• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Talks #45 - 8th of January 2025

Welcome to another Tinto Talks! Happy Wednesday where we talk about our super-secret game with the codename Project Caesar, asking you for feedback!


Today we’ll go into the details of how terrain works in the game. To iterate from the Map-Tinto-Talks from almost a year ago, each location has three different attributes instead of a single one as previous games had. This creates more variation and allows us more granular control over game play.

Each location has a climate, a topography and a vegetation set. Sea locations do not have vegetation though.


Climate

climate.png


The climate of a location impacts how well pops can live there, including how much food can be produced. It also affects the maximum winter level of a location.

tropical.png
Tropical

Population Capacity +50%
Development Growth -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Tropical represents areas with high average temperatures and no winter.

subtropical.png
Subtropical

Population Capacity +100%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Subtropical represents areas with high average temperatures and mild winters.

oceanic.png
Oceanic
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Oceanic represents areas with mild winters but high humidity.

arid.png
Arid
Wheat Production -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Precipitation
No Winters

Arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water.

cold_arid.png
Cold Arid

Wheat Production -10%
No Precipitation
Max Winter is Mild

Cold arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water but experiences winters.

mediterranean.png
Mediterranean
Population Capacity +150%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Mediterranean represents areas with a perfect climate!

continental.png
Continental
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Normal

Continental represents areas with cold winters.

arctic.png
Arctic
Population Capacity -55%
Development Growth -25%
Life Expectancy -5
Max Winter is Severe

Arctic represents areas with very cold winters.

Vegetation

vegetation.png


Vegetation represents the foliage cover of a location.

desert.png
Desert

Can have Sandstorms
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
RGO Build time +50%
Road Build time +100%
Development Growth -10%
Food Production -33%
Population Capacity +10k

Deserts are barren landscapes with little precipitation and almost no potential for plant or animal life.

sparse.png
Sparse
Road Build time -10%
Population Capacity +25k

Sparse represent large flat areas of land with few or no trees.

grasslands.png
Grasslands
Food Production +10%
Population Capacity 50k

Grasslands represent terrain dominated by grass with little or no trees or shrubs.

farmland.png
Farmland
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
Road Build time +10%
Development Growth +10%
Population Capacity +100k
RGO Maximum Size +10%
Food Production +33%

Farmland represents anthropogenic terrain, devoted to crops and/or extensive pastures.

woods.png
Woods
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Road Build time +25%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -20%
Food Production +10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Woods represent terrain with less dense vegetation than forests.


forest.png
Forest
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +33%
Population Capacity +25k
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Forest represents terrain with dense vegetation.


jungle.png
Jungle
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +50%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -50%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A jungle represents terrain with dense forest and tangled vegetation that makes doing anything on the land difficult.




Topography

topography.png


Topography represents the roughness and elevation of the land within a location. Flatter Topography is generally better for growing Towns and Cities while rougher Topography is easier to defend.


These first ones are land related topographies.

flatland.png
Flatland

No special attributes

Flatland represents terrain that does not have any major topographic variation, so there are no impediments for army movement or building development.

mountains.png
Mountains
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -2
Movement is Blocked in Winter
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +100%
Population Capacity -80%
Development Growth -70%
Food Production -20%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Mountain terrain has high altitude and also steep slopes with relatively few and narrow flat areas, so it is more difficult for armies to cross and fight in it, and also more difficult to develop.

hills.png
Hills

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A terrain with hills has variations in the topography, but the slopes are not as steep nor as high as those of mountains, so the penalties are also not as bad.

plateau.png
Plateau
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -1
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

They represent relatively flat areas situated at high altitude, so they have some penalties compared to flatlands due to their elevation.

wetlands.png
Wetlands

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +75%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%

Wetlands are terrain that is partially flooded, generally due to being near a river, lake, or coast.


The following are the naval ones.

ocean.png
Ocean
Naval Attrition +1%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel.

deep_ocean.png
Deep Ocean
Naval Attrition +2%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, in the furthest areas from any coast.

coastal_ocean.png
Coastal Ocean
No special attributes

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, but in the areas closer to the coast.

inland_sea.png
Inland Sea
Can Freeze over during winter

Inland seas represent the land-enclosed seas like the Mediterranean or the Baltic.

narrows.png
Narrows

Can Freeze over during winter
Movement Cost for Navies +20%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Narrows are areas of sea with proximity of coast on many sides, like straits or the sea inside archipelagos, where there is not much space for movement.


Lakes, Salt Pans and Atolls exists, but are just graphical variants of Coastal Oceans, even if lakes could freeze over during winter.

Stay tuned, as next week we’ll delve into the wonderful world of military objectives.
 
  • 229Like
  • 79Love
  • 10
  • 7
  • 4
Reactions:
Vegetation represents the foliage cover of a location.

View attachment 1240999Desert
Can have Sandstorms
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
RGO Build time +50%
Road Build time +100%
Development Growth -10%
Food Production -33%
Population Capacity +10k

Deserts are barren landscapes with little precipitation and almost no potential for plant or animal life.
Possibly said already, but "little precipitation" belongs to the "arid" class of climates. While as you notice using the word "desert" makes it easy to fall into the trap that this foliage level is only for some specific climates.

It should either be "Sandy areas" (then you get beaches and sand deserts rolled into one) or "Badlands" (which rolls sandy deserts and rocky deserts into one). (Or, sure "Barren" could also work as a vegetation description)
 
  • 5Like
Reactions:
Mediterranean climates are often too dry/hot to perform agriculture all year round. Summer is often devastating for lots of crops, especially in Hot Summer Mediterranean Climates. Considering Northern Italy hosted the largest population density of Europe (Subtropical), and so did subtropical Asia, I don't agree Mediterranean should be 'the best' climate in the game.

Oceanic being equal to Continental is also not very realistic.

Oceanic +75%, Mediterranean +100% and Subtropical +125% would make more sense imo.
EDIT: actually, mediterranean should imo be equivalent to oceanic. Looking at which cities/nations line up with oceanic/mediterranean, mediterranean does not look like a much better region vs oceanic, pop-cap wise...


Yes, Population capacity isnt about the comfort of living, Meditarranean is more chill to live in, but subtropical should definitely have more population capacity than Mediterranean and all other climates
 
  • 9Like
  • 5
Reactions:
changing terrain is an engine issue
We know it is bad, but if PC is like EU4 and we play it for 10y+ this demand will not stop, maybe you need to rework the engine.

I know you won't do it now (cause it will delay the game for at least a year) but in the timespan of 500y the vegetation of the world changed, and there will be the point where we want to change it with our gameplay. (But now we know what will be in the 2.0 Patch in 2030 ;))
 
  • 9Like
  • 3
Reactions:
Yes, Population capacity isnt about the comfort of living, Meditarranean is more chill to live in, but subtropical should definitely have more population capacity than Mediterranean and all other climates
Don't tunnel vision on climates only. imo presence of more flatlands & farmlands in subtropics, as well as Rice rgo with it's insanely good food output will moore then make up for it
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Don't tunnel vision on climates only. imo presence of more flatlands & farmlands in subtropics, as well as Rice rgo with it's insanly good food output will moore then make up for it

Food production doesnt increase pop capacity and rice only gives 10 while others give 8 mostly,

I dont tunnel vision into climates only, I just agreed that subtropical should give more pop capacity than meditarrenaen as it is more resourceful but also not untamed like tropical
 
  • 4Like
Reactions:
Don't tunnel vision on climates only. imo presence of more flatlands & farmlands in subtropics, as well as Rice rgo with it's insanly good food output will moore then make up for it
However, we still have a large exception. Northern China and Eastern Europe, which do not eat rice.
The harsher continental climate in the game makes these densely populated areas less populated. And now northern China is not farmland but grassland terrain.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Food production doesnt increase pop capacity and rice only gives 10 while others give 8 mostly,
Also, miscellaneous grains are offered for 6 points
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Food production doesnt increase pop capacity and rice only gives 10 while others give 8 mostly,

I dont tunnel vision into climates only, I just agreed that subtropical should give more pop capacity than meditarrenaen as it is more resourceful but also not untamed like tropical
That's 25% more then wheat produces and 25% is alot more. High pop capacity means nothing if you cant fill/feed it, and subtropics will have much easier time reaching cap. Areas with Med.c. will have to invest more (either with buidlings or with trade) into better food supply which is an opportunity costs. Subtropics will thus be able to invest more early into things like expansive and luxurious goods production giving them huge ROI snowball potential...
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
That's 25% more then wheat produces and 25% is alot more. High pop capacity means nothing if you cant fill/feed it, and subtropics will have much easier time reaching cap and/or areas with Med.c. will have to invest more (either with buidlings or with trade) into better food supply which is an opportunity costs. Subtropics will thus be able to invest more into things like expansive and luxurious goods production giving htme huge ROI snowball potential...

In tinto maps of India and China, there were locations with population above the cap

If they dont fix it, China and India populations will not grow and Europe will pass their population by 1600s lol, as they will just stay at maximum cap as they already do in 1337 lol

More food is litteraly useless when you dont have population capacity as you can purchase food from markets, but not capacity

I am telling you that Subtropical both had bigger food production and population, it is a fact
 
Last edited:
  • 5
  • 2Like
Reactions:
In tinto maps of India and China, there were locations with population above the cap

If they dont fix it, China and India populations will not grop and Europe will pass their population by 1600s lol, as they will just stay at maximum cap ad they already do in 1337 lol

More food is litteraly useless when you dont have population capacity as you can purchase food from markets, but not capacity

I am telling you that Subtropical both had bigger food production and population, it is a fact
Buying food from the maktes means not buying something else from the markets. Pop cap is not static. It's can be increased with buildings and urban areas. So what if they start with some areas above the cap, all that means is you have easier time populating less populatd areas, huge supply of bodies for your armies and labour force in production buidlings. If nothing else, Black Death will soon deal with overpopulated ares.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Btw
Buying food from the maktes means not buying something else from the markets. Pop cap is not static. It's can be increased with buildings and urban areas. So what if they start with some areas above the cap, all that means is you have easier time populating less populatd areas, huge supply of bodies for your armies and labour force in production buidlings. If nothing else, Black Death will soon deal with overpopulated ares.


China, India already has extremely high development, they cant increase development to increase the capacity anymore or it would be far less effectice than other parts of the world.

Pop cap cant be increased with buildings you are wrong as there is no building shown that dıes this and they didnt told anything about this before.

Also even if black death causes early game pop loss, the game soans 500 year lmao, and Populations of India and China reached above the 1337 numbers pretty easily.

I dont know why they have to deal with population capacity lol, meanwhile all other parts of the world will grow easily
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
We know it is bad, but if PC is like EU4 and we play it for 10y+ this demand will not stop, maybe you need to rework the engine.

I know you won't do it now (cause it will delay the game for at least a year) but in the timespan of 500y the vegetation of the world changed, and there will be the point where we want to change it with our gameplay. (But now we know what will be in the 2.0 Patch in 2030 ;))
We share the opinion that it would be a perfect feature for Caesar, but if it was as simple as us agreeing then it would have fixed it 12 months ago. Unfortunately it's a bit deeper than that. With the unprecedented worldwide level of detail that Caesar has, it's a unique engineering challenge to make the required improvements to the graphical system as we really are on the cutting edge in several respects.
 
  • 58Like
  • 12
  • 1
Reactions:
Btw



China, India already has extremely high development, they cant increase development to increase the capacity anymore or it would be far less effectice than other parts of the world.

Pop cap cant be increased with buildings you are wrong as there is no building shown that dıes this and they didnt told anything about this before.

Also even if black death causes early game pop loss, the game soans 500 year lmao, and Populations of India and China reached above the 1337 numbers pretty easily.

I dont know why they have to deal with population capacity lol, meanwhile all other parts of the world will grow easily
Why they couldn't increase development? Buildings -> Development, no? ofc efficiency of increasing it has diminishing returns, but thats true for everybody everywhere.


No they won't. Food supply and other good production will be much harder hurdle compared to what ever is your starting pop capacity.
 
  • 4
Reactions:
Cold = bad

If Cold arid doesnt attract Pop because of its cold then Continental shouldnt attract too

IMG_7884.png


Bcz There is no way Ankara and Konya is unattractive but Erzurum and some Russian town is attractive

(I am in Ankara currently)
 
Last edited:
  • 16Like
  • 3
Reactions:
Why they couldn't increase development? Buildings -> Development, no? ofc efficiency of increasing it has diminishing returns, but thats true for everybody everywhere.


No they won't. Food supply and other good production will be much harder hurdle compared to what ever is your starting pop capacity.

Yes development increase is diminishing which means that China and India wont get anymore pop capacity increase and development growth during 500 years lol
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
changing terrain is an engine issue
In that case, could it be psuedo changed through special modifiers that effectively change the location into another kind of terrain? Like a 'polders' modifier provided certain conditions are met in the netherlands that removes the wetlands debuff or a 'terrace farm' modifier in the Andean mountains. That way, graphically, nothing changes, and performance wise things remain the same, but gameplay wise it'll reflect the development of the region in spite of the different terrain.
 
  • 3
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Yes development increase is diminishing which means that China and India wont get anymore pop capacity increase and development growth during 500 years lol
What kind of leaps of logic is that? Why they wouldn't get any more pop capacity & development over the time span? There are also tehnologies and govermenbt policices that will increase further the cap.
 
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
Buying food from the maktes means not buying something else from the markets. Pop cap is not static. It's can be increased with buildings and urban areas. So what if they start with some areas above the cap, all that means is you have easier time populating less populatd areas, huge supply of bodies for your armies and labour force in production buidlings. If nothing else, Black Death will soon deal with overpopulated ares.
However, although there are records of the Black Death in China and India, to be honest, this is only one of the thousands of ordinary plague records in China's history, and did not cause the massive population decline in Europe. (Even worse than a Yellow River flood)
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: