Tinto Talks #45 - 8th of January 2025

[SaintDaveUK]

So if an arctic mountain isn't coastal or your country doesn't have the appropriate societal values the location is simply doomed to a pop cap of 1000?

I would suggest either reducing the penalties from climate and topography or making those modifiers multiplicative with each other.

Correct. You will have a hard time doing much in Arctic Mountains, they are deliberately a horrible terrain type.

Multiplicative modifiers are a can of worms and even harder to balance, we always avoid them if possible.

 

[giveasifire]

Do the incans have road building buffs in the andes/ all mountains since they built massive road networks across or are they pre-set province modifiers? Also with the artic mountains modifer putting most provinces to thousands of pops not allowing for the ~~10mil population (pre colombus IIRC) so basically will there be pop cap changes to historically populated regions?

 

[Znikii]

that was the idea

Do roads require upkeep / PM inputs? They could depend on the lvl and terrain type... any updates how river development is coming up?
For example how rivers interact with different terrain attribute types?

 

[Johan]

Can some of these be changed by the player? Like well developed grasslands turning into farmlands automatically, or wetlands being drained because the king wants his palace built here (I see you Versailles), or forests being cut into extinction in order to build a fleet.

Currently in our engine that is painted into the graphics, so the visuals wouldn't change.

 

[Johan]

I know but it is considered as inland sea. Same for the inland seas in Baltic and around Japan, places where there can be snowing and thus be cold enough to freeze water. Going with game logic, not really much with real life logic.

inland can freeze, but the climate won't allow it in the med

 

[ArVass]

Lakes, Salt Pans and Atolls exists, but are just graphical variants of Coastal Oceans, even if lakes could freeze over during winter.

If they are just like coastal oceans, but can freeze over, doesn't that make them more like inland seas instead?

There are inhabited atoll locations, no? Like in the Maldives. What modifiers and attributes do they have?

 

[ArVass]

The 3 types of terrain are quite hard coded as they impact the visuals and also so they are optimised, but you can add custom modifiers to locations like "Heavy Magical Activity" that has more or less the same effect as a terrain type.

Can these additional custom modifiers impact the visuals too? Like for example enchanted forests having a different look compared to normal forests or something

 

[zeruosi]

Rain is nice and absolutely fundamental to sustain life anywhere.

The inconvenience of getting your pants wet on the way to work doesn't compare with the inconvenience of the severe droughts ruining the harvest season.

I'm from a country with both Mediterranean and Oceanic climates, and the Mediterranean part suffers FAR more from climate-related issues than the Oceanic part, which is nice, mild, fertile and pleasant all year round.

Let me guess, are you from Spain?

 

[zeruosi]

You can't really compare modern urban conglomerations to pre-modern urban centres. Humid subtropical climates usually experience very heavy rainfall during the summers combined with major yearly floods. Mediterranean climates don't need to combat such harsh conditions.

Yes, but you should remember that while Bangladesh is experiencing floods, Greece is also struggling with drought

 

[zeruosi]

The Mediterranean is rightfully the best climate. And for those that have doubts, Medi. is a sub-type of Subtropical climate.

Why is it better thjen things like Oceanic, Subtropical proper, Continental,...? mild winters, seasons, and precipitation at the right time of the year for maximum farming efficiency. This allows for multiple, rich harvests and a wide verity of vegetations, which might not prosper in other good climates (Oceanic and subtropical having too much ain in the summer, and Contitnetal being too cold during the winters).

What I want to know is if deforesting is possible?

The maximum agricultural efficiency? Then let me ask you why India and China, which have a Mediterranean climate, have maintained a relatively high population density from classical times to modern times. But Europe doesn't have it?
The suitable precipitation, abundant vegetation, and multiple agricultural intercropping that you mentioned are not exclusive to the Mediterranean region. I hope you know that 70% of the population outside of Europe is distributed in various parts of the world.
Even if we only consider pre modern society, not all of the world's largest cities are concentrated in Europe.

 

[Cadentspider5]

All of this looks certainly amazing, loving this expanded mechanics on terrains.

I do have a very big question in my opinion: How does AI interact with those vision limitations? Currently in EU4 Ai has awareness of things it sometimes shouldn't have (for example you moving an army towards an army of an AI that the AI doesnt have vision on, they will instantly move away).

