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Tinto Talks #44 - 1st of January 2025

Hello Everyone, and Welcome to a new Tinto Talks. This is the Happy Wednesday, where we give you information about our future upcoming top secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

Today we’ll go over all the trade goods we have in the game. Goods that are raw materials may be extracted from RGO operations in the locations that have them present, but many of them also have buildings that can produce their goods at a slightly less efficiency or capacity for when you need access to it.

Produced goods can only be produced from various buildings.

Some goods have a base-production, which is added to each market, scaled by total development of that market.

Some resources require more trade capacity than others to move a resource between markets. Unless specified, the transport cost is 1.

Default prices is the price a goods would have if supply and demand are matching exactly. The price in each market depends on the supply and demand of the goods in that actual market. The price range changes depending on the age, where in Age of Tradition, prices currently range from 50% to 200% of the default price, while in Age of Revolutions the prices range from 20% to 500% of the default price.

Goods are required by pops, units, building inputs, constructions and more. One important aspect is that you actually need the goods, and if the demand is higher than the supply, then buildings or pops in locations further away from the market center will not get the goods they require!


Raw Materials

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Horses


Default Price is 3 and Transport Cost is 2

Horses were domesticated at an unknown point of the Eurasian Steppe around six thousand years ago. Since then, they have been used by people for a wide variety of tasks, although the most important has been waging war. In that sense, the Middle Ages were the Golden Age of cavalry, as it was closely linked to the development of feudal societies.

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Clay
Default Price is 0.25 and it has a base production of 0.02

Clay is a type of soil that has been used by humanity for the production of pottery and ceramics since prehistoric times. Another main use is in construction, in combination with other materials, or in the creation of bricks. Clay tablets were also one of the first writing methods invented, so its impact in the development of civilization is undeniable.

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Sand
Default Price is 0.5 and it has a base production of 0.01

Sand is one of the most common materials on Earth, and its uses are multiple and varied. It has been the most pervasive abrading material used to shape any kind of stone or metal due to it being coarse and rough, as a component of many building materials and as the main material for the production of glass, among many other uses.

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Stone
Default price is 1, it has a transport cost of 5, and a base production of 0.01

Stone has been one of the main building materials of humanity throughout all its history. Stronger and more durable than other options like clay or wood, it was the go-to material for any construction built to last. Buildings from long ago like the Pyramids have reached our times still standing due to the durability of the stone they were made of.

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Coal
Default Price is 2 and has a transport cost of 2

Coal has a long history as a source of fuel, but it is not until the invention and dissemination of the practical steam engine that demand would take off. As the Industrial Revolution swept across Europe, the use and export or import of coal would become a major business and an integral part of a modern economy.

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Iron
Default Price is 3 and has a transport cost of 2

Iron represents not just iron, but other ferrous metals and the production of alloys such as steel. Iron formed the basis of the metallurgical industry and was used extensively in the production of weapons and other military equipment.

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Copper
Default Price is 3 and has a transport cost of 2

Copper was the main component of bronze and was essential in the early production of cannons.

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Gold

Default Price is 10, but the production impacts inflation.

Gold was the basis of many formal currencies in Europe. The great gold mines of Central and South America would end the great bullion crisis that had gripped Europe in the previous century. However, unwise usage of this great wealth could lead to inflation and ruin.

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Silver
Default Price is 8, but the production impacts inflation.

Silver was one of the first metals used as money and the most successful along with gold. Central Europe became the center of silver production during the Middle Ages, although the Columbian Exchange shifted the focus of world production to the Americas, making it the main production center of a newborn global network since the 16th century.


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Tin
Default Price is 2

Tin was used extensively for the first time in metallurgy as part of the alloy to obtain bronze 5000 years ago. Later it has been widely used to coat other metals and alloys, such as iron, lead or steel, to prevent corrosion, as well as to make pewter, very common in tableware.

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Lead
Default Price is 2

Lead has been obtained since ancient times as a by-product of silver extraction by burning galena. Lead was then used in a wide range of household and manufactured products, especially by the Romans, whose levels of lead production were not reached until the Industrial Revolution. In the Modern Age, it became the main material for making bullets for firearms.

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Silk

Default Price is 4

The finest of all fabrics of the east was the silk produced in India, China, and East Asia. While less iconic than spices, the profits from silk and finely woven cotton cloth would in fact soon dwarf those of the spice trade for the European East India Companies. Due to increasing demand attempts were also made to produce the material locally in mercantilist Europe, with very varied degrees of success.

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Dyes
Default Price is 4 and transport cost is 0.5

For as long as textiles have been woven there has been a market for fine dyes. During the late Middle Ages expensive dyes such as indigo would be worth a fortune due to how distant the source in India was. As the world opened up dyes became easier to get hold of, both through the possibilities to produce them in America and the greater accessibility of the Indian market. Nonetheless, dyes remained rare and in the early 19th century; as the dye plantations in India fell into European hands, a veritable gold rush ensued.

