Tinto Talks #45 - 8th of January 2025

[K_lenz]

looks good, one question.

Should development push towards something other than farmland for city/town (urban?)?

You could make a point given that London location is so small that by 1800 it was all urban. But I think it's some very niche cases. Most of the locations are to big compared to they're citys even in 1800 to be considerate urban.

 

[Bestiliand]

We have two caracteristic climates here in the Mediterranean sea.

The first is the Mediterranean, Koppen Cs.

Mediterranean is caracterized by Warm and Dry Summer, Temperate and Rainy Winter. Anual precipitations are low - mid.

I don't think it should have a bigger agricultural income (which is represented with Population Capacity). Nether these Spain, Italy, Greece and Turkey regions are densely populated or something. Irrigation is needed and there are less rain than in other climates (Oceanic, Subtropical)

Then there is the Semi arid cold climate, or Steppe climate. A subcategory is the Continental Mediterranean.

The Semiarid has low precipitations and warm summers, but has winters and has precipitations, and is in no way hostile to life.

Especifically the Continental Mediterranean "has same precipitations than Mediterranean, but winter is colder". In the case of Spain where I live, there is not much difference in these two climates (more between particular regions). The Semiarid has low rain (as Med) hot summer (as Med) and with colder winter. I dont think Valencia has less agriculture outcome than Badajoz, I would say the opposite.

Then there is the Cold Arid climate, that devs are using. Cold Arid means deserts, real deserts with snow and winter season. The Gobi Desert, Turkmenistan, Atacama Desert, Andes Mountains. Deserts, an extreme climate for life.

And for some reason that I consider unwise, the developers consider Mediterranean climate the best (150% population capacity, compared to 100% Subtropical 50% Oceanic) but when accounting for population these areas are not overpopulated.

But worse, they merged Cold Arid (Extreme desert climate) and Semi-arid. So now, half of Spain is perfect climate and the other people even settle. Same in Turkey or Italy.

Is the 3 or 4 time I say XD, but I think developers should think again about it, even more considering is a studio in Sitges with Spanish people. If the game is now balanced this way, I dont know, rebalance it XD. I think is not correctly represented

 

[Znikii]

Mediterranean areas that are bathed in rain and snow

Mediterranean areas, that are dry but bathed in rain and snow during the Winter and Autumn months,

Can you please point me out on the map where those areas are?

Why it seems people understand pop cap = pop growth + food production?

 

[Inzano]

Mediterranean areas that are bathed in rain and snow

Can you please point me out on the map where those areas are?

Why it seems people understand pop cap = pop growth + food production?

Brač last two winters. xD

 

[Ispil]

looks good, one question.

Should development push towards something other than farmland for city/town (urban?)?

I'm tracking the actual extent of land being "usable for agriculture" as a separate thing. Towns and cities take away from the total amount of arable land by virtue of being a town or city. In small locations that already have next to no arable land, having it be a city will reduce that to effectively zero.

There's a lot of complexity and I won't really be able to hammer out a good system until I have the game in front of me.

 

[Dev2150]

@Johan you said in TT #6 that terrain types affect proximity, yet it doesn't seem to be the case

 

[korandder]

I think an element of confusion with with Mediterranean versus Subtropical versus Continental is the division PC has adopted does not map to the Köppen climate classification. In the Köppen classification all three of these temperate climates have the same limit for winter - the mean temperature of the coldest month is above -3 C (or 0 C in some variations) but below 18 C. Subtropical (Cfa) and hot summer Mediterranean (Csa) classifications have the same summer requirement - the warmest month averages above 22 C. Oceanic (Cfb) and warm summer Mediterranean (Csb) classifications require the hottest month to be cooler than 22 C on average but require four months with a mean temperature above 10 C. There are also subpolar oceanic (Cfc) and cold summer Mediterranean (Csc) variations when there are one to three months warmer than 10 C.

Where Mediterranean climates differ from the other temperate climates is in their patterns of precipitation. Mediterranean climates have dry summers and wet winters while subtropical climates have drier winters and wetter summers and oceanic climates have relatively even precipitation through out the year. There are also monsoon variations of temperate (Cwa, Cwb, Cwc) where most of the yearly rainfall is in a few summer months.

In the Köppen climate classification Tropical climates have the true 'no winter' climates, with no month being colder than 18 C on average.

The Subtropical PC climate encompass the hot summer Köppen climates (Cfa, Csa, Cwa) while the Oceanic PC climates include the warm summer Köppen one (Cfb, Csb, Cwb). The cold summer Köppen climates get lumped into the Arctic PC climate (which is a real mixed bag).

The warm winter Mediterranean climate of PC does not map to any Köppen classification while having numerious locations whose winters are just as cold as some oceanic or subtropical ones. There are also a lot of subtropical locations with warmer winters than Mediterranean ones. If I wanted to keep the climate classification of PC simple, I would drop the Mediterranean classification and make the existing Mediterranean locations subtropical.

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

That's nice! You could also enjoy https://www.researchgate.net/public...ern_Europe_and_East_Asia_15th_to_19th_century for forest etc

Thanks, that’s interesting!
But unfortunately, there will be no dynamic vegetation in the game.

 

[Zerodv]

The Subtropical PC climate encompass the hot summer Köppen climates (Cfa, Csa, Cwa) while the Oceanic PC climates include the warm summer Köppen one (Cfb, Csb, Cwb). The cold summer Köppen climates get lumped into the Arctic PC climate (which is a real mixed bag).

The warm winter Mediterranean climate of PC does not map to any Köppen classification while having numerious locations whose winters are just as cold as some oceanic or subtropical ones. There are also a lot of subtropical locations with warmer winters than Mediterranean ones. If I wanted to keep the climate classification of PC simple, I would drop the Mediterranean classification and make the existing Mediterranean locations subtropical.

This is not correct

Mediterranean in PC contains only Csa

Oceanic contains Csb and Cfb

Subtropical contains Cfa and Cwa

It looks like Cfc(rare), Cwb, Cwc(super rare) and Csc(rare) look to be continental(yunnan being continental is kinda weird ngl)

 

[Zerodv]

Seeing such drastic differences between Mediterranean Spain and Turkey (apparently the Garden of Eden) and central Spain and Turkey (a place so horrid that people wouldn't migrate there if there was space, by the game's own mechanics) is just weird.
Central Spain and Turkey should be worse off, but you'd think it'd be way less sudden and drastic.

For Spain that's fair, but inland highland Turkey can be 6-12 C colder than the western and southern coast during winter, the difference is actually that big. For Spain the difference is maximum 8 between Lisbon/Seville and old Castille/Leon

 

[korandder]

This is not correct

Mediterranean in PC contains only Csa

Oceanic contains Csb and Cfb

Subtropical contains Cfa and Cwa

It looks like Cfc(rare), Cwb, Cwc(super rare) and Csc(rare) look to be continental(yunnan being continental is kinda weird ngl)

Yes, the Mediterranean locations in PC are all Csa but the definition of Mediterranean given into this Tinto Talk (no winter) does not correspond to any Köppen type nor do many locations with the Mediterranean climate type have 'no winter'. If the climate types roughly follow Köppen types, Mediterranean should be the same as subtropical as they have same winters but only differ on whether they are rainer in summer or winter.

If you want a type in between subtropical/oceanic and tropical with warmer winters, it would not map neatly to Mediterranean. It would be a mix of most of the subtropical and Mediterranean locations.

 

[Fjellfyr]

Correct. You will have a hard time doing much in Arctic Mountains, they are deliberately a horrible terrain type.

Multiplicative modifiers are a can of worms and even harder to balance, we always avoid them if possible.

Sounds like some provinces in Norway need to be changed then, they already have the wrong climate type in several locations which quite a few people have pointed out in the map thread. I think more than half of norway's fruit output is in locations labeled as artic mountains, when IRL these places have oceanic climate or continental climate. Poor Hardanger, Voss, and Sogn, not to speak of the coast of Nordland.

Also will lead to some narrows that should remain icefree freezing due to it being tied to severe winters which happen in arctic locations. Walking across the main branch of Sognefjorden would for sure be ahistorical. There are some branches of it that can freeze, but vast majority of the fjord don't see ice even in the coldest of winters.

 

[Znikii]

Sounds like some provinces in Norway need to be changed then, they already have the wrong climate type in several locations which quite a few people have pointed out in the map thread. I think more than half of norway's fruit output is in locations labeled as artic mountains, when IRL these places have oceanic climate or continental climate. Poor Hardanger, Voss, and Sogn, not to speak of the coast of Nordland.

Also will lead to some narrows that should remain icefree freezing due to it being tied to severe winters which happen in arctic locations. Walking across the main branch of Sognefjorden would for sure be ahistorical. There are some branches of it that can freeze, but vast majority of the fjord don't see ice even in the coldest of winters.

Why not first check maps for yourself?
Coastal sea cant freeze, and places you mention have Oceanic and Continental climates....

 

[Dev2150]

I understand you cannot change mid-game the terrain, but can you add more via mods?

 

[Fjellfyr]

Why not first check maps yourself?
Coastal sea cant freeze, and places you mention have Oceanic and Continental climates....
View attachment 1241730View attachment 1241732

Sogndal, Aurland, Voss, Ullensvang are very clearly arctic on the map, both in original map,, and in the world map from this week.

They fjords also classified as narrows, not coastal ocean according to scandi post. Though they may not be able to freeze since the sea zone might not be arctic? It is somewhat unclear on what the exact conditions are for freezing.

What do you mean check the maps?

 

[Sleelan]

Why are Forests half the population capacity of Jungles if they're both described as "very dense vegetation"?

 

[Dev2150]

Why are Forests half the population capacity of Jungles if they're both described as "very dense vegetation"?

Yeah, it's weird to have higher pop capacity where there's a higher disease rate

 

[Znikii]

View attachment 1241735

Sogndal, Aurland, Voss, Ullensvang are very clearly arctic on the map, both in original map,, and in the world map from this week.

View attachment 1241737

You can also see the fjords are their own sea zone, with a different colouring from surrounding coastal zone on the map for ocean terrain.

What do you mean check the maps?

well, those places are kinda hilly and mountainous. Eeeeh, hard to tell. Boknjaforden does look of different colour, not Sognjefjorden... eitherway, as long as fjords (sea locations) are labelled as continental/oceanic, means they won't have harsh winters thus it's highly unlikely they will ever freeze

 

[Fjellfyr]

well, those places are kindy hilly and mountainous. Eeeeh, hard to tell. Boknjaforden does look of different colour, not Sognjefjorden... eitherway, as long as fjords (sea locations) are labelled as continental/oceanic, means they won't have harsh winters thus it's highly unlikely they will ever freeze

They're absolutely hilly and mountainous, thats fine and should stay. But as it stands places like Sogndal and Voss are classified as oceanic IRL, as is the coast and valleys of the locations at large. There are places that are classified as arctic in the region, but by large those spots are inside the surrounding wastelands, not the locations themselves. Its just kinda strange to see areas known for their bountiful fruit gardens as "horrid place nobody would ever try to live" due to being classified as arctic.

Hope you're right about the fjords though, if so thats a non-issue. A more detailed map is in scandi map that show them as narrows. It is somewhat unclear on what exactly triggers freezing of narrows, as far as I understood it from various comments its severe winters + narrows. Though that means no frozen beating of the danes by the swedes.

 

[Znikii]

They're absolutely hilly and mountainous, thats fine and should stay. But as it stands places like Sogndal and Voss are classified as oceanic IRL, as is the coast and valleys of the locations at large. There are places that are classified as arctic in the region, but by large those spots are inside the surrounding wastelands, not the locations themselves. Its just kinda strange to see areas known for their bountiful fruit gardens as "horrid place nobody would ever try to live" due to being classified as arctic.

Hope you're right about the fjords though, if so thats a non-issue. A more detailed map is in scandi map that show them as narrows. It is somewhat unclear on what exactly triggers freezing of narrows, as far as I understood it from various comments its severe winters + narrows. Though that means no frozen beating of the danes by the swedes.

Well, they will benefit from a coastal bonus What kind of fruit garden are they know for? I would guess different berries? You can clearly see fjords (sea locations) have a green colour, so no harsh winters