Will AI ignore this "vision" stuff and therefore be kind gimmicky or they will have limited vision and awareness as a player would have? (would love the second option a more fair approach)

 

[Znikii]

Yes, but you should remember that while Bangladesh is experiencing floods, Greece is also struggling with drought

back then not as much as today, and of verious degrees and not every year. Fishing, orchards, sheeps are not really effected by drought and even in severe drought you may lose harvest and on the other hand floods are destructive not only to agriculture but also to infrastructure, buidlings, livestock,... not much you can do. Plsaces like Sicily have 2, sometimes 3 harvests every years....

 

[Znikii]

The maximum agricultural efficiency? Then let me ask you why India and China, which have a Mediterranean climate, have maintained a relatively high population density from classical times to modern times. But Europe doesn't have it?
The suitable precipitation, abundant vegetation, and multiple agricultural intercropping that you mentioned are not exclusive to the Mediterranean region. I hope you know that 70% of the population outside of Europe is distributed in various parts of the world.
Even if we only consider pre modern society, not all of the world's largest cities are concentrated in Europe.

Who would have guessed that 70% pf tje population outside of Europe is distributed in various parts of the world. And the other 30%?

So yeah, you do agree that Med.c. is much more favourble for Human living. Large part of Caliufornia, S. Australia, large poarts on Southeastern coast of S. Americas,... all enjoy Med.C. and look and behold all of those places are huge centers of human population and agricultural output.

so whats even your point you are trying to make?

 

[Johan]

Will other seasonal effects aside from winter make an appearance? (Monsoons, droughts, ...)

there will be some yes

 

[zeruosi]

Who would have guessed that 70% pf tje population outside of Europe is distributed in various parts of the world. And the other 30%?

So yeah, you do agree that Med.c. is much more favourble for Human living. Large part of Caliufornia, S. Australia, large poarts on Southeastern coast of S. Americas,... all enjoy Med.C. and look and behold all of those places are huge centers of human population and agricultural output.

so whats even your point you are trying to make?

Do you know that 50% of the world's population is concentrated in eastern and southern Asia?However, 50% of the remaining 70% are concentrated in the monsoon climate zone. As early as the Song Dynasty, China's population had reached 120 million, accounting for one-third of the world's population at that time. The population of India is slightly lower, but still over 80 million. How many people were there in Europe during the same period?
And aren't those places loved because of modern technology's irrigation of water for agriculture and foreign imports. Food doesn't grow out of supermarket shelves, my friend.
Undoubtedly, the monsoon climate zone provided the largest amount of food and population in the ancient world, as well as several of the largest cities in human history.
The population of Constantinople was approximately 500000, while the population of Lin'an in the Southern Song Dynasty was over 1.2 million, and the population of Kaifeng in the Northern Song Dynasty was over 2 million. In the Ming Dynasty, there were 2.54 million in Nanjing and 2.32 million in Beijing. During the Tang Dynasty, Chang'an had a population of over 1.3 million.
I'm not quite sure about the population history of India, but Delhi has a population of at least one million.

 

[ArVass]

Currently in our engine that is painted into the graphics, so the visuals wouldn't change.

I was hoping you would elaborate on how the map visuals work, and perhaps look.

Can for example an additional, for example, "Heavy Magical Activity" modifier also have an effect on the visuals (like some additional fog particle effect or changing the type of tree models that are present on the map) like terrain attributes do? Or is it THAT hard-coded?

If the map is entirely pre-baked, is there also a map editor such as in CK3 where the map visuals can be custom sculpted?

If the map is pre-baked, might as well hand-craft it

 

[Johan]

Do locations have a base population capacity or is it all derived from these attributes?

vegetation sets the base values, and there are lots of factors affecting it.

 

[Johan]

What does no precipitation means? Can we know yet?

we will talk about it later

 

[Johan]

I may look dumb but why Arid climate can attract pops when there is free capacity but Cold Arid cannot?

Cold = bad

 

[Johan]

What about Plateau Wasteland that made its way into yesterday's Maghreb Feedback?View attachment 1241114

that looks like a bug