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Incense

Default Price is 2.5 and transport cost is 0.5

To spread smoke and fragrance through the burning of materials has been common in ceremonial practices for centuries. Frankincense, agarwood, sandalwood, myrrh, and other goods suited for this use can be found in few places and their diffusion was an integral part in the formation of trade networks such as the Silk Road or the fittingly named Incense Route.

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Tea

Default Price is 3

Tea was an important luxury drink in China, India, and South-East Asia. It was often used in religious or social rituals. The English popularized tea in Europe. Never considered as noble a drink as coffee, it still produced large profit merely from the fact that the world supply was low.

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Cocoa

Default Price is 4

Cocoa was used as a stimulant by the Aztec, Incan, and Indian rulers since the early medieval times. It was popularized in Europe in the early 16th century when the Spaniards imported it from its American colonies. Cocoa became a luxury enjoyed by the rich.

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Coffee

Default Price is 3

Coffee was discovered in the northeast region of Ethiopia and coffee cultivation first took place in southern Arabia. From the Middle East, coffee spread to Italy in the 17th century and was then introduced to the rest of Europe. Coffee became more widely accepted after it was deemed a Christian beverage by Pope Clement VIII in 1600, despite appeals to ban the 'Muslim drink'.

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Fiber Crops

Default Price is 2

Many different fibrous crops are used all around the world to craft a multitude of products such as sails, ropes, fishing nets, and clothes. Beyond their use to produce coarse textiles, however, many are also used as a core part of the production of finer textiles, used in ceremonies, households, and elsewhere. Some examples are hemp, flax, jute, and sisal.

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Ivory
Default Price is 4

Ivory was one of the main exports of Africa apart from slaves. It was highly sought after by Europeans for use in various manufactured goods such as cutlery, gifts, small pieces of art, furniture, etc.

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Fur
Default Price is 2

Furs were one of the basic elements of high quality and warm clothing. Skins from all kinds of animals were supplied initially from Russia but more and more from North America where beavers would be the prize of choice at least till the late middle 18th century.

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Lumber
Default Price is 1 and the base production is 0.005

Lumber has been one of the main building materials for humanity throughout all its history. Although less durable than stone, it is more easily accessible have made it a staple of any building in all places of the world. Even structures designed to be resistant like castles and fortifications have also their versions made out of wood rather than stone.

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Salt

Default Price is 3

Salt is essential for human life. In addition, it was the most common means to preserve food for the long winter months. It was either mineral, brought from mines in Central Europe, or natural, from salt wetlands production via evaporation along sunny coastlines.

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Medicaments
Default Price is 1 and transport cost is 0.5

A wide variety of plants and animal products have been used throughout history to treat all kinds of illnesses, due to their medicinal properties or supposition thereof. Some were more based on actual properties than others, while in some cases it was more a matter of belief in their effectiveness.

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Gems
Default Price is 4 and transport cost is 0.5

Since the earliest times, stones such as rubies, sapphires, diamonds, emeralds, jade, or pearls, have been used in jewelry and ceremonial attire. For centuries the only source of diamonds in the world were the fabled mines at Golconda. While not all precious stones are as rare, they are all highly sought-after commodities.


icon_goods_pearls.png


Pearls
Default Price is 4

Pearls are produced inside different kinds of shelled mollusks. The resulting product is a hard glistening object, ideally round but can take many shapes. They have been appreciated for their beauty and used like gemstones as ornaments all over the world through all human history.

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Amber
Default Price is 4

Amber is a valuable good made from fossilized resin that was primarily used in the manufacture of jewelry and ornaments. Its main source has been depots on the Prussian coast, mentioned for the first time in a 12th-century document.

icon_goods_saltpeter.png

Saltpeter
Default Price is 2

Saltpeter has been known since antiquity, and its uses have been varied such as a fertilizer or as salt for meat processing. However, it was the invention of gunpowder and firearms during the Middle Ages that really raised its importance, as it is one of the main components of it, together with charcoal and sulfur. Mined in great quantities around the world, this metal will go on to acquire an infamous reputation.

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Alum
Default Price is 3

Alum is an essential ingredient in dye-making as well as specializing in the tanning process. Seeing use in a variety of artistic and craft contexts, it is primarily utilized in painting and illuminating processes. Originating mostly from the Chad region, it was traded in the markets of the entire Islamic world, but in the Late Middle Ages, other sources started to be exploited in Europe.

