry, as it was closely linked to the development of feudal societies.

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Clay
Default Price is 0.25 and it has a base production of 0.02

Clay is a type of soil that has been used by humanity for the production of pottery and ceramics since prehistoric times. Another main use is in construction, in combination with other materials, or in the creation of bricks. Clay tablets were also one of the first writing methods invented, so its impact in the development of civilization is undeniable.

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Sand
Default Price is 0.5 and it has a base production of 0.01

Sand is one of the most common materials on Earth, and its uses are multiple and varied. It has been the most pervasive abrading material used to shape any kind of stone or metal due to it being coarse and rough, as a component of many building materials and as the main material for the production of glass, among many other uses.

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Stone
Default price is 1, it has a transport cost of 5, and a base production of 0.01

Stone has been one of the main building materials of humanity throughout all its history. Stronger and more durable than other options like clay or wood, it was the go-to material for any construction built to last. Buildings from long ago like the Pyramids have reached our times still standing due to the durability of the stone they were made of.

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Coal
Default Price is 2 and has a transport cost of 2

Coal has a long history as a source of fuel, but it is not until the invention and dissemination of the practical steam engine that demand would take off. As the Industrial Revolution swept across Europe, the use and export or import of coal would become a major business and an integral part of a modern economy.

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Iron
Default Price is 3 and has a transport cost of 2

Iron represents not just iron, but other ferrous metals and the production of alloys such as steel. Iron formed the basis of the metallurgical industry and was used extensively in the production of weapons and other military equipment.

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Copper
Default Price is 3 and has a transport cost of 2

Copper was the main component of bronze and was essential in the early production of cannons.

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Gold

Default Price is 10, but the production impacts inflation.

Gold was the basis of many formal currencies in Europe. The great gold mines of Central and South America would end the great bullion crisis that had gripped Europe in the previous century. However, unwise usage of this great wealth could lead to inflation and ruin.

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Silver
Default Price is 8, but the production impacts inflation.

Silver was one of the first metals used as money and the most successful along with gold. Central Europe became the center of silver production during the Middle Ages, although the Columbian Exchange shifted the focus of world production to the Americas, making it the main production center of a newborn global network since the 16th century.


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Tin
Default Price is 2

Tin was used extensively for the first time in metallurgy as part of the alloy to obtain bronze 5000 years ago. Later it has been widely used to coat other metals and alloys, such as iron, lead or steel, to prevent corrosion, as well as to make pewter, very common in tableware.

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Lead
Default Price is 2

Lead has been obtained since ancient times as a by-product of silver extraction by burning galena. Lead was then used in a wide range of household and manufactured products, especially by the Romans, whose levels of lead production were not reached until the Industrial Revolution. In the Modern Age, it became the main material for making bullets for firearms.

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Silk

Default Price is 4

The finest of all fabrics of the east was the silk produced in India, China, and East Asia. While less iconic than spices, the profits from silk and finely woven cotton cloth would in fact soon dwarf those of the spice trade for the European East India Companies. Due to increasing demand attempts were also made to produce the material locally in mercantilist Europe, with very varied degrees of success.

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Dyes
Default Price is 4 and transport cost is 0.5

For as long as textiles have been woven there has been a market for fine dyes. During the late Middle Ages expensive dyes such as indigo would be worth a fortune due to how distant the source in India was. As the world opened up dyes became easier to get hold of, both through the possibilities to produce them in America and the greater accessibility of the Indian market. Nonetheless, dyes remained rare and in the early 19th century; as the dye plantations in India fell into European hands, a veritable gold rush ensued.

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Incense

Default Price is 2.5 and transport cost is 0.5

To spread smoke and fragrance through the burning of materials has been common in ceremonial practices for centuries. Frankincense, agarwood, sandalwood, myrrh, and other goods suited for this use can be found in few places and their diffusion was an integral part in the formation of trade networks such as the Silk Road or the fittingly named Incense Route.

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Tea

Default Price is 3

Tea was an important luxury drink in China, India, and South-East Asia. It was often used in religious or social rituals. The English popularized tea in Europe. Never considered as noble a drink as coffee, it still produced large profit merely from the fact that the world supply was low.

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Cocoa

Default Price is 4

Cocoa was used as a stimulant by the Aztec, Incan, and Indian rulers since the early medieval times. It was popularized in Europe in the early 16th century when the Spaniards imported it from its American colonies. Cocoa became a luxury enjoyed by the rich.

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Coffee

Default Price is 3

Coffee was discovered in the northeast region of Ethiopia and coffee cultivation first took place in southern Arabia. From the Middle East, coffee spread to Italy in the 17th century and was then introduced to the rest of Europe. Coffee became more widely accepted after it was deemed a Christian beverage by Pope Clement VIII in 1600, despite appeals to ban the 'Muslim drink'.

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Fiber Crops

Default Price is 2

Many different fibrous crops are used all around the world to craft a multitude of products such as sails, ropes, fishing nets, and clothes. Beyond their use to produce coarse textiles, however, many are also used as a core part of the production of finer textiles, used in ceremonies, households, and elsewhere. Some examples are hemp, flax, jute, and sisal.

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Ivory
Default Price is 4

Ivory was one of the main exports of Africa apart from slaves. It was highly sought after by Europeans for use in various manufactured goods such as cutlery, gifts, small pieces of art, furniture, etc.

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Fur
Default Price is 2

Furs were one of the basic elements of high quality and warm clothing. Skins from all kinds of animals were supplied initially from Russia but more and more from North America where beavers would be the prize of choice at least till the late middle 18th century.

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Lumber
Default Price is 1 and the base production is 0.005

Lumber has been one of the main building materials for humanity throughout all its history. Although less durable than stone, it is more easily accessible have made it a staple of any building in all places of the world. Even structures designed to be resistant like castles and fortifications have also their versions made out of wood rather than stone.

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Salt

Default Price is 3

Salt is essential for human life. In addition, it was the most common means to preserve food for the long winter months. It was either mineral, brought from mines in Central Europe, or natural, from salt wetlands production via evaporation along sunny coastlines.

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Medicaments
Default Price is 1 and transport cost is 0.5

A wide variety of plants and animal products have been used throughout history to treat all kinds of illnesses, due to their medicinal properties or supposition thereof. Some were more based on actual properties than others, while in some cases it was more a matter of belief in their effectiveness.

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Gems
Default Price is 4 and transport cost is 0.5

Since the earliest times, stones such as rubies, sapphires, diamonds, emeralds, jade, or pearls, have been used in jewelry and ceremonial attire. For centuries the only source of diamonds in the world were the fabled mines at Golconda. While not all precious stones are as rare, they are all highly sought-after commodities.


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Pearls
Default Price is 4

Pearls are produced inside different kinds of shelled mollusks. The resulting product is a hard glistening object, ideally round but can take many shapes. They have been appreciated for their beauty and used like gemstones as ornaments all over the world through all human history.

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Amber
Default Price is 4

Amber is a valuable good made from fossilized resin that was primarily used in the manufacture of jewelry and ornaments. Its main source has been depots on the Prussian coast, mentioned for the first time in a 12th-century document.

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Saltpeter
Default Price is 2

Saltpeter has been known since antiquity, and its uses have been varied such as a fertilizer or as salt for meat processing. However, it was the invention of gunpowder and firearms during the Middle Ages that really raised its importance, as it is one of the main components of it, together with charcoal and sulfur. Mined in great quantities around the world, this metal will go on to acquire an infamous reputation.

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Alum
Default Price is 3

Alum is an essential ingredient in dye-making as well as specializing in the tanning process. Seeing use in a variety of artistic and craft contexts, it is primarily utilized in painting and illuminating processes. Originating mostly from the Chad region, it was traded in the markets of the entire Islamic world, but in the Late Middle Ages, other sources started to be exploited in Europe.

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Spices
Default Price is 6 and the transport cost is 0.25

Spices have been known in Europe since ancient times, mostly for their medicinal value, and for their ability to improve the taste of food. Pepper, ginger, nutmeg, chili, cinnamon, etc. came partly from East Africa but mostly from India, China, and the Spice Islands (current Indonesia), to be traded in Alexandria or the other terminals of the great caravan roads. The European desire for cheaper and more direct supply constituted the main motivation for the very first eastbound sea voyages of discoveries for Portugal.

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Wine
Default Price is 2

Wines have been produced since time immemorial in the southern parts of Europe. It still constituted an essential element of the everyday diet, except maybe in the Muslim world. Wine was not considered a luxury product but probably served as a welcome relief for hundreds to an otherwise dull diet.

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Elephants
Default Price is 10

Elephants have been used in warfare since ancient times in India, South East Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa. The use of elephantry persisted in some of these regions into the Middle Ages, although the advent of gunpowder warfare in the Modern Age outpaced its usefulness in battle.

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Marble
Default Price is 5

Marble has been used in sculptures and constructions since Antiquity, being considered a type of luxurious material due to its appearance and ductility. Some of the best works of art made by Renaissance and Baroque artists, such as Michelangelo or Bernini, are made of marble.

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Mercury
Default Price is 3

Mercury is used for medicine, but will also be of great importance to refine gold and silver ores of lesser qualities in order to make them profitable.

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Cotton
Default Price is 3

Cotton originated from Central Asia but was not widely used in Europe until it was introduced to the American colonies and used as a cheap but good complement or substitute for wool in the clothing industry of the late 18th century

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Sugar
Default Price is 3

Sugar was used not only as a sweetener but also for food preservation. The sugar cane was the only known means of obtaining sugar at this time and had been grown initially in some Mediterranean islands. But the labor-intensive plantation system in America, especially in the Caribbean islands, would soon move the major production sources overseas.

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Tobacco
Default Price is 3

Tobacco was unknown in Europe until brought from Americans in the late 16th century. It quickly became a fashion for the upper classes who could afford it and ensured the fast and profitable economic growth of the British colonies in North America, as well as in Portuguese Brazil.



Food

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Wool
Default Price is 2.5 and produces 5 food per unit produced.

Wool came mostly from sheep that grazed in the more marginal lands not suited to other forms of agriculture. Prior to the use of cotton, it was the major raw material for clothing.

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Wild Game
Default Price is 1 and produces 2.5 food per unit produced.

Wild game is the source of food and nutrition for local populations, especially in sparsely populated rural communities. The hunt of wild animals such as elk, deer, boars and more, are an important cornerstone of a society due to the fact that the aforementioned animals contribute leather, bones, entrails and nutrition to the populace.

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Fish
Default Price is 1 and produces 5 food per unit produced.

Fish was one of the most basic foods for the European population in this age, as meat was more than a luxury for the great majority. Fishermen also provided the basic recruiting pool of the merchant and military navies of most nations.

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Wheat
Default Price is 1 and produces 8 food per unit produced.

Wheat represents the vegetable foodstuff that was the staple diet for humans and animals. Lack of it would always lead to revolts and riots. Other cereals and vegetable foodstuffs would later be augmented by tomatoes, corn, and even potatoes from America offering a wider choice both in food and agricultural production varieties.

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Soybeans
Default Price is 1 and produces 6 food per unit produced.

Soybeans are a type of legume that have been a staple crop in East Asia for almost ten thousand years. Their uses are quite versatile, as not only can they be eaten by themselves, but also milk can be extracted from them, which can also be further processed into tofu. Soybeans can also be fermented into products such as soy sauce and miso.

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Maize
Default Price is 1 and produces 8 food per unit produced.

A cultivated plant that was originally domesticated in Mexico, thousands of years ago, maize was traded between the new and the old world with the arrival of the Europeans in the 15th century. Due to its enduring nature as well as its higher dietary value, maize is destined to become a worldwide commodity.

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Rice
Default Price is 1 and produces 10 food per unit produced.

Rice is a type of grain that has been the staple food for Asia since its domestication more than ten thousand years ago. It was also independently domesticated in Africa more than three thousand years ago, and it has also been an important food source there ever since. It was brought to Europe through trade with Asia as far back as Classical Antiquity, although it did not manage to supersede other types of grain there.

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Sturdy Grains
Default Price is 1 and produces 5 food per unit produced.

Sturdy Grains are different kinds of cereal grasses that have been domesticated in many parts of the World at different points in time ever since the Neolithic. Their greater resistance to poor quality soils and dry conditions have made them into a more important food source in semi-arid regions compared to other kinds of grain.

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Legumes
Default Price is 1 and produces 5 food per unit produced.

Various civilizations across history have utilized legumes as a substantial source of nutrition for thousands of years. Much like maize, Europeans were introduced to new types of them with their eventual arrival on the shores of the New World. Legumes were not only filling but also cheap to produce and move on ships.

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Potato
Default Price is 1 and produces 8 food per unit produced.

The potato is a starchy tuber domesticated around Lake Titicaca by the native people of the Andes. It helped the rise of the Andean civilizations thanks to its hardiness and high caloric density. After the Columbian exchange, it spread all around the globe and by 1750 it was a staple food in Europe facilitating its 19th-century population boom.

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Livestock
Default Price is 1.5 and produces 8 food per unit produced.

Since the dawn of history, the care for domesticated animals has been one of the main occupations of humanity. Livestock includes everything from cows and horses in rich agricultural areas to the herds of pastoralists in the great plains and deserts of the world.

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Olives
Default Price is 1 and produces 4 food per unit produced.

Olives are harvested from the trees of the same name, which have been cultivated around the Mediterranean Sea for thousands of years. They are highly appreciated in gastronomy, especially the olive oil that is used to cook and dress a wide range of foods in Mediterranean cuisine.

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Dates
Default Price is 1 and produces 4 food per unit produced.

Dates are a type of fruit harvested from date palm trees, which grow in semi-arid, but fertile terrains throughout the Middle East and North Africa. Dates are widely used in the different cuisines of these regions.

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Fruit
Default Price is 1 and produces 4 food per unit produced.

Fruits cover a wide range of products found on trees such as citrus, bitter and sweet oranges, apples and more. For many, these products would be unattainable and a source of nutrition only for the elites. Nearly every region across the world is home to a different kind of fruit and the advent of global trade would go on to introduce different populations to various new fruits.


Produced Goods

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Tar
Default Price is 2

Originally propped up as a cash crop, tar is a valuable ingredient of the ship-building business. Its appearance, that of a thick black liquid, is due to the aggressive distillation process that is required for its production. Tar is widely used as a seal for ship hulls and as a cheap way to waterproof sails.

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Porcelain
Default Price is 3 and the transport cost is 0.5

Porcelain is a type of ceramics characterized by its strength and translucence due to the vitrification of the materials caused by high temperatures. It was developed in China over a period of time starting more than three thousand years ago, with proper porcelain being developed already almost two thousand years ago, and from there, it eventually spread to all over the world as a highly sought-after commodity.

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Naval Supplies
Default Price is 3

Naval Supplies represent everything needed in ship construction, from basic wood to tar, ropes, linen, sails, and various other materials. The Baltic was initially the main supplier until North America became an alternate source of supply in the early 18th century. Colonial expansion into America was in part to secure supplies of such vital goods.

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Firearms
Default Price is 3

The conception and arrival of guns changed the dynamic of battlefields. Wars waged across Asia and Europe will now be subject to cultivating, importing and harnessing the potency of gunpowder. Guns have become a natural evolution of warfare and an essential part of protecting the sovereignty of domains across the earth.

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Cannons
Default Price is 4 and transport cost is 1.5

Although siege weapons have existed since antiquity, the discovery of gunpowder has given rise to some weapons with a potentially destructive power that has never been seen before. The ability to throw bigger projectiles at greater speed and distances than ever before will make all but the sturdiest of fortifications quickly fall before them, without mentioning the effect those projectiles can have when fired towards armies themselves.

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Weaponry
Default Price is 3

Various weapons such as swords, pikes, and bows make up the core weaponry of every army. The techniques behind their creation are an art refined throughout the ages. Despite that and regardless of how different the era may be, weaponry will always be a vital instrument to protect one's independence.

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Glass
Default Price is 2 and transport cost is 0.5

Glass has been valued for centuries as a useful material for art, architecture, or simply the crafting of vessels for daily use. Eventually, as glassmaking techniques improved, glass would also become crucial to the scientific field of optics, with glass lenses being used in the fabrication of spectacles, telescopes, and a plethora of other devices with wide-ranging applications from maritime navigation to the natural sciences.

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Steel
Default Price is 5 and transport cost is 2

Steel is widely used for the crafting of weaponry and guns. Various of its qualities are used for different weapons, blunt steel for axes and high-quality steel for swords and knives. As such, steel is also employed as the main metal for the forging of equipment and tools.

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Cloth
Default Price is 3

Cloth represents the various fabrics and clothing made from wool and linen. Later cotton, imported from India and the Americas, became a major material for cloth.

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Fine Cloth
Default Price is 6

Fine clothing was traditionally a marker of status for the elites and wealthy classes. Textiles such as damasks, muslins, or brocades were marketed and replicated throughout the world as a very profitable business in the Middle and Modern Ages.

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Liquor
Default Price is 2.5

Liquor is an alcoholic beverage produced by distillation of very different types of products of plant origin. Distillation is done to increase the alcohol by volume. Popular liquors distilled and consumed around the world were gin, rum, whisky, vodka, tequila, or shōchū.

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Beer
Default Price is 2

Beer has been a pillar of gastronomy since it was first brewed in the Neolithic. It became a widespread drink in the Middle Ages, and was the object of the oldest food-quality regulation still in use, the Bavarian 'Reinheitsgebot'.

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Slaves
Default Price is 3

Slaves had been a trading commodity since Antiquity, but demand increased sharply in the late 16th century when Slaves offered one of the cheapest sources of labor for European plantations in the Americas.

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Paper
Default Price is 2

Paper is a necessity for all types of advanced accounting, administration, and diffusion of knowledge. The process of its production was originally devised in China and then slowly made its way to all corners of the Old World. Far superior to other types of writing materials such as parchment, the large-scale production of paper requires a specialized set of skills and equipment, making it a rare and sought after commodity.

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Books
Default Price is 5

Books have been one of the main custodians of human knowledge since writing was invented thousands of years ago. They were usually made of leather parchment, paper, and other plant fibers. The invention and spread of movable type printing systems in the Middle Ages made books much more widespread and accessible to the population.

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Jewelry
Default Price is 5 and transport cost is 0.5

Jewelry represents a set of regalia or ornaments that are crafted by skilled smiths using jewels and precious stones. Their value is often associated with high social standing and even royalty.

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Leather
Default Price is 3

One of humanity's earliest discoveries, leather is largely used in the manufacturing of clothes, footwear, and decoration. Its success is largely attributed to its high level of comfort and durability, eventually becoming the choice material for the making of dinner-related furniture, due to leather being easy to maintain while being resistant to absorbing food odor.

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Tools
Default Price is 3

The production of tools is the main factor that allowed human society to flourish. From the more simple and primitive stone tools to the most advanced and precise implements developed through the use of metallurgy, they allow the further creation of equipment and weapons.


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Masonry
Default Price is 1

Construction techniques come in all shapes and sizes. The ability to fabricate smaller pieces with a regular size and shape to use in construction greatly increases not only the efficiency in which buildings can be constructed but also their durability once built.


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Lacquerware
Default Price is 5

Lacquerware was developed in China and Japan as far back as the Neolithic period, more than ten thousand years ago, and consists in covering products made of wood or metal with a decorative layer of lacquer, a product extracted from resin and wax. This lacquer layer can then be further decorated with paintings, carvings or dustings of gold or silver making it into a luxurious good.

Stay Tuned, as next week we'll delve into the effects of all vegetations, topography and climate.
 
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ok I am sorry I am severely blind. I didn't notice it down at the end

still, shouldn't leather and fur have about the same price?
no. you can make leather out of essentially any animal hide. But quality furs are only found in some animals and usually animals that aren't domesticated with the exception of something like rabbits or alpaca. So people either need to go out and hunt or trap these animals they usually cant be farmed. Also most prized furs come from animals in cold climates making it harder to hunt and trap them. Furs should be considerable more expensive than leather. Animals like mink, wolf, bear, beaver and foxes all are pretty good at keeping their distance from people and in the case of bears and wolves prior to firearms were pretty dangerous to hunt.
 
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Variety of spices did not add anything, but a minor performance impact.
How is that different to the existence of Amber, Gems, and Pearls? What functional difference do they serve that is not also a justification for splitting spices and also not splitting out obsidian? Especially pearls being a separate good from gems seems odd in this context since they have the same price. I do like that they are different for flavor reasons, but mechanically they look they same. Even the description for gems lists pearls as an example. I could see adding a bit of food production to pearls as a differentiator but as is I'd rather replace them with gems and get a distinct obsidian good.
 
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People aren't grasping how the trade system actually is going to work in this game, and fixating on elements that are not important such as the different kinds of spices.

There really isn't a need for different spice groups - Because the game has supply and demand. The reason the spice trade is going to exist is simply because there's price fluctuation, and areas that are producing an abundance of one type of good are going to have a shortage of another type of good.

Even if there is theoretically limited spice production in Europe, it isn't going to be enough to cover the entirety of the continent's needs. The ability to move goods between markets means that enterprising merchant nations will be able to take advantage of price differentials between markets.

