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Tinto Talks #45 - 8th of January 2025

Welcome to another Tinto Talks! Happy Wednesday where we talk about our super-secret game with the codename Project Caesar, asking you for feedback!


Today we’ll go into the details of how terrain works in the game. To iterate from the Map-Tinto-Talks from almost a year ago, each location has three different attributes instead of a single one as previous games had. This creates more variation and allows us more granular control over game play.

Each location has a climate, a topography and a vegetation set. Sea locations do not have vegetation though.


Climate

climate.png


The climate of a location impacts how well pops can live there, including how much food can be produced. It also affects the maximum winter level of a location.

tropical.png
Tropical

Population Capacity +50%
Development Growth -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Tropical represents areas with high average temperatures and no winter.

subtropical.png
Subtropical

Population Capacity +100%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Subtropical represents areas with high average temperatures and mild winters.

oceanic.png
Oceanic
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Oceanic represents areas with mild winters but high humidity.

arid.png
Arid
Wheat Production -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Precipitation
No Winters

Arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water.

cold_arid.png
Cold Arid

Wheat Production -10%
No Precipitation
Max Winter is Mild

Cold arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water but experiences winters.

mediterranean.png
Mediterranean
Population Capacity +150%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Mediterranean represents areas with a perfect climate!

continental.png
Continental
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Normal

Continental represents areas with cold winters.

arctic.png
Arctic
Population Capacity -55%
Development Growth -25%
Life Expectancy -5
Max Winter is Severe

Arctic represents areas with very cold winters.

Vegetation

vegetation.png


Vegetation represents the foliage cover of a location.

desert.png
Desert

Can have Sandstorms
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
RGO Build time +50%
Road Build time +100%
Development Growth -10%
Food Production -33%
Population Capacity +10k

Deserts are barren landscapes with little precipitation and almost no potential for plant or animal life.

sparse.png
Sparse
Road Build time -10%
Population Capacity +25k

Sparse represent large flat areas of land with few or no trees.

grasslands.png
Grasslands
Food Production +10%
Population Capacity 50k

Grasslands represent terrain dominated by grass with little or no trees or shrubs.

farmland.png
Farmland
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
Road Build time +10%
Development Growth +10%
Population Capacity +100k
RGO Maximum Size +10%
Food Production +33%

Farmland represents anthropogenic terrain, devoted to crops and/or extensive pastures.

woods.png
Woods
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Road Build time +25%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -20%
Food Production +10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Woods represent terrain with less dense vegetation than forests.


forest.png
Forest
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +33%
Population Capacity +25k
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Forest represents terrain with dense vegetation.


jungle.png
Jungle
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +50%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -50%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A jungle represents terrain with dense forest and tangled vegetation that makes doing anything on the land difficult.




Topography

topography.png


Topography represents the roughness and elevation of the land within a location. Flatter Topography is generally better for growing Towns and Cities while rougher Topography is easier to defend.


These first ones are land related topographies.

flatland.png
Flatland

No special attributes

Flatland represents terrain that does not have any major topographic variation, so there are no impediments for army movement or building development.

mountains.png
Mountains
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -2
Movement is Blocked in Winter
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +100%
Population Capacity -80%
Development Growth -70%
Food Production -20%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Mountain terrain has high altitude and also steep slopes with relatively few and narrow flat areas, so it is more difficult for armies to cross and fight in it, and also more difficult to develop.

hills.png
Hills

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A terrain with hills has variations in the topography, but the slopes are not as steep nor as high as those of mountains, so the penalties are also not as bad.

plateau.png
Plateau
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -1
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

They represent relatively flat areas situated at high altitude, so they have some penalties compared to flatlands due to their elevation.

wetlands.png
Wetlands

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +75%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%

Wetlands are terrain that is partially flooded, generally due to being near a river, lake, or coast.


The following are the naval ones.

ocean.png
Ocean
Naval Attrition +1%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel.

deep_ocean.png
Deep Ocean
Naval Attrition +2%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, in the furthest areas from any coast.

coastal_ocean.png
Coastal Ocean
No special attributes

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, but in the areas closer to the coast.

inland_sea.png
Inland Sea
Can Freeze over during winter

Inland seas represent the land-enclosed seas like the Mediterranean or the Baltic.

narrows.png
Narrows

Can Freeze over during winter
Movement Cost for Navies +20%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Narrows are areas of sea with proximity of coast on many sides, like straits or the sea inside archipelagos, where there is not much space for movement.


Lakes, Salt Pans and Atolls exists, but are just graphical variants of Coastal Oceans, even if lakes could freeze over during winter.

Stay tuned, as next week we’ll delve into the wonderful world of military objectives.
 
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I would echo that climate should affect whether mountains are passable in winter. I visited the Chilean Andes, both near La Serena and San Pedro de Atacama, in the middle of winter and there was no snow to be seen, even at 4000 m. It was cold at night but during the day the temperature was quite pleasant.

Whether a mountain pass is passable in winter also depends on its elevation.
 
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Would certain climates and terrains increase or decrease demand for goods? Like beer and silk for hot places and coffee and wool for cold places?
 
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The Mediterranean is rightfully the best climate. And for those that have doubts, Medi. is a sub-type of Subtropical climate.

Why is it better thjen things like Oceanic, Subtropical proper, Continental,...? mild winters, seasons, and precipitation at the right time of the year for maximum farming efficiency. This allows for multiple, rich harvests and a wide verity of vegetations, which might not prosper in other good climates (Oceanic and subtropical having too much ain in the summer, and Contitnetal being too cold during the winters).

What I want to know is if deforesting is possible?
 
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Why does the cold arid icon have two big ass snowflakes and continental has a small one?

The winter is mild in cold arid, while in continental is moderate, where during winter the buildings actually get stalled and the food production is reduced way more...
 
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I think Devs did a good job, and I understund that there are a lot of suggestions in all of the posts. However I have a suggestion that I think is important

There are 4 Arid climates here based on Koppen, BWh (Hot Desert ) BWk (Cold Desert) BSk (Cold Semiarid // Steppes) and BSh (Semiarid // Dry Mediterranean).

Instead of doing two categories, Arid ( Hot Desert and Cold Desert, BWh + BWk) and Semiarid ( Steppes and Dry Med, BSk + BSh ), here there are Arid (Hot Desert BWh) and "Cold Arid" (the other 3 BWk, BSk, BSh) but it seems that Cold Arid, including those, is based primarily on Cold Desert (BWk, climate of literal deserts as Gobi or Atacama).

So Valencia or Odessa now has a climate that has:

- No snow
- No pop attraction
- No rain
- Same as Gobi Desert

I think Cold Arid should be turned into Semi arid (for Spain and steppes in Black Sea) and put Gobi and Atacama desert in other place. Or let here, but turn the Cold Arid into a more Dry climate. Otherwise Crimea and Spain has a extreme climate that is those of Atacama desert, Gobi Desert, and with a heavy malus. Valencia has rain and should have pop attraction


1736365289935.png
 
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Countries always have vision in:
  • land they are present in, e.g:
    • controlled land including occupations of foreign land
    • colonial charters
    • buildings
    • units
  • owned Core locations
    • even if they are occupied during war
Blocked vision from terrain counts only for peering into adjacent locations that you are not currently present in.
So say I build like a bank (don't know which buildings I can build in foreign locales, I assume banks) I'll always have vision in that province, even if an enemy occupies it?

Also do I get vision on allies and vassals?
 
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Would certain climates and terrains increase or decrease demand for goods? Like beer and silk for hot places and coffee and wool for cold places?
We have some things like that, pops demand more fur in climates with higher maximum winter for example. Suggestions for more things like that are welcome
 
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So say I build like a bank (don't know which buildings I can build in foreign locales, I assume banks) I'll always have vision in that province, even if an enemy occupies it?

Also do I get vision on allies and vassals?
Unsure about how occupation affects buildings in foreign locations, I'll have to check. Yes you get vision in allies and vassals.
 
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Actually thinking about it, latitude isn't gonna be too useful: the equation for figuring out location area while compensating for distortion won't be doable with the operations presently supported with in-game variable scripting (I think there's some trigonometry involved, or maybe a square root).

Fortunately making a script for this is easy, and doubly so because you can refer to locations by their color codes.

Though... @SaintDaveUK, what's the exact latitude cutoff for the top and bottom of the map?

Also, how many pixels wide is the map?
16384x8192

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...4-low-countries.1675505/page-21#post-29617396
 
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Doesn't impact exploration and terra Incognita, it only impacts tactical fog of war. You will know that there is a location with a forest there. You can even see the fort and city there. But you can't see if there is an enemy army hiding there.
So that means our explorers aren't going to have to keep going through each province until they stumble into the city of gold? Sounds boring.
 
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Climate is a challenge since you are trying to collapse a number of variables - summer temperature, winter temperature, total precipitation and the pattern of precipitation through out the year. For example, the difference between a humid subtropical climate and a hot summer Mediterranean climate in the Köppen climate classification is how the precipitation is distributed throughout the year.
 
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climate_population_density.jpg

I just want to share this greate graph made by geodiode (google his website, the reference is registered as spam) regarding global population density per climate type. Adding to previous posts, it seems that at least in the modern day, the subtropical climate support a denser population than the mediterranean climate. Geodiode's website also contains more information regarding climate, like the total population per climate type.
climate_population_total.jpg
 
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I don't think you really understood what I'm suggesting. I'm saying mountains should modify the potential severity of winter relative to the climate that the mountain location is in. Most of ethiopia seems to be in tropical climate that can't have winter at all so it doesn't apply there at all and most of the Andes seem to be in tropical, mediterranean or cold arid climate which would meant that there's still no winter in the tropical andes, no winter in the mediterranean andes but the in the cold arid mountains there's a chance that the max mild winter could be a max normal winter. In Europe, where the climate is continental normal winter could potentially go up to severe winter in the mountain locations. How would that not be realistic? Winter in the alps is usually significantly more severe than in flatlands of central germany but in EU5 they would be the same.
The issue is that you are forgetting the fact that the locality represent the valleys and that even despite that the valleys are already represented to be colder than they are, check a koppen climate map of Italy and you would see that places like Bolzano are oceanic or even subtropical there and are made to be continental in game as they averaged out the valley with higher ground.

Again you are saying they should do something they already do, hence double dipping. Continental climate is definided by having the coldest month colder than 0/3 degrees celsius and mountain valleys being continental compared to the plains does indeed represent the fact they have colder winters.
 
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We have some things like that, pops demand more fur in climates with higher maximum winter for example. Suggestions for more things like that are welcome
Mountainous and Cold areas should have increased Food storage capability due to easy access to snow and ice for refrigeration. Forests could benefit ship construction. Subtropical, Tropical, and other hotter areas should have higher demand for silk (clothing) during the summers. Salt, Meat and Alcohol consumption should increase in winters as well. Lower meat consumption in hotter climates because it spoils too fast. If enough wine is produced in a market, pops living in that market should prefer it over beer or spirits. Higher coal and lumber consumption for heating during winters.
 
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