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Spices
Default Price is 6 and the transport cost is 0.25

Spices have been known in Europe since ancient times, mostly for their medicinal value, and for their ability to improve the taste of food. Pepper, ginger, nutmeg, chili, cinnamon, etc. came partly from East Africa but mostly from India, China, and the Spice Islands (current Indonesia), to be traded in Alexandria or the other terminals of the great caravan roads. The European desire for cheaper and more direct supply constituted the main motivation for the very first eastbound sea voyages of discoveries for Portugal.

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Wine
Default Price is 2

Wines have been produced since time immemorial in the southern parts of Europe. It still constituted an essential element of the everyday diet, except maybe in the Muslim world. Wine was not considered a luxury product but probably served as a welcome relief for hundreds to an otherwise dull diet.

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Elephants
Default Price is 10

Elephants have been used in warfare since ancient times in India, South East Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa. The use of elephantry persisted in some of these regions into the Middle Ages, although the advent of gunpowder warfare in the Modern Age outpaced its usefulness in battle.

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Marble
Default Price is 5

Marble has been used in sculptures and constructions since Antiquity, being considered a type of luxurious material due to its appearance and ductility. Some of the best works of art made by Renaissance and Baroque artists, such as Michelangelo or Bernini, are made of marble.

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Mercury
Default Price is 3

Mercury is used for medicine, but will also be of great importance to refine gold and silver ores of lesser qualities in order to make them profitable.

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Cotton
Default Price is 3

Cotton originated from Central Asia but was not widely used in Europe until it was introduced to the American colonies and used as a cheap but good complement or substitute for wool in the clothing industry of the late 18th century

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Sugar
Default Price is 3

Sugar was used not only as a sweetener but also for food preservation. The sugar cane was the only known means of obtaining sugar at this time and had been grown initially in some Mediterranean islands. But the labor-intensive plantation system in America, especially in the Caribbean islands, would soon move the major production sources overseas.

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Tobacco
Default Price is 3

Tobacco was unknown in Europe until brought from Americans in the late 16th century. It quickly became a fashion for the upper classes who could afford it and ensured the fast and profitable economic growth of the British colonies in North America, as well as in Portuguese Brazil.



Food

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Wool
Default Price is 2.5 and produces 5 food per unit produced.

Wool came mostly from sheep that grazed in the more marginal lands not suited to other forms of agriculture. Prior to the use of cotton, it was the major raw material for clothing.

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Wild Game
Default Price is 1 and produces 2.5 food per unit produced.

Wild game is the source of food and nutrition for local populations, especially in sparsely populated rural communities. The hunt of wild animals such as elk, deer, boars and more, are an important cornerstone of a society due to the fact that the aforementioned animals contribute leather, bones, entrails and nutrition to the populace.

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Fish
Default Price is 1 and produces 5 food per unit produced.

Fish was one of the most basic foods for the European population in this age, as meat was more than a luxury for the great majority. Fishermen also provided the basic recruiting pool of the merchant and military navies of most nations.

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Wheat
Default Price is 1 and produces 8 food per unit produced.

Wheat represents the vegetable foodstuff that was the staple diet for humans and animals. Lack of it would always lead to revolts and riots. Other cereals and vegetable foodstuffs would later be augmented by tomatoes, corn, and even potatoes from America offering a wider choice both in food and agricultural production varieties.

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Soybeans
Default Price is 1 and produces 6 food per unit produced.

Soybeans are a type of legume that have been a staple crop in East Asia for almost ten thousand years. Their uses are quite versatile, as not only can they be eaten by themselves, but also milk can be extracted from them, which can also be further processed into tofu. Soybeans can also be fermented into products such as soy sauce and miso.

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Maize
Default Price is 1 and produces 8 food per unit produced.

A cultivated plant that was originally domesticated in Mexico, thousands of years ago, maize was traded between the new and the old world with the arrival of the Europeans in the 15th century. Due to its enduring nature as well as its higher dietary value, maize is destined to become a worldwide commodity.

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Rice
Default Price is 1 and produces 10 food per unit produced.

Rice is a type of grain that has been the staple food for Asia since its domestication more than ten thousand years ago. It was also independently domesticated in Africa more than three thousand years ago, and it has also been an important food source there ever since. It was brought to Europe through trade with Asia as far back as Classical Antiquity, although it did not manage to supersede other types of grain there.

icon_goods_millet.png

Sturdy Grains
Default Price is 1 and produces 5 food per unit produced.

Sturdy Grains are different kinds of cereal grasses that have been domesticated in many parts of the World at different points in time ever since the Neolithic. Their greater resistance to poor quality soils and dry conditions have made them into a more important food source in semi-arid regions compared to other kinds of grain.

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Legumes
Default Price is 1 and produces 5 food per unit produced.

