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Tinto Talks #45 - 8th of January 2025

Welcome to another Tinto Talks! Happy Wednesday where we talk about our super-secret game with the codename Project Caesar, asking you for feedback!


Today we’ll go into the details of how terrain works in the game. To iterate from the Map-Tinto-Talks from almost a year ago, each location has three different attributes instead of a single one as previous games had. This creates more variation and allows us more granular control over game play.

Each location has a climate, a topography and a vegetation set. Sea locations do not have vegetation though.


Climate

climate.png


The climate of a location impacts how well pops can live there, including how much food can be produced. It also affects the maximum winter level of a location.

tropical.png
Tropical

Population Capacity +50%
Development Growth -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Tropical represents areas with high average temperatures and no winter.

subtropical.png
Subtropical

Population Capacity +100%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Subtropical represents areas with high average temperatures and mild winters.

oceanic.png
Oceanic
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Oceanic represents areas with mild winters but high humidity.

arid.png
Arid
Wheat Production -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Precipitation
No Winters

Arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water.

cold_arid.png
Cold Arid

Wheat Production -10%
No Precipitation
Max Winter is Mild

Cold arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water but experiences winters.

mediterranean.png
Mediterranean
Population Capacity +150%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Mediterranean represents areas with a perfect climate!

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Continental
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Normal

Continental represents areas with cold winters.

arctic.png
Arctic
Population Capacity -55%
Development Growth -25%
Life Expectancy -5
Max Winter is Severe

Arctic represents areas with very cold winters.

Vegetation

vegetation.png


Vegetation represents the foliage cover of a location.

desert.png
Desert

Can have Sandstorms
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
RGO Build time +50%
Road Build time +100%
Development Growth -10%
Food Production -33%
Population Capacity +10k

Deserts are barren landscapes with little precipitation and almost no potential for plant or animal life.

sparse.png
Sparse
Road Build time -10%
Population Capacity +25k

Sparse represent large flat areas of land with few or no trees.

grasslands.png
Grasslands
Food Production +10%
Population Capacity 50k

Grasslands represent terrain dominated by grass with little or no trees or shrubs.

farmland.png
Farmland
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
Road Build time +10%
Development Growth +10%
Population Capacity +100k
RGO Maximum Size +10%
Food Production +33%

Farmland represents anthropogenic terrain, devoted to crops and/or extensive pastures.

woods.png
Woods
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Road Build time +25%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -20%
Food Production +10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Woods represent terrain with less dense vegetation than forests.


forest.png
Forest
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +33%
Population Capacity +25k
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Forest represents terrain with dense vegetation.


jungle.png
Jungle
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +50%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -50%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A jungle represents terrain with dense forest and tangled vegetation that makes doing anything on the land difficult.




Topography

topography.png


Topography represents the roughness and elevation of the land within a location. Flatter Topography is generally better for growing Towns and Cities while rougher Topography is easier to defend.


These first ones are land related topographies.

flatland.png
Flatland

No special attributes

Flatland represents terrain that does not have any major topographic variation, so there are no impediments for army movement or building development.

mountains.png
Mountains
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -2
Movement is Blocked in Winter
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +100%
Population Capacity -80%
Development Growth -70%
Food Production -20%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Mountain terrain has high altitude and also steep slopes with relatively few and narrow flat areas, so it is more difficult for armies to cross and fight in it, and also more difficult to develop.

hills.png
Hills

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A terrain with hills has variations in the topography, but the slopes are not as steep nor as high as those of mountains, so the penalties are also not as bad.

plateau.png
Plateau
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -1
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

They represent relatively flat areas situated at high altitude, so they have some penalties compared to flatlands due to their elevation.

wetlands.png
Wetlands

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +75%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%

Wetlands are terrain that is partially flooded, generally due to being near a river, lake, or coast.


The following are the naval ones.

ocean.png
Ocean
Naval Attrition +1%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel.

deep_ocean.png
Deep Ocean
Naval Attrition +2%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, in the furthest areas from any coast.

coastal_ocean.png
Coastal Ocean
No special attributes

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, but in the areas closer to the coast.

inland_sea.png
Inland Sea
Can Freeze over during winter

Inland seas represent the land-enclosed seas like the Mediterranean or the Baltic.

narrows.png
Narrows

Can Freeze over during winter
Movement Cost for Navies +20%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Narrows are areas of sea with proximity of coast on many sides, like straits or the sea inside archipelagos, where there is not much space for movement.