Say that France has a need for 200 units of spice, and produces 20 units of spice in some province within the nation after France invests in the production of it.

Well, the East Indies could have a need for 200 units of spice while producing 1000 - Which means there's plenty of room for Portugal to buy a portion of those spices in that market, then bring them back to Europe for a tidy profit.

If we were to split the types of spice, the effect would ultimately be the same: There would be certain spices in low supply which then receive trade from other markets. The importance is in the mechanic of supply and demand itself, which defines how the game feels moreso than splitting up spices to such a granular level.

An understanding of the game's mechanics as presented is necessary before levying critique about the necessity for different spice groups - Because it isn't mechanically necessary, as Johan has told us, and doesn't make a big difference in gameplay because supply and demand already exist within the game's mechanics, naturally incentivizing global trade in rare goods such as spices.

If I had to guess, the reason potential price fluctuation range increases by age is because playtests probably revealed that nations focusing on the exact trade strategy I'm describing were getting filthy, obscenely rich WAY too early to the point where it unbalanced the game.
I think the problem people have with one spice good is the following:


lets use your example and say France has a need for 200 units and produces 20 units.

India needs 200 units and produces 1000 units.

Indonesia nees 200 units and produces 800 units.

now every one would just import spices from India since the spices are cheaper there, wich would eliminate the incentive to go to Indonesia.
 
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Why lead, tin, copper are all separate ores, but the entire spice trade is merged into one spice?
Lead, tin and copper all have different uses, while spices all only have one use.

I am surprised that the prices for goods concentrated in east Asia aren't somewhat higher, though. European demand for them was perhaps the strongest driver of exploration, colonization, and overseas conquest. Will there be historical events that alter global prices like there are in EU4?
I don't see the logic behind this at all. Historical European demand should have nothing to do with base price around the world, since demand in each market will modify the base price in the game.
Base price should mostly depend on how valuable a good is compared to its volume/weight.

Do all gold and silver RGOs need mercury or are they somehow graded for ore quality?
RGOs do not use input goods, so I don't understand what mercury is actually used for in the game. The vast majority of mercury that was consumed during the time period was used for production of gold and if those mines don't use it, then there's no point to having mercury in the game.

While honey would be cool, I do not think it is really necessary to add. It was produced almost everywhere and thus honeytrade was almost nonexistent untill modern times.
Definitely not. Honey is consistently mentioned as one of the major trade goods of Eastern Europe and other forested areas in the time period. Look at sources for trade in the Hansa and you'll find that honey came from the Baltic and Russia. Look at sources for Mediterranean trade and you'll find that honey came from Hungary.
 
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really hoping you add an oil trade good. Of course not a crude oil good but whale oil. The whale industry was super influential in places like the north sea and new England and really deserve to be represented. Whales could proved oil, food and incense(to represent the Ambergris).
 
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I thought about it too, but it's a bit dangerous approach. If they have just a few locations producing wax for the whole Europe, then some kind of weird occupation, embargo, market distribution can instantly cut half of Europe from wax. I think this should be more balanced.

But what can be implemented is having Bee Yards as a rural-only production building that can be built everywhere in the allowed climate and terrain, at least in Europe. They would have wax and honey as production method. And than maybe a few locations having them as the raw good would be OK.
Great idea!
 
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I agree with previous mentions of whales for whale oil and ambergris, it could even lump in general products from deep sea whaling and northern harvesting of blubber etc. Oil for lamps was one of the most sought after goods during this period, and with ambergris in perfumes, it is a group of resources that should certainly have a place in the game. I understand the issue with honey/beeswax, though I feel that it adds, if anything, flavor to locations that historically did focus on honey production. Moreover, wax is so important that again it makes for a more complete global market. Obsidian is almost completely flavor based, but I struggle to see how it would overly complicate the game as a variant of a luxury trade good.

Are dogs and the breeding of both luxury and working dogs included in livestock I wonder?

What I fee most strongly about, however, is the division of spices. While I understand it might come with a performance hit, it simply adds 3 dimensions to the global market where it would be stale otherwise. It adds so much to a mercantile campaign, and adds reasons to go east as a European power. I have no idea whether they can be lumped into a similar overall group, such as general spices being a production good while there is a litany of spices as raw materials, and then having, say, 2 or 3 different spices would allow enhanced production of the general finished good, or anything along those lines would work. But either way, the timeline of EU was dictated by the spice trade, it cannot be something produced in Europe or even Africa as a generic good.
 