Various civilizations across history have utilized legumes as a substantial source of nutrition for thousands of years. Much like maize, Europeans were introduced to new types of them with their eventual arrival on the shores of the New World. Legumes were not only filling but also cheap to produce and move on ships.

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Potato
Default Price is 1 and produces 8 food per unit produced.

The potato is a starchy tuber domesticated around Lake Titicaca by the native people of the Andes. It helped the rise of the Andean civilizations thanks to its hardiness and high caloric density. After the Columbian exchange, it spread all around the globe and by 1750 it was a staple food in Europe facilitating its 19th-century population boom.

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Livestock
Default Price is 1.5 and produces 8 food per unit produced.

Since the dawn of history, the care for domesticated animals has been one of the main occupations of humanity. Livestock includes everything from cows and horses in rich agricultural areas to the herds of pastoralists in the great plains and deserts of the world.

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Olives
Default Price is 1 and produces 4 food per unit produced.

Olives are harvested from the trees of the same name, which have been cultivated around the Mediterranean Sea for thousands of years. They are highly appreciated in gastronomy, especially the olive oil that is used to cook and dress a wide range of foods in Mediterranean cuisine.

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Dates
Default Price is 1 and produces 4 food per unit produced.

Dates are a type of fruit harvested from date palm trees, which grow in semi-arid, but fertile terrains throughout the Middle East and North Africa. Dates are widely used in the different cuisines of these regions.

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Fruit
Default Price is 1 and produces 4 food per unit produced.

Fruits cover a wide range of products found on trees such as citrus, bitter and sweet oranges, apples and more. For many, these products would be unattainable and a source of nutrition only for the elites. Nearly every region across the world is home to a different kind of fruit and the advent of global trade would go on to introduce different populations to various new fruits.


Produced Goods

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Tar
Default Price is 2

Originally propped up as a cash crop, tar is a valuable ingredient of the ship-building business. Its appearance, that of a thick black liquid, is due to the aggressive distillation process that is required for its production. Tar is widely used as a seal for ship hulls and as a cheap way to waterproof sails.

icon_goods_porcelain.png

Porcelain
Default Price is 3 and the transport cost is 0.5

Porcelain is a type of ceramics characterized by its strength and translucence due to the vitrification of the materials caused by high temperatures. It was developed in China over a period of time starting more than three thousand years ago, with proper porcelain being developed already almost two thousand years ago, and from there, it eventually spread to all over the world as a highly sought-after commodity.

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Naval Supplies
Default Price is 3

Naval Supplies represent everything needed in ship construction, from basic wood to tar, ropes, linen, sails, and various other materials. The Baltic was initially the main supplier until North America became an alternate source of supply in the early 18th century. Colonial expansion into America was in part to secure supplies of such vital goods.

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Firearms
Default Price is 3

The conception and arrival of guns changed the dynamic of battlefields. Wars waged across Asia and Europe will now be subject to cultivating, importing and harnessing the potency of gunpowder. Guns have become a natural evolution of warfare and an essential part of protecting the sovereignty of domains across the earth.

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Cannons
Default Price is 4 and transport cost is 1.5

Although siege weapons have existed since antiquity, the discovery of gunpowder has given rise to some weapons with a potentially destructive power that has never been seen before. The ability to throw bigger projectiles at greater speed and distances than ever before will make all but the sturdiest of fortifications quickly fall before them, without mentioning the effect those projectiles can have when fired towards armies themselves.

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Weaponry
Default Price is 3

Various weapons such as swords, pikes, and bows make up the core weaponry of every army. The techniques behind their creation are an art refined throughout the ages. Despite that and regardless of how different the era may be, weaponry will always be a vital instrument to protect one's independence.

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Glass
Default Price is 2 and transport cost is 0.5

Glass has been valued for centuries as a useful material for art, architecture, or simply the crafting of vessels for daily use. Eventually, as glassmaking techniques improved, glass would also become crucial to the scientific field of optics, with glass lenses being used in the fabrication of spectacles, telescopes, and a plethora of other devices with wide-ranging applications from maritime navigation to the natural sciences.

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Steel
Default Price is 5 and transport cost is 2

Steel is widely used for the crafting of weaponry and guns. Various of its qualities are used for different weapons, blunt steel for axes and high-quality steel for swords and knives. As such, steel is also employed as the main metal for the forging of equipment and tools.

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Cloth
Default Price is 3

Cloth represents the various fabrics and clothing made from wool and linen. Later cotton, imported from India and the Americas, became a major material for cloth.

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Fine Cloth
Default Price is 6

Fine clothing was traditionally a marker of status for the elites and wealthy classes. Textiles such as damasks, muslins, or brocades were marketed and replicated throughout the world as a very profitable business in the Middle and Modern Ages.