Lakes, Salt Pans and Atolls exists, but are just graphical variants of Coastal Oceans, even if lakes could freeze over during winter.

Stay tuned, as next week we’ll delve into the wonderful world of military objectives.
 
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I suspect there is a little bit of bias at play here representing Mediterranean as a "perfect climate". :) How does the population capacity modifier from climate work, is it applied just on a base value so that its importance reduce over time as areas are developed and tech improves, or is it applied at the end remaining a powerful buff throughout the game? Especially if it is the latter, I do not understand why Mediterranean and subtropical would get a bonus to population capacity that is respectively 3 and 2 times that of a temperate oceanic climate? Why would e.g. the Mediterranean, absent other modifiers and ceteris paribus, have a population capacity 66% higher than North Western Europe? Certainly by the end of the game period this would seem very strange. If you want to indicate that many people prefer the Mediterranean climate, would an extra boost to the attractiveness of free land not make more sense?
 
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I imagine the life expectancy penalty for the tropics is supposed to represent disease, but what about the ones for artic and arid, neither of them are exactly prime for large agricultural populations, but I don’t see why the characters living there should have shorter lifespans (I imagine the lifespans are a character specific thing)
It may be due to water shortage and temperature loss
 
View attachment 1240999Desert
Can have Sandstorms
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
RGO Build time +50%
Road Build time +100%
Development Growth -10%
Food Production -33%
Population Capacity +10k

Deserts are barren landscapes with little precipitation and almost no potential for plant or animal life.


View attachment 1241002Farmland
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
Road Build time +10%
Development Growth +10%
Population Capacity +100k
RGO Maximum Size +10%
Food Production +33%
freeze over during winter.

Stay tuned, as next week we’ll delve into the wonderful world of military objectives.
Desert and Farmlands, both have +10% army movement cost. and +10% road building cost.
Wouldn't it make sense that these terrains are easier to build roads/move in, due to lack of vegetation?
 
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@Johan is gonna be possible to "swap crops"? Like if I have a location producing wheat can I change it into rice and if yes is the climate/topography/vegetation going to limit that( for example you can't farm olives in continental)
 
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Why should they have higher capacity though?
Bcz their environment were more favourable for large population capacity

I mean China didnt get large population by luck, maybe rice resource can give population capacity to its and adjacent locations
 
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Wetlands definitely should not be so negative. They are great for hunting and fishing, and also can be extremely fertile if developed. See South China(though I suppose in-game it'd mostly be farmlands that in a hypothetical past were Wetlands terrain).
I think you should give an example along the coast of Dongting Lake. Or Lake Texcoco. The area of South China is too large
 
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Why should they? It's not like they have few locations and they have a better start
Have you not looked at ANY locality quantity comparison between China and Western Europe? I can't find these comparisons right now but China at least is quite less dense than the HRE
Why should they have higher capacity though?
Why shouldn't places that consistently had similar or higher populations than Europe not have higher capacity?
 
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Will the fact that certain cultures (like the indigenous Quechua and Aimara) were able to develop highly productive agriculture in mountains and plateau's be simulated? Or maybe a special attribute for the growth of potatoes?
 
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I suspect there is a little bit of bias at play here representing Mediterranean as a "perfect climate". :) How does the population capacity modifier from climate work, is it applied just on a base value so that its importance reduce over time as areas are developed and tech improves, or is it applied at the end remaining a powerful buff throughout the game? Especially if it is the latter, I do not understand why Mediterranean and subtropical would get a bonus to population capacity that is respectively 3 and 2 times that of a temperate oceanic climate? Why would e.g. the Mediterranean, absent other modifiers and ceteris paribus, have a population capacity 66% higher than North Western Europe? Certainly by the end of the game period this would seem very strange. If you want to indicate that many people prefer the Mediterranean climate, would an extra boost to the attractiveness of free land not make more sense?
I'm not an expert on climate at all, but I'd guess that the climate in the Mediterranean makes it easier to sustain bigger populations than places like the UK where the climate is colder and the winter harsher,same for subtropical who is also suited for growing stuff