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Tinto Talks #45 - 8th of January 2025

Welcome to another Tinto Talks! Happy Wednesday where we talk about our super-secret game with the codename Project Caesar, asking you for feedback!


Today we’ll go into the details of how terrain works in the game. To iterate from the Map-Tinto-Talks from almost a year ago, each location has three different attributes instead of a single one as previous games had. This creates more variation and allows us more granular control over game play.

Each location has a climate, a topography and a vegetation set. Sea locations do not have vegetation though.


Climate

climate.png


The climate of a location impacts how well pops can live there, including how much food can be produced. It also affects the maximum winter level of a location.

tropical.png
Tropical

Population Capacity +50%
Development Growth -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Tropical represents areas with high average temperatures and no winter.

subtropical.png
Subtropical

Population Capacity +100%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Subtropical represents areas with high average temperatures and mild winters.

oceanic.png
Oceanic
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Oceanic represents areas with mild winters but high humidity.

arid.png
Arid
Wheat Production -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Precipitation
No Winters

Arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water.

cold_arid.png
Cold Arid

Wheat Production -10%
No Precipitation
Max Winter is Mild

Cold arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water but experiences winters.

mediterranean.png
Mediterranean
Population Capacity +150%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Mediterranean represents areas with a perfect climate!

continental.png
Continental
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Normal

Continental represents areas with cold winters.

arctic.png
Arctic
Population Capacity -55%
Development Growth -25%
Life Expectancy -5
Max Winter is Severe

Arctic represents areas with very cold winters.

Vegetation

vegetation.png


Vegetation represents the foliage cover of a location.

desert.png
Desert

Can have Sandstorms
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
RGO Build time +50%
Road Build time +100%
Development Growth -10%
Food Production -33%
Population Capacity +10k

Deserts are barren landscapes with little precipitation and almost no potential for plant or animal life.

sparse.png
Sparse
Road Build time -10%
Population Capacity +25k

Sparse represent large flat areas of land with few or no trees.

grasslands.png
Grasslands
Food Production +10%
Population Capacity 50k

Grasslands represent terrain dominated by grass with little or no trees or shrubs.

farmland.png
Farmland
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
Road Build time +10%
Development Growth +10%
Population Capacity +100k
RGO Maximum Size +10%
Food Production +33%

Farmland represents anthropogenic terrain, devoted to crops and/or extensive pastures.

woods.png
Woods
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Road Build time +25%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -20%
Food Production +10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Woods represent terrain with less dense vegetation than forests.


forest.png
Forest
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +33%
Population Capacity +25k
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Forest represents terrain with dense vegetation.


jungle.png
Jungle
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +50%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -50%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A jungle represents terrain with dense forest and tangled vegetation that makes doing anything on the land difficult.




Topography

topography.png


Topography represents the roughness and elevation of the land within a location. Flatter Topography is generally better for growing Towns and Cities while rougher Topography is easier to defend.


These first ones are land related topographies.

flatland.png
Flatland

No special attributes

Flatland represents terrain that does not have any major topographic variation, so there are no impediments for army movement or building development.

mountains.png
Mountains
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -2
Movement is Blocked in Winter
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +100%
Population Capacity -80%
Development Growth -70%
Food Production -20%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Mountain terrain has high altitude and also steep slopes with relatively few and narrow flat areas, so it is more difficult for armies to cross and fight in it, and also more difficult to develop.

hills.png
Hills

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A terrain with hills has variations in the topography, but the slopes are not as steep nor as high as those of mountains, so the penalties are also not as bad.

plateau.png
Plateau
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -1
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

They represent relatively flat areas situated at high altitude, so they have some penalties compared to flatlands due to their elevation.

wetlands.png
Wetlands

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +75%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%

Wetlands are terrain that is partially flooded, generally due to being near a river, lake, or coast.


The following are the naval ones.

ocean.png
Ocean
Naval Attrition +1%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel.

deep_ocean.png
Deep Ocean
Naval Attrition +2%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, in the furthest areas from any coast.

coastal_ocean.png
Coastal Ocean
No special attributes

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, but in the areas closer to the coast.

inland_sea.png
Inland Sea
Can Freeze over during winter

Inland seas represent the land-enclosed seas like the Mediterranean or the Baltic.

narrows.png
Narrows

Can Freeze over during winter
Movement Cost for Navies +20%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Narrows are areas of sea with proximity of coast on many sides, like straits or the sea inside archipelagos, where there is not much space for movement.


