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Tinto Talks #45 - 8th of January 2025

Welcome to another Tinto Talks! Happy Wednesday where we talk about our super-secret game with the codename Project Caesar, asking you for feedback!


Today we’ll go into the details of how terrain works in the game. To iterate from the Map-Tinto-Talks from almost a year ago, each location has three different attributes instead of a single one as previous games had. This creates more variation and allows us more granular control over game play.

Each location has a climate, a topography and a vegetation set. Sea locations do not have vegetation though.


Climate

climate.png


The climate of a location impacts how well pops can live there, including how much food can be produced. It also affects the maximum winter level of a location.

tropical.png
Tropical
Population Capacity +50%
Development Growth -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Tropical represents areas with high average temperatures and no winter.

subtropical.png
Subtropical
Population Capacity +100%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Subtropical represents areas with high average temperatures and mild winters.

oceanic.png
Oceanic
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Oceanic represents areas with mild winters but high humidity.

arid.png
Arid
Wheat Production -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Precipitation
No Winters

Arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water.

cold_arid.png
Cold Arid
Wheat Production -10%
No Precipitation
Max Winter is Mild

Cold arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water but experiences winters.

mediterranean.png
Mediterranean
Population Capacity +150%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Mediterranean represents areas with a perfect climate!

continental.png
Continental
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Normal

Continental represents areas with cold winters.

arctic.png
Arctic
Population Capacity -55%
Development Growth -25%
Life Expectancy -5
Max Winter is Severe

Arctic represents areas with very cold winters.

Vegetation

vegetation.png


Vegetation represents the foliage cover of a location.

desert.png
Desert
Can have Sandstorms
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
RGO Build time +50%
Road Build time +100%
Development Growth -10%
Food Production -33%
Population Capacity +10k

Deserts are barren landscapes with little precipitation and almost no potential for plant or animal life.

sparse.png
Sparse
Road Build time -10%
Population Capacity +25k

Sparse represent large flat areas of land with few or no trees.

grasslands.png
Grasslands
Food Production +10%
Population Capacity 50k

Grasslands represent terrain dominated by grass with little or no trees or shrubs.

farmland.png
Farmland
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
Road Build time +10%
Development Growth +10%
Population Capacity +100k
RGO Maximum Size +10%
Food Production +33%

Farmland represents anthropogenic terrain, devoted to crops and/or extensive pastures.

woods.png
Woods
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Road Build time +25%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -20%
Food Production +10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Woods represent terrain with less dense vegetation than forests.


forest.png
Forest
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +33%
Population Capacity +25k
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Forest represents terrain with dense vegetation.


jungle.png
Jungle
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +50%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -50%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A jungle represents terrain with dense forest and tangled vegetation that makes doing anything on the land difficult.




Topography

topography.png


Topography represents the roughness and elevation of the land within a location. Flatter Topography is generally better for growing Towns and Cities while rougher Topography is easier to defend.


These first ones are land related topographies.

flatland.png
Flatland
No special attributes

Flatland represents terrain that does not have any major topographic variation, so there are no impediments for army movement or building development.

mountains.png
Mountains
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -2
Movement is Blocked in Winter
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +100%
Population Capacity -80%
Development Growth -70%
Food Production -20%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Mountain terrain has high altitude and also steep slopes with relatively few and narrow flat areas, so it is more difficult for armies to cross and fight in it, and also more difficult to develop.

hills.png
Hills
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A terrain with hills has variations in the topography, but the slopes are not as steep nor as high as those of mountains, so the penalties are also not as bad.

plateau.png
Plateau
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -1
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

They represent relatively flat areas situated at high altitude, so they have some penalties compared to flatlands due to their elevation.

wetlands.png
Wetlands
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +75%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%

Wetlands are terrain that is partially flooded, generally due to being near a river, lake, or coast.


The following are the naval ones.

ocean.png
Ocean
Naval Attrition +1%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel.

deep_ocean.png
Deep Ocean
Naval Attrition +2%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, in the furthest areas from any coast.

coastal_ocean.png
Coastal Ocean
No special attributes

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, but in the areas closer to the coast.

inland_sea.png
Inland Sea
Can Freeze over during winter

Inland seas represent the land-enclosed seas like the Mediterranean or the Baltic.

narrows.png
Narrows
Can Freeze over during winter
Movement Cost for Navies +20%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Narrows are areas of sea with proximity of coast on many sides, like straits or the sea inside archipelagos, where there is not much space for movement.


Lakes, Salt Pans and Atolls exists, but are just graphical variants of Coastal Oceans, even if lakes could freeze over during winter.

Stay tuned, as next week we’ll delve into the wonderful world of military objectives.
 
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Oglesby said:
My question would, does that block vision for the 'controller' of the land? Can an enemy hide an army in my forest? Could they once they occupy it? What is the base field of vision?
Click to expand...
Countries always have vision in:
  • land they are present in, e.g:
    • controlled land including occupations of foreign land
    • colonial charters
    • buildings
    • units
  • owned Core locations
    • even if they are occupied during war
Blocked vision from terrain counts only for peering into adjacent locations that you are not currently present in.
 
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Can vegetation be changed (from woods to farmland)?
 
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It makes no sense for eastern Wallachia and Dobrudja to be cold arid climate. I believe that PC uses the Koppen climate types. Heres a map:
1736353923930.png


Edit: There seem to be conflicting maps:

1736355221985.png


1736355257858.png


I'm inclined to trust the ones which are more favorable of the south-eastern climate considering the population density map, which doesn't seem to be different in the south-east compared to the rest of the country because of climate, but more so the presence of the Danube and geography(Dobruja is hilly) (which leads me to believe there aren't drastic climate differences between the south-east and the rest of the country but in game it will very much be so):
1736355524243.png
 
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Bisonmask said:
Continental maxes out at "normal winter"? Am I misreading what this means given most of the continental Americas and Eurasia can and does get bitterly cold?

