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Tinto Talks #45 - 8th of January 2025

Welcome to another Tinto Talks! Happy Wednesday where we talk about our super-secret game with the codename Project Caesar, asking you for feedback!


Today we’ll go into the details of how terrain works in the game. To iterate from the Map-Tinto-Talks from almost a year ago, each location has three different attributes instead of a single one as previous games had. This creates more variation and allows us more granular control over game play.

Each location has a climate, a topography and a vegetation set. Sea locations do not have vegetation though.


Climate

climate.png


The climate of a location impacts how well pops can live there, including how much food can be produced. It also affects the maximum winter level of a location.

tropical.png
Tropical

Population Capacity +50%
Development Growth -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Tropical represents areas with high average temperatures and no winter.

subtropical.png
Subtropical

Population Capacity +100%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Subtropical represents areas with high average temperatures and mild winters.

oceanic.png
Oceanic
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Oceanic represents areas with mild winters but high humidity.

arid.png
Arid
Wheat Production -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Precipitation
No Winters

Arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water.

cold_arid.png
Cold Arid

Wheat Production -10%
No Precipitation
Max Winter is Mild

Cold arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water but experiences winters.

mediterranean.png
Mediterranean
Population Capacity +150%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Mediterranean represents areas with a perfect climate!

continental.png
Continental
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Normal

Continental represents areas with cold winters.

arctic.png
Arctic
Population Capacity -55%
Development Growth -25%
Life Expectancy -5
Max Winter is Severe

Arctic represents areas with very cold winters.

Vegetation

vegetation.png


Vegetation represents the foliage cover of a location.

desert.png
Desert

Can have Sandstorms
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
RGO Build time +50%
Road Build time +100%
Development Growth -10%
Food Production -33%
Population Capacity +10k

Deserts are barren landscapes with little precipitation and almost no potential for plant or animal life.

sparse.png
Sparse
Road Build time -10%
Population Capacity +25k

Sparse represent large flat areas of land with few or no trees.

grasslands.png
Grasslands
Food Production +10%
Population Capacity 50k

Grasslands represent terrain dominated by grass with little or no trees or shrubs.

farmland.png
Farmland
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
Road Build time +10%
Development Growth +10%
Population Capacity +100k
RGO Maximum Size +10%
Food Production +33%

Farmland represents anthropogenic terrain, devoted to crops and/or extensive pastures.

woods.png
Woods
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Road Build time +25%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -20%
Food Production +10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Woods represent terrain with less dense vegetation than forests.


forest.png
Forest
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +33%
Population Capacity +25k
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Forest represents terrain with dense vegetation.


jungle.png
Jungle
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +50%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -50%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A jungle represents terrain with dense forest and tangled vegetation that makes doing anything on the land difficult.




Topography

topography.png


Topography represents the roughness and elevation of the land within a location. Flatter Topography is generally better for growing Towns and Cities while rougher Topography is easier to defend.


These first ones are land related topographies.

flatland.png
Flatland

No special attributes

Flatland represents terrain that does not have any major topographic variation, so there are no impediments for army movement or building development.

mountains.png
Mountains
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -2
Movement is Blocked in Winter
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +100%
Population Capacity -80%
Development Growth -70%
Food Production -20%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Mountain terrain has high altitude and also steep slopes with relatively few and narrow flat areas, so it is more difficult for armies to cross and fight in it, and also more difficult to develop.

hills.png
Hills

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A terrain with hills has variations in the topography, but the slopes are not as steep nor as high as those of mountains, so the penalties are also not as bad.

plateau.png
Plateau
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -1
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

They represent relatively flat areas situated at high altitude, so they have some penalties compared to flatlands due to their elevation.

wetlands.png
Wetlands

Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +75%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%

Wetlands are terrain that is partially flooded, generally due to being near a river, lake, or coast.


The following are the naval ones.

ocean.png
Ocean
Naval Attrition +1%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel.

deep_ocean.png
Deep Ocean
Naval Attrition +2%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, in the furthest areas from any coast.

coastal_ocean.png
Coastal Ocean
No special attributes

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, but in the areas closer to the coast.

inland_sea.png
Inland Sea
Can Freeze over during winter

Inland seas represent the land-enclosed seas like the Mediterranean or the Baltic.

narrows.png
Narrows

Can Freeze over during winter
Movement Cost for Navies +20%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Narrows are areas of sea with proximity of coast on many sides, like straits or the sea inside archipelagos, where there is not much space for movement.


Lakes, Salt Pans and Atolls exists, but are just graphical variants of Coastal Oceans, even if lakes could freeze over during winter.

Stay tuned, as next week we’ll delve into the wonderful world of military objectives.
 
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Welcome to another Tinto Talks! Happy Wednesday where we talk about our super-secret game with the codename Project Caesar, asking you for feedback!