Lakes, Salt Pans and Atolls exists, but are just graphical variants of Coastal Oceans, even if lakes could freeze over during winter.

Stay tuned, as next week we’ll delve into the wonderful world of military objectives.
 
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"Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land" - This is super cool! I guess it means that if there is a forest, a nearby army will not be able to penetrate the fog of war into or beyond that forest? So you could get hit by surprise by an army in that forest?
My question would, does that block vision for the 'controller' of the land? Can an enemy hide an army in my forest? Could they once they occupy it? What is the base field of vision?
 
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in Summer humid air rains out in the Monsoon regions, leaving almost nothing for more Morthern China.
Because of the Taihang Mountains and Yanshan Mountains, the North China Plain (such as Hebei) can even experience heavy rainstorms in summer, while the interior of the Taihang Mountains is on the contrary, drier. The Guanzhong Plain is more similar to the Huaihe River Basin in the summer. It is almost equally humid in the summer, but too dry in the winter. For agriculture, I think it is more reasonable to classify it as the southern place as subtropical. The same reason applies to the Hebei area and should be classified as continental.

(I think the situation in summer should be considered more, because the climate is more related to agricultural production. If it is classified as a dry climate because of the lack of precipitation in winter, this obviously cannot simulate the real situation, because both locations are thousands of important agricultural producing areas in recent years)
 
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Continental maxes out at "normal winter"? Am I misreading what this means given most of the continental Americas and Eurasia can and does get bitterly cold?

The Gangetic Plain and South China are Subtropical and the North China Plain is Continental. These are and were the most populous places in the world and while the former could be credited to rice, the North China Plain mostly grows and grew wheat

I'm not sure that any of the Mediterranean regions of the map have ever had a comparable population or population density to these three regions so it's a little strange to see it have such a large population bonus
 
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Great work, one question @Johan, I already asked in one of the TT, is there a thing like fertility which further impacts food production? Despite farmlands having +33% food production, it's unrealistic to consider a rural location around Nile to produce same amount of food as some farmland location in, I don't know, Czech Republic with similar population. How do you plan to balance it?
 
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Yeah south-central China and Northern India, famously sparse places
I should have clarified I did not mean Monsoon (Cwa) humid subtropical, but Cfa humid subtropical. Po Valley and parts of Southern China are the only Cfa worldwide with pre-modern high pops, and both have the benefit of extremely consistent rivers (Yangtze/Po) and more comfortable summer temperatures.

That said, monsoon (Cwa) should definitely be modeled in game.
 
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Continental maxes out at "normal winter"? Am I misreading what this means given most of the continental Americas and Eurasia can and does get bitterly cold?

The Gangetic Plain and South China are Subtropical and the North China Plain is Continental. These are and were the most populous places in the world and while the former could be credited to rice, the North China Plain mostly grows and grew wheat

I'm not sure that any of the Mediterranean regions of the map have ever had a comparable population or population density to these three regions so it's a little strange to see it have such a large population bonus
I'm a little curious if you really think rice can grow in relatively dry and cold regions.
It's a bit difficult for me to understand why you keep saying that X you ordered for me
 
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I have a feeling that, in the end game, the extent of these penalties will create severe disparities in development between neighboring locations within the same country. For instance, I might expect the boundaries between continental and Arctic in Sweden, or between Mediterranean and cold arid in Spain, to create pretty extreme differences between neighboring locations as the game goes on.

is there any mechanism to “blend” or even out neighboring population/development, so neighboring locations don’t become too different?


EDIT:
I'm fine with topographical/vegetation differences, but in regards to climate, this is what I mean:
View attachment 1241116
At the boundaries between climatic regions, we flip from bonuses to severe penalties. In reality, there are additional climatic types that the tinto team has lumped together for simplicity. But because Paradox has lumped these climatic types together, we lose the "mixed condition" border regions.
View attachment 1241129
(here, paradox has lumped Cfc (subpolar oceanic), Dfc (subarctic), and ET (tundra) into the same "Arctic" category, while in reality, there may only be small differences between subpolar oceanic and oceanic)

400 years into the game, I suspect this will create really severe disparities in development that wouldn't actually happen between locations that are literally right next to eachother.

What I am wondering is whether there is any mechanism to help low development locations "catch up" to high development locations that they directly neighbor. This might help to even out this otherwise unrealistic long-term differences
To be honest, I don't see that much of a difference between map you posted and Tinto Maps of Scandinavia, so I would say, they did a really good job.
 
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I should have clarified I did not mean Monsoon (Cwa) humid subtropical, but Cfa humid subtropical. Po Valley and parts of Southern China are the only Cfa worldwide with pre-modern high pops, and both have the benefit of extremely consistent rivers (Yangtze/Po) and more comfortable summer temperatures.

That said, monsoon (Cwa) should definitely be modeled in game.
Yes there should be Monsoon climate, if we have dry summer climate (mediterranean) then I think dry winter one should be there too
 
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Welcome to another Tinto Talks! Happy Wednesday where we talk about our super-secret game with the codename Project Caesar, asking you for feedback!


Today we’ll go into the details of how terrain works in the game. To iterate from the Map-Tinto-Talks from almost a year ago, each location has three different attributes instead of a single one as previous games had. This creates more variation and allows us more granular control over game play.

Each location has a climate, a topography and a vegetation set. Sea locations do not have vegetation though.


Climate

View attachment 1240989

The climate of a location impacts how well pops can live there, including how much food can be produced. It also affects the maximum winter level of a location.

View attachment 1240990 Tropical
Population Capacity +50%
Development Growth -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Tropical represents areas with high average temperatures and no winter.

View attachment 1240991Subtropical
Population Capacity +100%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Subtropical represents areas with high average temperatures and mild winters.

View attachment 1240992Oceanic
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Oceanic represents areas with mild winters but high humidity.

View attachment 1240993Arid
Wheat Production -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Precipitation
No Winters

Arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water.

View attachment 1240994Cold Arid
Wheat Production -10%
No Precipitation
Max Winter is Mild

Cold arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water but experiences winters.

View attachment 1240995Mediterranean
Population Capacity +150%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Mediterranean represents areas with a perfect climate!

View attachment 1240996Continental
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Normal

Continental represents areas with cold winters.

View attachment 1240997Arctic
Population Capacity -55%
Development Growth -25%
Life Expectancy -5
Max Winter is Severe

Arctic represents areas with very cold winters.

Vegetation

View attachment 1240998

Vegetation represents the foliage cover of a location.

View attachment 1240999Desert
Can have Sandstorms
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
RGO Build time +50%
Road Build time +100%
Development Growth -10%
Food Production -33%
Population Capacity +10k

Deserts are barren landscapes with little precipitation and almost no potential for plant or animal life.

View attachment 1241000Sparse
Road Build time -10%
Population Capacity +25k

Sparse represent large flat areas of land with few or no trees.

View attachment 1241001Grasslands
Food Production +10%
Population Capacity 50k

Grasslands represent terrain dominated by grass with little or no trees or shrubs.

View attachment 1241002Farmland
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
Road Build time +10%
Development Growth +10%
Population Capacity +100k
RGO Maximum Size +10%
Food Production +33%

Farmland represents anthropogenic terrain, devoted to crops and/or extensive pastures.

View attachment 1241003Woods
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Road Build time +25%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -20%
Food Production +10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Woods represent terrain with less dense vegetation than forests.


View attachment 1241004Forest
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +33%
Population Capacity +25k
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Forest represents terrain with dense vegetation.


View attachment 1241005Jungle
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +50%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -50%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A jungle represents terrain with dense forest and tangled vegetation that makes doing anything on the land difficult.




Topography

View attachment 1241006

Topography represents the roughness and elevation of the land within a location. Flatter Topography is generally better for growing Towns and Cities while rougher Topography is easier to defend.


These first ones are land related topographies.

View attachment 1241007Flatland
No special attributes

Flatland represents terrain that does not have any major topographic variation, so there are no impediments for army movement or building development.

View attachment 1241008Mountains
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -2
Movement is Blocked in Winter
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +100%
Population Capacity -80%
Development Growth -70%
Food Production -20%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Mountain terrain has high altitude and also steep slopes with relatively few and narrow flat areas, so it is more difficult for armies to cross and fight in it, and also more difficult to develop.

View attachment 1241009Hills
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A terrain with hills has variations in the topography, but the slopes are not as steep nor as high as those of mountains, so the penalties are also not as bad.

View attachment 1241010Plateau
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -1
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

They represent relatively flat areas situated at high altitude, so they have some penalties compared to flatlands due to their elevation.