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Liquor
Default Price is 2.5

Liquor is an alcoholic beverage produced by distillation of very different types of products of plant origin. Distillation is done to increase the alcohol by volume. Popular liquors distilled and consumed around the world were gin, rum, whisky, vodka, tequila, or shōchū.

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Beer
Default Price is 2

Beer has been a pillar of gastronomy since it was first brewed in the Neolithic. It became a widespread drink in the Middle Ages, and was the object of the oldest food-quality regulation still in use, the Bavarian 'Reinheitsgebot'.

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Slaves
Default Price is 3

Slaves had been a trading commodity since Antiquity, but demand increased sharply in the late 16th century when Slaves offered one of the cheapest sources of labor for European plantations in the Americas.

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Paper
Default Price is 2

Paper is a necessity for all types of advanced accounting, administration, and diffusion of knowledge. The process of its production was originally devised in China and then slowly made its way to all corners of the Old World. Far superior to other types of writing materials such as parchment, the large-scale production of paper requires a specialized set of skills and equipment, making it a rare and sought after commodity.

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Books
Default Price is 5

Books have been one of the main custodians of human knowledge since writing was invented thousands of years ago. They were usually made of leather parchment, paper, and other plant fibers. The invention and spread of movable type printing systems in the Middle Ages made books much more widespread and accessible to the population.

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Jewelry
Default Price is 5 and transport cost is 0.5

Jewelry represents a set of regalia or ornaments that are crafted by skilled smiths using jewels and precious stones. Their value is often associated with high social standing and even royalty.

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Leather
Default Price is 3

One of humanity's earliest discoveries, leather is largely used in the manufacturing of clothes, footwear, and decoration. Its success is largely attributed to its high level of comfort and durability, eventually becoming the choice material for the making of dinner-related furniture, due to leather being easy to maintain while being resistant to absorbing food odor.

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Tools
Default Price is 3

The production of tools is the main factor that allowed human society to flourish. From the more simple and primitive stone tools to the most advanced and precise implements developed through the use of metallurgy, they allow the further creation of equipment and weapons.


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Masonry
Default Price is 1

Construction techniques come in all shapes and sizes. The ability to fabricate smaller pieces with a regular size and shape to use in construction greatly increases not only the efficiency in which buildings can be constructed but also their durability once built.


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Lacquerware
Default Price is 5

Lacquerware was developed in China and Japan as far back as the Neolithic period, more than ten thousand years ago, and consists in covering products made of wood or metal with a decorative layer of lacquer, a product extracted from resin and wax. This lacquer layer can then be further decorated with paintings, carvings or dustings of gold or silver making it into a luxurious good.

Stay Tuned, as next week we'll delve into the effects of all vegetations, topography and climate.
 
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Currently beer, and wine seems to exclude any other alcohol, but cider were as popular. I think you can merge cider, and mead in to beer, or wine, but make that clear.
The biggest difference/impact is who consumes the product, cider is more of a sub for wine.
The lower class should not be drinking more spirits/liqour pre industrial revolution than cider.
If it is a substitution for wine, then it can be represented by wine. For game mechanics, it will be much better, if the categories stay simple. Consider that otherwise there will suddenly be a "cider" demand to fulfill that costs performance while at the same time reducing the wine/beer demand. Same issue as with the spices.
 
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They all functioned exactly the same, so it was just different flavor, and had no major impact on gameplay.
so do products not have dynamic prices? I will say while marking differences between every single major spice is silly, at least keeping track of the general kind (indian, indonesian, american) could make this feel better
 
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I have a suggestion for saltpetre (saltpeter) since I noticed a couple of mistakes.

Firstly, saltpeter is not a metal as the description says. It is really a type of salt. I hope this is changed in-game.

Secondly, the saltpeter icon is a grey powder but, in reality, pure saltpeter (nitre / potassium nitrate) is a white powder. If it is mined as a rock, and especially using medieval production methods, it will likely be a bit contaminated and might have a slightly brownish tint which can help differentiate it from salt (which kind of looks like sugar when it's in the bag, btw).

Maybe the artist made it grey to make it seem like gunpowder, but as the description correctly says, saltpeter itself has more uses than just gunpowder.
 
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hmm.. tin and lead could be same as copper and iron
I think it's better to keep it this way since tin was used in much smaller quantities than copper or iron.

Bronze is often about 10-12% tin by weight, with the rest being copper. This means you need a much smaller amount of tin to be transported to get a productive quantity of it compared to copper and iron.

The transport cost depends on how the extraction and demand quantities are set up, so maybe this is already reflected in a much lower demand for tin around the world than copper, in which case the "per unit" transport cost should be the same I guess, but you just need to transport a lot less of it.

Lead was also less plentiful than iron, but was not as rare as tin. I suppose the same logic applies here.

