Tinto Talks #45 - 8th of January 2025

[luo]

Mediterranean climate regions have never had the highest population densities and food production, I don't know why they have such high positive modifiers, the climates of India and China are massively underestimated to the point where they don't fit into historical reality.

What also needs to be said is that on the Great Plains of North China, I found a cold arid climate in the center of a large continental climate. Although in fact there is no such gap in climate in these areas, I suspect that it is the modern data calculation of the Köppen climate zone. It reflects the impact of the urban heat island effect and cannot reflect the climate at that time.

Climate in red circle should be changed into continental climate in my opinion, those place has no different with besides.

This map looks more realistic, and there are no strange climate zone changes.

 

[McEwanMaster]

The terrain icon art looks great, but some of them look similar, with sometimes only very minor differences. To help with quick identification, could the icons be colored or at least tinted with the colors that correspond to their appearance the Climate/Topography/Vegetation mapmodes?

 

[M Sohl]

I'm not talking about weather systems, I'm talking about climate. Apart from the Mediterranean region, the Mediterranean climate does not cover other civilization centers in the world, including densely populated China and India, as well as less densely populated Central America and West Africa.
The 'perfect climate' should cover more regions and populations, not just the Roman Empire.

I understand. But if monsoons that hit annually ad a positive modifier that annulls any disadvantage of the terrain in those areas of China and India, then those parts of the world will also have a perfect climate. Right?

Or is it just the description you object to?

 

[Fer D Zero]

probably not gonna be feasible

sad, would be cool for terrain to change, plant forests etc

Although should be some limitation on making everything farmland i guess. Whether by only in some areas or something?

One way to change could be via buildings - ie build a "forestry" and it slowly changes the province to a woods over 20 years. Gives some lumber output once converted but reduces pop cap like usual terrain idk

 

[zeruosi]

I understand. But if monsoons that hit annually ad a positive modifier that annulls any disadvantage of the terrain in those areas of China and India, then those parts of the world will also have a perfect climate. Right?

Or is it just the description you object to?

I don't want to see a pop-up window of monsoon events every year telling me where there was too much rainfall and where there was too little rainfall and where there was drought this year.
If we use the monsoon as a simple correction, why can't we add the influence of the monsoon in a perfect climate.

 

[luo]

Exactly, China and India should be above population capacity.
Large populations should come with significant drawbacks, which is both historical and prevents a meta where more population growth is always strictly better.
(More musings on this topic over in this thread)

It should be pointed out that this cannot explain the rapid population growth of China and India in the following hundreds of years. China and India successively grew to a population of 400 million around 1850, and did not cause huge famines.

In 1337, China's population was 90 million, and India's was slightly less. The figure of 400 million is very far away. It is difficult to think that the population of China and India has exceeded the population capacity at this time.

 

[Johan]

So it's possible for Baltic Sea (and I guess also for Mediterranean Sea) to freeze during winter and thus it can turn from sea to land, where it's possible to walk over with armies? Or it depends on the climate itself, where it requires certain temperature?

yes, can happen in parts of the baltic.

 

[mrflagio]

Also what exactly makes the Mediterranean climate the best vs say subtropical, isn’t it generally drier?

Have you been there?

 

[lazprune]

if pops < max pop capacity, they get higher migration attraction.

And each location has an individual pop capacity.
So regions of the map with more locations will attract more pops in total.
So regions with higher density will be more populated given enough time.

So in theory Europe supports more pops than India.

How do you fix this issue?

 

[Rule Britannia]

Yeah im sure they have been testing that. It is just one modifier thought, based on a flat number which spain or italy is gonna be much lower on due to its vegetation. There are many more other sources of population capacity. I think that developing an economy further and having a more productive agriculture will lead to the end of the game countries like Netherlands or England to have way higher population density than Spain or Italy. At least for the IA. im sure players will be able to make a lot of countries that are unthinakable today, have one of the highest populations in Europe

I hope you are right

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

I'd prefer something in between grasslands and woods. savanna, estacado, or whatever name you can come up with

 

[Mef]

It should be pointed out that this cannot explain the rapid population growth of China and India in the following hundreds of years. China and India successively grew to a population of 400 million around 1850, and did not cause huge famines.

In 1337, China's population was 90 million, and India's was slightly less. The figure of 400 million is very far away. It is difficult to think that the population of China and India has exceeded the population capacity at this time.

Yes, in my opinion population capacity shouldn't directly affect population growth. As long as there's enough food available, populations will keep growing. And since food is simulated in the game, there's no need for an arbitrary number like population capacity to take its place.
But population capacity as a value can still be useful for balance, to clearly indicate when a location is considered to be highly populated.

 

[M Sohl]

I don't want to see a pop-up window of monsoon events every year telling me where there was too much rainfall and where there was too little rainfall and where there was drought this year.
If we use the monsoon as a simple correction, why can't we add the influence of the monsoon in a perfect climate.

as I wrote in my comment, I hope that the player don´t have to be informed every time the monsoon hits. Monsoons in EU4 was a late addition that was pasted on top of a already working game. In this new game it may not have to be. It could be a beatifully executed functions within in the base game. It might be a great solution to what you ask for.

 

[luo]

I understand. But if monsoons that hit annually ad a positive modifier that annulls any disadvantage of the terrain in those areas of China and India, then those parts of the world will also have a perfect climate. Right?

Or is it just the description you object to?

In terms of agricultural production, the advantages of monsoon climate are very obvious. Agricultural output can directly affect the number of people a region can afford. At this point, monsoon climate is indeed more important than other climates.

 

[Song of Falcon and Owl]

This is slightly different from the reality that the regions with the Mediterranean climate do not exhibit the highest population capacity... The fact that more than half the world's population is concentrated at the eastern end of the continent, neither India nor China, including the island of Java, which supports more than 100 million people, has a Mediterranean climate. I think there should be some calibration when theory deviates significantly from reality.

 

[shahar]

If the max winter in most location is "mild" then shouldn't that be the "normal" one?

And them the "normal" will be "harsh" or "cold"?

Its kinda weird to have be in the minority since the word means "usual, typical"

 

[matfer13]

Are there modifiers to represent the very fertile black soil in places like Ukraine and Canada?

 

[zeruosi]

Yes, in my opinion population capacity shouldn't directly affect population growth. As long as there's enough food available, populations will keep growing. And since food is simulated in the game, there's no need for an arbitrary number like population capacity to take its place.
But population capacity as a value can still be useful for balance, to clearly indicate when a location is considered to be highly populated.

But I find it difficult to understand why the population density index of the Mediterranean is higher, wheat is not the crop with the highest yield, and the Mediterranean climate is not more suitable for human habitation than other temperate and subtropical climates. This is not the planet Gaia.
Why is this?

 

[mrflagio]

This is a very good question. While I am team Mediterranean for lifestyle, objectively the main population centers in the world are in Subtropical, Mediterranean should really be second place in terms of population capacity.

That's not due to climate though.

 

[Sulphurologist]

View attachment 1241137

Climate in red circle should be changed into continental climate in my opinion, those place has no different with besides.

View attachment 1241138
This map looks more realistic, and there are no strange climate zone changes.

That map is grossly oversimplifying the reality.
The 'pockets' are due to elevation-based differences in climate. That said, the version they shared with us so far is indeed based on the 1991-2020 map, but urban heat island effects are not visible at this scale.
You can view/download the 1901-1930 climate map here: https://www.gloh2o.org/koppen/

In my climate thread I also mapped out all categories according to Tinto's categories, which clearly demonstrates this pattern: