Tinto Talks #45 - 8th of January 2025

[Wildrake]

I know "devs are Spanish" is a running joke but the idea that Valencia has the same climate which does not attract pop migration as the Gobi desert is... uhm.

 

[Mrkew]

"Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land" Very excited about this being a thing.
Also, I for one liked "combat width" much more than "frontage"

 

[ArVass]

Thinking about the frequent Yellow River floods in EU4, I don't think the high development at the beginning of the game can have any effect.

Different game, not a very relevant assumption, high development will definitely have a LOT of effect. India and China have very highly developed locations with massive populations, several in the 300-400k range, I am pretty sure it will be the decisive factor when it comes to population cap

 

[Johan]

If Cold arid doesnt attract Pop because of its cold then Continental shouldnt attract too

There are LOTS of other reasons for migration attraction as well..

 

[Johan]

I understand that graphics are very important for the base game, but for players who don't mind if a "farmland province has trees on it would it be possible to make a modding backend that allows for mods to change a province's terrain without changing its graphics?

it exists yes.

 

[zeruosi]

Different game, not a very relevant assumption, high development will definitely have a LOT of effect. India and China have very highly developed locations with massive populations, several in the 300-400k range, I am pretty sure it will be the decisive factor when it comes to population cap

Because it has appeared in EU4, until the paradox clearly states that it is impossible to continue doing so, I can only temporarily assume that it may still be the case in the upcoming EU5.

 

[Gurtannon]

My suggested climates with modifiers:

Monsoon:

+200% Pop Capacity
Max winter is mild
Free Capacity Attracts pops
+%10 Food production

Subtropical

+125% Pop Capacity
Max winter is mild
Free capacity attracts pops

Mediterranean

+100% Pop Capacity
No winters
+10% Development growth
Free capacity attracts pops

Tropical

+50% pop capacity
No winters
Development growth -10%
Life expectancy -5
Free capacity attracts pops

Oceanic:

+75% pop capacity
Max winter is mild
Free capacity attracts pops

Continental

+50% pop capacity
Max winter is normal
Free capacity attracts pops

Harsh Continental

Max winter is severe
-10% Development growth
-10% Food production

Cold Arid

-25% Pop capacity
-10% Development growth
Max winter is mild
Life expectancy -5
No precipitation
-25% Food production

Cold Semiarid

Max winter is mild
No precipitation
Free capacity attracts pops
-10% Food production

Arid

-25% Pop capacity
-10% Development growth
No winters
No precipitation
Life expectancy -5
-25% Food production


SemiArid

No winters
No precipitation
Free capacity attracts pops
-10% Food production

Arctic

-55% Pop capacity
-25% Development growth
Life expectancy -5
Max winter is severe
-25% Food production


————additional comments:
It would allow more gradual transformation right now one location in Russia is Continental and one location later it is Deadly Arctic xd, or same about Arid

Monsoon is buffed to simulate large population of India and China

Mediterranean being most chill climate to live in should be represented by development growth buff instead of more pop capacity than subtropical

Egypt may need additional tweak such as nile river giving +25% food production, +50% Pop capacity etc

Instead of tropical, arid, cold arid giving -5 life expectancy, jungle and desert vegetations might give it, so that we wouldnt get -5 Life expectancy in Bangkok etc

 

[ArVass]

it exists yes.

Can the graphical terrain be modded to be influenced by other factors besides the base three?

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

Potatoes too since they require more water than wheat and they are generally more suited for colder climates since they evolved in the Andes

I think that at the start potatoes are already present in the regions where they naturally grow, the Columbian exchange will spread them into Western Europe with appropriate climates, so there is no real need for this.

That is why I'm not sure about rice as well, because I found only ~4-5 locations in Myanmar, Iraq and Egypt so far in the whole map that has Arid climate and Rice as a Raw Good. But in Iraq and Egypt it gets a ton of water from the rivers. Rice in the game grows where it is expected to be. So I do not think it is necessary to add excessive modifiers.

Wheat is really presented globally, so the malus makes sense.

 

[Zhang Yichao]

I might not think so that a Mediterranean climate has a higher population capacity than a subtropical or tropical area with a monsoon climate, where rain and heat do not coincide, resulting in naturally inadequate conditions for agricultural production. If the land is to have a higher population capacity, the first condition is to be able to do good agricultural work, and a comfortable climate is only secondary. Babur once remarked in his memoirs that the climate in India was very unpleasant and that the food in India was unpalatable to him, but this did not prevent the Ganges Valley from hosting what was probably the largest population density in the world at that time. As for Egypt on the Mediterranean coast, it was a special case, which is why for a long time only the mouth of the Nile River had a highly developed agriculture, rather than the food-producing belt around the Mediterranean Sea, which is also the origin of the title “breadbasket of the Mediterranean”.

 

[Inzano]

My suggested climates with modifiers:

Monsoon:

+200% Pop Capacity
Max winter is mild
Free Capacity Attracts pops
+%10 Food production

Subtropical

+125% Pop Capacity
Max winter is mild
Free capacity attracts pops

Mediterranean

+100% Pop Capacity
No winters
+10% Development growth
Free capacity attracts pops

Tropical

+50% pop capacity
No winters
Development growth -10%
Life expectancy -5
Free capacity attracts pops

Oceanic:

+75% pop capacity
Max winter is mild
Free capacity attracts pops

Continental

+50% pop capacity
Max winter is normal
Free capacity attracts pops

Harsh Continental

Max winter is severe
-10% Development growth
-10% Food production

Cold Arid

-25% Pop capacity
-10% Development growth
Max winter is mild
Life expectancy -5
No precipitation
-25% Food production

Cold Semiarid

Max winter is mild
No precipitation
Free capacity attracts pops
-10% Food production

Arid

-25% Pop capacity
-10% Development growth
No winters
No precipitation
Life expectancy -5
-25% Food production


SemiArid

No winters
No precipitation
Free capacity attracts pops
-10% Food production

Arctic

-55% Pop capacity
-25% Development growth
Life expectancy -5
Max winter is severe
-25% Food production


————
It would allow more gradual transformation right now one location in Russia is Continental and one location later it is Deadly Arctic xd, or same about Arid

Monsoon is buffed to simulate large population of India and China

Mediterranean being most chill climate to live in should be represented by development growth buff instead of more pop capacity than subtropical

Egypt may need additional tweak such as nile river giving +25% food production, +50% Pop capacity etc

Would not be Cold Arid:

-25% Pop capacity
-10% Development growth
Max winter is normal
Life expectancy -5
No precipitation
-25% Food production

?

 

[Gurtannon]

Would not be Cold Arid:

-25% Pop capacity
-10% Development growth
Max winter is normal
Life expectancy -5
No precipitation
-25% Food production

?

Since they decided it to be mild I havent touched but yea, I agree might be Normal too

 

[Farfour]

Why do wetlands dampen food production? How (if at all) are rich flood plains represented?

 

[magmachimera]

Egypt may need additional tweak such as nile river giving +25% food production, +50% Pop capacity etc

I suspect that all rivers, and perhaps also differently in the case of deltas, will give these kinds of bonuses but rather as a more general modifier on top of terrain.

 

[Oglesby]

You could make a point given that London location is so small that by 1800 it was all urban. But I think it's some very niche cases. Most of the locations are to big compared to they're citys even in 1800 to be considerate urban.

I guess I was thinking that cities and towns wouldn't necessarily push the location from whatever vegetation they were to farmlands and was trying to think of another state it could move towards. It would make sense if the city/town had farm type RGOs or buildings, but beyond that I am not sure.

Again making me think that farmlands does not fit with the other vegetation types.

 

[SPb enjoyer]

There are LOTS of other reasons for migration attraction as well..

But other factors will not change the fact that, in the end, the climates of Moscow, Beijing, Turku, Mogadishu and the Great Victoria Desert can attract migrants (in principle), while the climate of Valencia, Thessaloniki, Varna, Odessa and Baku does not, for some reason

 

[Johan]

But other factors will not change the fact that, in the end, the climates of Moscow, Beijing, Turku, Mogadishu and the Great Victoria Desert can attract migrants (in principle), while the climate of Valencia, Thessaloniki, Varna, Odessa and Baku does not, for some reason

Yes, but if those there from below 5k pops I'd be surprised.

I think our usage of cold arid in some places is wrong though. For me, its like Gobi Desert, not Valencia.

 

[Dongerino]

Changing it in the game-logic is trivial. Its just that it will not change how it looks in terrain mapmode.

I don't know how the engine works so just spitballing here, but would it not be possible to use the same kind of code used for city graphics and stuff like the Hagia Sophia minarets in EU4? Like the minarets only appear on the map once the mosque decision is pressed or cities and buildings in Vicky 3 only appear on the map after some population or building thresholds are met. Can't the same be applied to forests? Except in reverse? i.e. tree models only appear on map if tree vegetation is present and disappear if the, I assume, "deforested" modifier since we can't change vegetation is present, the tree graphic disappears? And make it only update if one of those types of modifiers are added or removed for performance?

 

[Johan]

I don't know how the engine works so just spitballing here, but would it not be possible to use the same kind of code used for city graphics and stuff like the Hagia Sophia minarets in EU4? Like the minarets only appear on the map once the mosque decision is pressed or cities and buildings in Vicky 3 only appear on the map after some population or building thresholds are met. Can't the same be applied to forests? Except in reverse? i.e. tree models only appear on map if tree vegetation is present and disappear if the, I assume, "deforested" modifier since we can't change vegetation is present, the tree graphic disappears? And make it only update if one of those types of modifiers are added or removed for performance?

its not that trivial

 

[Inzano]

I don't know how the engine works so just spitballing here, but would it not be possible to use the same kind of code used for city graphics and stuff like the Hagia Sophia minarets in EU4? Like the minarets only appear on the map once the mosque decision is pressed or cities and buildings in Vicky 3 only appear on the map after some population or building thresholds are met. Can't the same be applied to forests? Except in reverse? i.e. tree models only appear on map if tree vegetation is present and disappear if the, I assume, "deforested" modifier since we can't change vegetation is present, the tree graphic disappears? And make it only update if one of those types of modifiers are added or removed for performance?

Probably the bigger problem is that rasterized vegetation areas, that areas within locations or provinces are changed for some reason or terrain, watercourses, climate, etc. Now, for example, if you reforest a grassland province, you have a problem with what density, if 100%, which is usually rare in a populated environment, you will literally have cities and countryside in the forest, the program cannot assess what it would be like if it were reforested. In fact, you would then need another raster, which would have a color scale for recognizing afforestation and deforestation. So, in fact, for each type of vegetation, you would have to somehow predict micro locations how the appearance changes. Which would mean that the topographic graphics themselves would have to be updated every month according to AI and player changes. It would probably be simpler to do this with vector data, which could be active in a polygon attribute that would represent one micro location, which could be actively changed on the map, but if the game does not support this. But in any case, I would have to look at the entire world map to see where the climatic conditions allow for reforestation. It really takes a lot of work just to change the appearance of one location or province.