I'll be interested to hear how each transport unit is defined :)

Cheers.
 
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That is very sad to hear. Massive reason for colonialism and world wide trade was the trade of different spices. This getting sidelined by having generic "spices" and there not being any system or representation of differences in spices is highly disappointing. This should be the area of trade and goods production that should have more (and not less) different goods and also attention from the dev team. It raises the question: why even bother making a game about this time period when you don't care to properly simulate massivly influencial trade of spices? In your game there wouldn't be any reason for Colombus to discover new world, because Europeans could just use some other generic spices from somewhere nearby rather than spices from India or East Indies.
Bro just raised a philosophical question about the game's point of existence for not having dozens of mechanically useless cosmetic goods.

Like it literally could be represented by having high demands for spices without the necessary supply.If those 5 locations in Africa are a problem just buff the locations in the east indies with some modifiers at start.
 
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Hello. Are some goods going to be exploided and replaced? Gold and silver are good example like some places were super rich and many ppl lived there cuz mining towns but when gold\silver ends, so is reason to stay there.
 
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Why are products always juxtaposed with total class and belonging relations? We saw this in eu4, and here, my God, it's everywhere... For example, tar, but the introduction mentions naval supplies containing tar, or fruit and dates, which are introduced as a fruit in the first sentence of the introduction.
In terms of price and output and transportation, consumption and so on, this doesn't seem to be very thoughtful either,and the presentation isn't particularly accurate... For example, most of the materials have almost no related design, and only some of them exist. And one of the most important ones is the food category. Seriously, is this numerical design serious? This calls into question the need for humans to enter the age of agriculture, when there is no need to grow shrivelled little things, and cattle, sheep and fish can be eaten to death - nomadic or hunter-gatherer civilizations would be happy with their abundance. Ok, tough grain that is easily beaten with extra supplies by sheep that specialize in wool may not matter much, but even for growers it's a bit comical, given that olives alone provide four servings of food.
 
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Salt might be a mass market good, but it was quite valueable in bulk and should not be cheap at all.
Yes, of course anything is going to be "valuable in bulk", that doesn't mean that one 'unit' of it is valuable. Salt definitely shouldn't be more valuable than paper or glass.
Salt was the petroleum of its time, consumed in large amounts by basically everyone in society and a good way to become rich if you were producing it, but not an expensive good.

Was normal pottery traded much internationally? If not I´m gussing clay gets to represent pottery
Yes, absolutely. Pottery from Siegburg (Siegburger Steinzeug/Siegburg Stoneware) was traded in large amounts across Europe which makes it useful today for dating archeological sites. It was most popular between the 16th and 17th centuries. Before that, pottery from Cologne was also traded a lot along with the ones from Siegburg.
 
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I have very mixed feelings about this TT, there are actually a lot of good things, but the bad things stand out too.

I'll start straight away, if they failed to create an incentive to have multiple types of spices, then they set up the game wrong from the start, we are literally in the period where an entire continent was colonized because those who had the money wanted to eat something slightly spicier, but without having the Muslims as intermediaries. The same period where the world connected like never before just because they liked the taste of cloves and vanilla in their desserts.
I can understand them because spices really seem like something that can be included in the game naturally like the rest of the goods... But really therein lies the mistake, if they had been something with the same importance as most of the goods shown, our world would have been absurdly different.
I remember (correct me if I'm wrong) that they said that food variety is beneficial (I don't remember exactly how), the same could be applied to spices, which as much as I don't like to accumulate modifiers, it makes a lot of sense, pepper is quite good in cooking in general but not in baking, so abstracting goods that literally altered the world should never have been an option in the first place, they never had as little impact as medicines, so they shouldn't be given the same treatment.

On the other hand it made me raise an eyebrow to see that pearls and amber exist separately from gems, when in reality they can be abstracted into the latter just like spices (Following the same line of thought), but for some reason obsidian was abstracted, despite the fact that it was used so much to make jewelry, as weapons and tools, whereas pearls were just another gem, they were important for trade and colonization... But their impact was much less than that of the different spices, so they can be abstracted, just like amber, which seems to be more to avoid placing gems in Prussia, which is why it exists more for balance than anything else, since apart from some provinces, it seems to be something quite local. But it seems that Mexico will have gem deposits with modifiers like "Mexican Armorers" that give you +10% gems produced... Using gems to produce weapons and tools along with jewelry doesn't help much, it only ends up helping the colonizers who will have meaningless provincial bonuses for them, since they will never use the gems to make tools (weapons, of course).