The Gangetic Plain and South China are Subtropical and the North China Plain is Continental. These are and were the most populous places in the world and while the former could be credited to rice, the North China Plain mostly grows and grew wheat

I'm not sure that any of the Mediterranean regions of the map have ever had a comparable population or population density to these three regions so it's a little strange to see it have such a large population bonus
Click to expand...
DXc and DXd and (partially of course)EX climates are all artic:

Subarctic climate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

+

Polar climate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I assume anything between 0 and -10 winters might be "just" normal winter
 
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Ok, 2 mechanics here are pretty good:

- blocked view from adjusted land/sea. Seems pretty good for maneuver potencial, ambushes and defender bonuses. But i have to ask: how AI handles this? In eu4 AI had a handicap that it tracked armies done time after they should not see it if they were a player - is there something like this?

- reduced fronage on certain terrain - this is something i missed in eu4. Smaller armies have much better chances defending in advantageous terrain (in addition to the attacker roll penalty).

I very much like the separation into 3 dimensions of terrain. Great job
 
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Zerodv said:
not ideal but if your climate is overly granular(beyond Koppen, we need highland equatorial climate!) you could partially offset that there, as climates more likely to be far from the equator could have a small negative multplier backed in
Click to expand...
Ideally @SaintDaveUK also provides a "latitude" script thingy for locations that yields the latitude of the center of the location and I can just scale based on that. It won't be perfect, but at least it works.
 
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Johan said:
you are corect
Click to expand...
There's also an issue with the frontage and attacker penalty in combat colours/syntax.

Would frontage/combat width always be a negative especially if you're defending against a larger army? Perhaps it should just be white text?

For attacker penalty in combat +1, as I understand it that would mean you are adding 1 penalty to the attacker's dice roll meaning you subtract 1 from their dice roll.

The syntax of that isn't very intuitive and a bit confusing. Attacker modifier in combat -1 would be clearer. It also shouldn't be coloured as again it's contextual on whether you're the defender or attacker.
 
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My feedback of effects, only two:
-The description and effect of mediterranean climate sounds almost like a joke. Not sure if intended as that. The mediterranean might be have an enjoyable climate but subtropical is a better agricultural climate, and should Imo be a better climate in game, considering the time period. Med should probably be reduces to +50 population capacity.
-Plateau. As someone that lives in one, I harshly disagree with the effects, the effects are nearly as bad as hills, which is ridiculous. Movement cost and RGO build time should be lowered to like '+10' at best, and development growth should just be like '-10'. Finally the road construction time penalty should only apply when building from/towards a plain or wetlands tile, to represent the elevation difference, I see absolutely no reason why building roads between plateaus or between a plateau and a hill/mountain should result in the playeau giving a penalty to its contruction.
 
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Bisonmask said:
Continental maxes out at "normal winter"? Am I misreading what this means given most of the continental Americas and Eurasia can and does get bitterly cold?

The Gangetic Plain and South China are Subtropical and the North China Plain is Continental. These are and were the most populous places in the world and while the former could be credited to rice, the North China Plain mostly grows and grew wheat

I'm not sure that any of the Mediterranean regions of the map have ever had a comparable population or population density to these three regions so it's a little strange to see it have such a large population bonus
Click to expand...
Yeah, the most obvious areas with high population around the Mediterranean would be, as others have mentioned, around major rivers. It'd make a lot more sense to make Mediterranean climate worse in terms of capacity, but make rivers a powerful boost to capacity, perhaps even scaling that boost higher in drier locations (to offset the general lower capacity of the climate). I feel that maps a lot closer to historical population patterns.

matfer13 said:
Cool idea but it's not that simple, just because a location is bigger than another that doesn't mean that the first one has more arable land or space for houses even if they have the same topography, climate and vegetation
You have different terrain types which are just outright better for farming specific crops and terrains on which you can only build huts, I understand why the devs didn't go for something like what you want to do since it would require enormous amounts of research
Click to expand...
But different terrain types are specifically a characteristic of a location, meaning these sorts of differences should be accounted for. Not adjusting for province size however, puts gameplay in direct conflict with balance. Without it, splitting a location in two to more accurately reflect some aspect the developers feel important, like the presence of mountain passes, harbors, and historical/cultural borders, would instantly double the potential of the location.
 
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Kotyk-durkotyk said:
Wow, this looks really amazing!

I just have a suggestion on the possible and highly requested vegetation change mechanic.
If deforestation is implemented, you should also implement reforestation mechanic in the locations, that lost significant part of their population (at least due to the Black Death).

According to the scientists, the Black Death caused significant reforestation in Europe in the following ~100 years.
Here is a France example from Mather et al. (1999):
View attachment 1241070

Here is a table with some calculated forest cover data in Europe from Kaplan et al. (2009):
View attachment 1241069

Of course, that should be limited only to relevant regions/climates. Not expected in tundra or deserts.

And thank you for your dedication!
Click to expand...
So, looks like we will not have dynamic vegetation:
Johan said:
probably not gonna be feasible
Click to expand...
Hence, at least for Europe 1337 represents 'average' forest cover throughout the game time frame quite well (with the Black Death switched on).
 
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What happens when an army is sieging a Mountain Fort during summer and then Winter arrives? Is the army getting kicked out ? Do they stay on siege but suffer great attrition? Also can the castle owner come and defend the fort if it keeps getting sieged during winter by an ennemy army?
 
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