View attachment 1241011Wetlands
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +75%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%

Wetlands are terrain that is partially flooded, generally due to being near a river, lake, or coast.


The following are the naval ones.

View attachment 1241012Ocean
Naval Attrition +1%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel.

View attachment 1241013Deep Ocean
Naval Attrition +2%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, in the furthest areas from any coast.

View attachment 1241014Coastal Ocean
No special attributes

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, but in the areas closer to the coast.

View attachment 1241015Inland Sea
Can Freeze over during winter

Inland seas represent the land-enclosed seas like the Mediterranean or the Baltic.

View attachment 1241016Narrows
Can Freeze over during winter
Movement Cost for Navies +20%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Narrows are areas of sea with proximity of coast on many sides, like straits or the sea inside archipelagos, where there is not much space for movement.


Lakes, Salt Pans and Atolls exists, but are just graphical variants of Coastal Oceans, even if lakes could freeze over during winter.

Stay tuned, as next week we’ll delve into the wonderful world of military objectives.
The symbols are beautiful!
 
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I should have clarified I did not mean Monsoon (Cwa) humid subtropical, but Cfa humid subtropical. Po Valley and parts of Southern China are the only Cfa worldwide with pre-modern high pops, and both have the benefit of extremely consistent rivers (Yangtze/Po) and more comfortable summer temperatures.

That said, monsoon (Cwa) should definitely be modeled in game.
"Only", this is pure cherrypicking. If you compared the American CFA to nearby climates they generally aren't worse, Argentina doesn't seem worse than most of coastal tropical or arid Brazil or Chile or Patagonia of course. The Southern US most definitely is not worse than the northern or Western US.
Same goes for Australia locally, your argument implicitly hinges on an apple to orange comparison.

Also Japan exists too, I guess that's another member of the "only" club that includes most of the CFA in the old world

1736353609610.png
 
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Prefacing that I am underqualified regarding climate or geography.

The only way that I can see these popcapacity numbers make sense is that river (delta) adjacency gives enormous pop capacity & development bonuses to locations.

Besides that I would suggest significantly reducing the pop capacity bonus for the mediterranean climate. The only reason I can see this current choice making sense for you is to maintain the historical starting populations of the mediterranean coast through the early game.

Another possible solution may be to nerf the migration attraction bonus for available land and increasing the migration attraction and population cap bonus from development.
 
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I definitely hope that location pixel count, if not already used in the game, is something that you can use for modding. I don't think there would be a better base for population capacity (or arable land, which I want to change it to) than pixel count.
Cool idea but it's not that simple, just because a location is bigger than another that doesn't mean that the first one has more arable land or space for houses even if they have the same topography, climate and vegetation
You have different terrain types which are just outright better for farming specific crops and terrains on which you can only build huts, I understand why the devs didn't go for something like what you want to do since it would require enormous amounts of research
 
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Because of the Taihang Mountains and Yanshan Mountains, the North China Plain (such as Hebei) can even experience heavy rainstorms in summer, while the interior of the Taihang Mountains is on the contrary, drier. The Guanzhong Plain is more similar to the Huaihe River Basin in the summer. It is almost equally humid in the summer, but too dry in the winter. For agriculture, I think it is more reasonable to classify it as the southern place as subtropical. The same reason applies to the Hebei area and should be classified as continental.

(I think the situation in summer should be considered more, because the climate is more related to agricultural production. If it is classified as a dry climate because of the lack of precipitation in winter, this obviously cannot simulate the real situation, because both locations are thousands of important agricultural producing areas in recent years)
Yeah Climate and Agriculture are never a 1-to-1 match, so for balancing it could be done.

This is the global 'agro-ecological zoning' map for the world: (note: with the perspective of modern-day climates and agricultural technology)
https://data.apps.fao.org/catalog/d...resource/ed3e895e-ea00-4dbb-91ba-4e9f98b5b61a

Note how uniform Europe is, despite the Oceanic-Continental gradient, and the same if true for NE-China.
 
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I should have clarified I did not mean Monsoon (Cwa) humid subtropical, but Cfa humid subtropical. Po Valley and parts of Southern China are the only Cfa worldwide with pre-modern high pops, and both have the benefit of extremely consistent rivers (Yangtze/Po) and more comfortable summer temperatures.

That said, monsoon (Cwa) should definitely be modeled in game.
1000368743.png


Here's the monsoon map of China, those places need be more like humid in summer period.