Looking at the comments I see that they are not strangers to adding provincial modifiers to certain important places, something that I do not disagree with, but knowing that makes me think that resistant grains lose their reason for existing, adding to the areas where it appears the modifier of "Scarce Lands" or "Poor Lands" that subtract -50% food production (arbitrary number on my part), being that the cultural group of the Andes together with some other cultures could investigate terrace crops to improve their production, let's say it has three levels, being that the first reduces the penalty, the second neutralizes it and the third increases the maximum size for difficult terrains, it may be that the first levels can all be investigated but late in the game, while it has more levels and can be investigated earlier for cultures that have that tradition.

I also think that tubers would be a more appropriate name for potatoes, knowing their high nutritional value, their ease of cultivation and their resilience to climate, I am surprised that it produces as much food as wheat, it should produce 10 in my opinion, apart from that there should be a way to extend its cultivation to Europe without depending on just events, I consider that there should be an action of the cabinet to promote its cultivation, where it will replace the resistant grain with priority, something that will take its time (As in real life), because despite the Columbian exchange, tubers cost a lot to be introduced in Europe, it was really thanks to a guy who was too fanatic about potatoes, enough to make massive campaigns and show their "nutritional superiority" to the rest of the population, that the cultivation of the potato spread throughout Europe.

I've really been liking a lot of the things they've been doing, not to disparage what they do, I just have to say what bothers me, by the way, seeing the current state of the game the only solution I see is dividing the spices into three groups (That suggestion is a good compromise), I really hope in the future they think about how to introduce different spices and that these are relevant to the game, I'm sure that in retrospect they will come up with how to polish certain mechanics.
 
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Shouldn’t potatoes produce more food per unit than grain? As I recall, one of the reasons they were widely adopted in Europe was because they could produce significantly more calories per acre of crop than wheat. I am not saying it should be a massive change, but maybe up to 9 or 10 food per unit.
 
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Yes, of course anything is going to be "valuable in bulk", that doesn't mean that one 'unit' of it is valuable. Salt definitely shouldn't be more valuable than paper or glass.
Salt was the petroleum of its time, consumed in large amounts by basically everyone in society and a good way to become rich if you were producing it, but not an expensive good.
The problem is that salt was also produced in quite large bulks. And among raw materials, it is quite valuable.
Glass and paper are not raw materials and would have smaller unit sizes.
The transport capacity values are also just simplifications.
 
The problem is that salt was also produced in quite large bulks. And among raw materials, it is quite valuable.
Glass and paper are not raw materials and would have smaller unit sizes.
The transport capacity values are also just simplifications.
How much of a good is produced and consumed is balanced by production methods in the game. If a production method produces large amounts of a good, then that would make its price lower, not higher.
Stone and lumber were produced in bulk as they were the building materials for basically everything, does that mean they should have a high base price too?

Owning salt mines made you rich, because salt was such a necessary good but couldn't be produced just anywhere. The good shouldn't have a high base price, but it should be demanded by all types of pops as well as some types of production (fishery, butchers), so it should be profitable to export salt to regions that don't produce enough of it.
 
For less annoyance, perhaps instead of a sudden halving of production have it drop more gradually. Include some prognosis "we expect that this mine can operate at this level for 100 years", not 100% accurate of course but not totally off.

With the player having 100s of mines if can be way too much micro to look at them all, so macrobuilder should be able to take the prognosis into account when sorting locations for building improvements.

Then again, all that could use too much performance compared to what it gives. IDK.
If they introduce depleting (btw., good idea with the time estimate), they must bring in prospecting.
 
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It's weird to me that liquor and beer are produced goods but wine is a raw good. Maybe it should be produced by a "vineyard" or "winery" building with fruit and wood (for barrels) as input
please no...

Wine is a raw good. I know it sounds counter intuitive, let me explain.

I live in a wine area. People here dont grow "grapes" they grow "wine". In autumn there is the wine harvest, the hills are called "vinyards", not "orchards" etc...The beverage we know is made from....well, wine! (and a tiny bit of yeast, but thats it).

Producing wine from fruits makes no sense, and I would be very sad and disappointed if the devs do it like this. Wine is very picky, you need to grow it on hills, south side to be sure, and if it blooms and you have frost one night in june....it just dies. Growing wine is a brutal fight against nature, even today with all the high tech used by the vintners. Wine also had clerical usage. If you assume you can just use apples or pears to make wine in the game, you would neglect 1000+ years history of wine cultivation in europe, so please...

Beer was different, it was made from "stuff they had", like if you had too much grain, they used it to make beer, and they added other ingredients, making it more kind of a produced good.

Anyway my two cents, hope the devs leave beer and wine as is, I was happy that there are actually all three: beer, wine and liquor.
 
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Is it just me or are there a lot of weird wordings and contradictions in these descriptions?


View attachment 1237728
Iron
Default Price is 3 and has a transport cost of 2

Iron represents not just iron, but other ferrous metals and the production of alloys such as steel. Iron formed the basis of the metallurgical industry and was used extensively in the production of weapons and other military equipment.


. . .


icon_goods_steel.png

Steel
Default Price is 5 and transport cost is 2

Steel is widely used for the crafting of weaponry and guns. Various of its qualities are used for different weapons, blunt steel for axes and high-quality steel for swords and knives. As such, steel is also employed as the main metal for the forging of equipment and tools.

The iron description says it includes steel but the existence of steel as a good implies it doesn't


View attachment 1237751
Gems
Default Price is 4 and transport cost is 0.5

Since the earliest times, stones such as rubies, sapphires, diamonds, emeralds, jade, or pearls, have been used in jewelry and ceremonial attire. For centuries the only source of diamonds in the world were the fabled mines at Golconda. While not all precious stones are as rare, they are all highly sought-after commodities.


View attachment 1237752

Pearls
Default Price is 4

Pearls are produced inside different kinds of shelled mollusks. The resulting product is a hard glistening object, ideally round but can take many shapes. They have been appreciated for their beauty and used like gemstones as ornaments all over the world through all human history.


Gems descriptions says it includes pearls but the existence of pearls as their own good implies that it doesn't (Unless there's a building that converts pearls to gems?)


View attachment 1237754
Saltpeter
Default Price is 2

Saltpeter has been known since antiquity, and its uses have been varied such as a fertilizer or as salt for meat processing. However, it was the invention of gunpowder and firearms during the Middle Ages that really raised its importance, as it is one of the main components of it, together with charcoal and sulfur. Mined in great quantities around the world, this metal will go on to acquire an infamous reputation.


This says saltpeter is a metal, which isn't really true. It contains potassium, which is a metal when it's in elemental form, but saltpeter is mostly nitrate by weight and is chemically a salt.
 
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Will horses be used for non-war purposes? Like plowing fields, turning mills or pulling carts? Oftentimes, steam engines existed to replace horses, whether replacing horsemills for grinding grain/pumping water/blowing bellows where wind/water mills couldn't. or replacing horses that were used to pull wagons in early light railways.

One interesting way to directly use horses is in a mail service, consuming horses and paper and increasing control along established paths in addition to the control bonuses already given by the road. It'd also be a little funny if this also consumed guns, since mail coaches back in the day had a guard with a blunderbuss guarding the mail at all times, which is where the term "shotgun seat" came from (though I don't think "its funny" is a good reason to actually add that as a requirement)
 
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Can someone explain to me what transport cost is? Is it the idea that a good 'keeps' better and therefore is easier to transport? Like gold and silver are durable goods that you can leave in a crate no problem, while crops will rot if they don't reach their destination fast enough. Is that the idea?

Also: Since goods like livestock produce food, can something be done with spices and salt (and honey if that's included) to represent that they are massive food multipliers? The ability to use them to preserve food was massive to different nations and their ability to produce food and corresponding population booms.

Also can resources 'double up' on the resources produced? Like I imagine if you own Elephants you'd have no problem producing ivory. Production of horses can double as livestock in a pinch, and many cultures would eat horses. Now they wouldn't raise them to only eat them, but it'd be kinda silly if you only had horses in your country and starved without any food. Likewise I imagine that Books should count for paper requirements, guns for weaponry requirements, and you point out how saltpeter preserved food so it seems like it should work for salt requirements.
 
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So alum gets to be a good but not cowries or obsidian?

Also why no sorghum or is that included in sturdy grains? (The picture looks closeish)
 
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I'm curious as to the overlap between tar and naval supplies (the text says "Naval Supplies represent everything needed in ship construction, from basic wood to tar, ropes, linen, sails, and various other materials."). Is that just a text bug? What is the production chain?

I'm also surprised that something like iron or copper is that hard to transport. I know they are heavy, I was expecting raw metal to be significantly more valuable (not just +50%) per pound than lumber, masonry, wine, beer or leather. I was also expecting it to be easier to transport than fiber crops (due to the bulk of fiber crops). Steel is similarly surprisingly hard to transport. I'm also surprised at how similar the values for most goods are (clay aside). Firearms, Cannon and Weapons are all very similar cost.

Is much of this based on historical research (before being tweaked for gameplay)?

Default price changes means a lot of rebalancing on input/output on many production methods, and changing setup etc..

These have been balanced out over a few years now.
How do you handle the tension between sharing too late when it's too late to do anything with feedback vs sharing too early when you can't?
They all functioned exactly the same, so it was just different flavor, and had no major impact on gameplay.
I would have considered the French not caring about spices from Asia because they grow Mustard in Dijon a significant gameplay effect. Unless you just removed non-Asian spices from the game and "spices" was code for "Asian spices"?
 
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