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Some comments on the flavor text:
View attachment 1237729
Copper
Default Price is 3 and has a transport cost of 2

Copper was the main component of bronze and was essential in the early production of cannons.
Copper was essential for production of cannons throughout the entire time period of the game. Most field cannons were made of bronze alloys even in the Napoleonic Wars, while iron was more practical for cannons that didn't have to be moved, i.e. in fortifications and ships. This only changed with the widespread adoption of steel cannons in the second half of the 19th century.
View attachment 1237735
Silk

Default Price is 4

The finest of all fabrics of the east was the silk produced in India, China, and East Asia. While less iconic than spices, the profits from silk and finely woven cotton cloth would in fact soon dwarf those of the spice trade for the European East India Companies. Due to increasing demand attempts were also made to produce the material locally in mercantilist Europe, with very varied degrees of success.
Why does the description for silk mention cotton fabrics? That's confusing, as cotton is its own trade good. And either way, "Fine Cloth" should be the relevant good for this flavor text, not raw silk?
View attachment 1237749
Salt

Default Price is 3

Salt is essential for human life. In addition, it was the most common means to preserve food for the long winter months. It was either mineral, brought from mines in Central Europe, or natural, from salt wetlands production via evaporation along sunny coastlines.
Using the generalized "Central Europe" here is a bit strange, since certain parts of Central Europe, like Bohemia, had basically no salt production at all and imported from other parts of Central Europe (in the case of Bohemia the mines in the Alps). The most famous source of salt in Europe was Lisbon.

I also don't agree with the high default price for salt. Salt was an absolute mass market good, it wasn't expensive but it essentially had unlimited demand.

View attachment 1237728
Iron
Default Price is 3 and has a transport cost of 2

Iron represents not just iron, but other ferrous metals and the production of alloys such as steel. Iron formed the basis of the metallurgical industry and was used extensively in the production of weapons and other military equipment.
icon_goods_steel.png

Steel
Default Price is 5 and transport cost is 2

Steel is widely used for the crafting of weaponry and guns. Various of its qualities are used for different weapons, blunt steel for axes and high-quality steel for swords and knives. As such, steel is also employed as the main metal for the forging of equipment and tools.

So what does steel actually represent? The flavor text doesn't make it clear at all how it's separated from iron? And the iron description even mentions steel...
What is "blunt steel"? I've never heard this term used before.
How was steel "widely used for the crafting of guns" in the time period? To my knowledge, guns only started using "steel" when the terminology for the material changed from iron to steel, i.e. in the second half of the 19th century.
Why does the icon for iron look like pieces of rock, the very first step of production, when it also represents alloys, the last step of production? It could look like iron ore or pig iron instead.
Why does the icon for steel look like bar iron? In modern terminology, this was probably steel, but in terminology of the time period, this would be called bar iron, not steel.

I made a thread on this strange depiction of iron and steel that is so common in games and I won't repeat everything from there, but to summarize:
In the time period, "steel" specifically referred to an iron alloy that was hardened, while "iron" was the product that came out of bloomeries/fineries/puddling furnaces. In modern terminology, we call basically all of that steel now (while differentiating between mild/hard steel), but in the time period, it was all called bar iron or wrought iron.
In Agricola's iconic 1556 book "De Re Metallica", which basically founded the scientific field of metallurgy, you can find a lot of detail on iron production, but only one section on steel, where he describes how bar iron is hardened to become steel.
Steel was a specialty product that was only used for applications like edges of blades or certain tools.

Even for something like armor plates, which we would today all call steel, the product that was used by the armorer was iron that was hammered into thin sheets. You couldn't do that with hard steel. At the end of the process, the armor pieces could then be hardened (by heating and quenching), which some regions did and some didn't. The famous Northern Italian plate armor, for example, was often not hardened. But this was only the final step, they didn't order "steel" as a raw material from a bloomery/finery forge, even though using modern terminology, what they used would now be called steel.

So in conclusion, this current iron/steel split makes no sense. If you represent time period terminology, then iron should be used for 90% of applications while steel is barely used as an input and works more like a "luxury" good. If you represent modern terminology (from ~1850), then everything should use steel and the iron good would be iron ore or pig iron, which has no use of its own but is needed to make steel.


Finally, I'll repost my suggestion for mineral goods icons from another thread:
GoldBar ShapeYellow
SandPowderYellow
SalpeterPowderWhite/Gray
AlumCrystal ShapeWhite
MarbleOre ShapeWhite
ClayOre ShapeOrange
CopperBar ShapeOrange
StoneOre ShapeGray
MercuryLiquid MetalGray
SilverCoin ShapeGray
LeadBall ShapeGray
TinBar ShapeGray
CoalOre ShapeBlack
(Iron and steel are missing because it's currently not clear what they're supposed to represent)
 
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What's stopping France from expanding the production to 200 or more?
Maximum RGO size is limited by factors like development. In all the screenshots that we've seen so far, you were only able to expand the workforce to a few thousand peasants. We don't know how much this potential expands during the course of the game.
 
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Definitely not. Honey is consistently mentioned as one of the major trade goods of Eastern Europe and other forested areas in the time period. Look at sources for trade in the Hansa and you'll find that honey came from the Baltic and Russia. Look at sources for Mediterranean trade and you'll find that honey came from Hungary.
So true. I am from Tallinn (old name: Reval) and main trading goods that went through Tallinn at that time (from Russia to Western Europe and vice versa) was Salt and Beeswax. Devs and some people here really undervalue Beeswax and Candlemaking. This should be represented in the game, because how crucial that trade was for Eastern and Northern Europe. During the darkness of winter you can't be very productive without any candles. Because of that the demand for Beeswax and Candles was massive during the time period that the game plans to depict. Demand that many regions weren't able to fullfill locally because of urbanisation and widespread agriculture.

 
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Potatos seem a bit odd. The description frames them as a significant upgrade to wheat but they only produce 8 food. Do they have a much higher output than wheat? If not then they should probably produce 10 or even 12 food to represent just how good they were. Otherwise they’re a sidegrade like maize is. Livestock producing 8 food is a bit odd too they should probably be 6 or 7. Good but not as good as proper staple crops.
 
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Is there any plan to simulate how rice Vs wheat cultivation impacts a nation? Especially in the case of warfare. Wheat is a seasonal less labor intensive crop that is subject to crop failure, while rice is more reliable but requires year round intense cultivation. Rice production leads to smaller more professional armies as farmers do not have an off-season to serve as soldiers. Wheat production gives a nation a larger pool of manpower to recruit from.
 
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Is there any plan to simulate how rice Vs wheat cultivation impacts a nation? Especially in the case of warfare. Wheat is a seasonal less labor intensive crop that is subject to crop failure, while rice is more reliable but requires year round intense cultivation. Rice production leads to smaller more professional armies as farmers do not have an off-season to serve as soldiers. Wheat production gives a nation a larger pool of manpower to recruit from.
There are other factors too that make rice agriculture special, which is why I've been wondering if it's even possible to represent entire regions as "rice farming regions" even though only certain locations actually produce rice.
This would impact basic food production, for example. If rice as a good produces the most food, which makes sense, shouldn't basic food production in locations that primarily grow rice also produce more food, even if their produced good is something else?
This would be pretty important to balance the high populations in Asia.
 
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no. you can make leather out of essentially any animal hide. But quality furs are only found in some animals and usually animals that aren't domesticated with the exception of something like rabbits or alpaca. So people either need to go out and hunt or trap these animals they usually cant be farmed. Also most prized furs come from animals in cold climates making it harder to hunt and trap them. Furs should be considerable more expensive than leather. Animals like mink, wolf, bear, beaver and foxes all are pretty good at keeping their distance from people and in the case of bears and wolves prior to firearms were pretty dangerous to hunt.
exactly

thing is, fur is priced less than leather. Why
 
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Regarding spices, and maybe foods too, I think one way to make it more worth it to have different ones is to not only being able to use the as replacement of each other. So it's not only that you can use wool or rice as food, but there should be some bonus for having different foods or spices available. Either by making available new lines of production that are more efficient or something else. Probably the same should happen for gold, silver and gems (and the other goods related).
 
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is ammunition for firearms and cannons going to be modeled? i feel like it should be just called ammunition it’s made from lead or other metals is made by the same things that make guns and armies or navies should have about double the ammunition as guns or cannons ex would be i need 3 guns 6 ammo for a fort etc also different spices should be modeled atleast a few of the big ones as the spice trade fueled a lot of east asian wealth and trade.
 
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