Today we’ll go into the details of how terrain works in the game. To iterate from the Map-Tinto-Talks from almost a year ago, each location has three different attributes instead of a single one as previous games had. This creates more variation and allows us more granular control over game play.

Each location has a climate, a topography and a vegetation set. Sea locations do not have vegetation though.


Climate

View attachment 1240989

The climate of a location impacts how well pops can live there, including how much food can be produced. It also affects the maximum winter level of a location.

View attachment 1240990 Tropical
Population Capacity +50%
Development Growth -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Tropical represents areas with high average temperatures and no winter.

View attachment 1240991Subtropical
Population Capacity +100%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Subtropical represents areas with high average temperatures and mild winters.

View attachment 1240992Oceanic
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Mild

Oceanic represents areas with mild winters but high humidity.

View attachment 1240993Arid
Wheat Production -10%
Life Expectancy -5
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Precipitation
No Winters

Arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water.

View attachment 1240994Cold Arid
Wheat Production -10%
No Precipitation
Max Winter is Mild

Cold arid represents an area that has a severe lack of available water but experiences winters.

View attachment 1240995Mediterranean
Population Capacity +150%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
No Winters

Mediterranean represents areas with a perfect climate!

View attachment 1240996Continental
Population Capacity +50%
Free Capacity Attracts Pops
Max Winter is Normal

Continental represents areas with cold winters.

View attachment 1240997Arctic
Population Capacity -55%
Development Growth -25%
Life Expectancy -5
Max Winter is Severe

Arctic represents areas with very cold winters.

Vegetation

View attachment 1240998

Vegetation represents the foliage cover of a location.

View attachment 1240999Desert
Can have Sandstorms
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
RGO Build time +50%
Road Build time +100%
Development Growth -10%
Food Production -33%
Population Capacity +10k

Deserts are barren landscapes with little precipitation and almost no potential for plant or animal life.

View attachment 1241000Sparse
Road Build time -10%
Population Capacity +25k

Sparse represent large flat areas of land with few or no trees.

View attachment 1241001Grasslands
Food Production +10%
Population Capacity 50k

Grasslands represent terrain dominated by grass with little or no trees or shrubs.

View attachment 1241002Farmland
Movement Cost for Armies +10%
Road Build time +10%
Development Growth +10%
Population Capacity +100k
RGO Maximum Size +10%
Food Production +33%

Farmland represents anthropogenic terrain, devoted to crops and/or extensive pastures.

View attachment 1241003Woods
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Road Build time +25%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -20%
Food Production +10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Woods represent terrain with less dense vegetation than forests.


View attachment 1241004Forest
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +33%
Population Capacity +25k
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Forest represents terrain with dense vegetation.


View attachment 1241005Jungle
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +50%
Population Capacity +50k
Development Growth -50%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A jungle represents terrain with dense forest and tangled vegetation that makes doing anything on the land difficult.




Topography

View attachment 1241006

Topography represents the roughness and elevation of the land within a location. Flatter Topography is generally better for growing Towns and Cities while rougher Topography is easier to defend.


These first ones are land related topographies.

View attachment 1241007Flatland
No special attributes

Flatland represents terrain that does not have any major topographic variation, so there are no impediments for army movement or building development.

View attachment 1241008Mountains
Movement Cost for Armies +100%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -2
Movement is Blocked in Winter
Maximum Frontage in Battle -4
Road Build time +200%
RGO Build time +100%
Population Capacity -80%
Development Growth -70%
Food Production -20%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

Mountain terrain has high altitude and also steep slopes with relatively few and narrow flat areas, so it is more difficult for armies to cross and fight in it, and also more difficult to develop.

View attachment 1241009Hills
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Land

A terrain with hills has variations in the topography, but the slopes are not as steep nor as high as those of mountains, so the penalties are also not as bad.

View attachment 1241010Plateau
Movement Cost for Armies +25%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -1
Road Build time +50%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -25%
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

They represent relatively flat areas situated at high altitude, so they have some penalties compared to flatlands due to their elevation.

View attachment 1241011Wetlands
Movement Cost for Armies +50%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -3
Road Build time +75%
RGO Build time +25%
Development Growth -30%
Food Production -10%

Wetlands are terrain that is partially flooded, generally due to being near a river, lake, or coast.


The following are the naval ones.

View attachment 1241012Ocean
Naval Attrition +1%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel.

View attachment 1241013Deep Ocean
Naval Attrition +2%

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, in the furthest areas from any coast.

View attachment 1241014Coastal Ocean
No special attributes

This is the open seas between the continents, where only the best of ships can travel, but in the areas closer to the coast.

View attachment 1241015Inland Sea
Can Freeze over during winter

Inland seas represent the land-enclosed seas like the Mediterranean or the Baltic.

View attachment 1241016Narrows
Can Freeze over during winter
Movement Cost for Navies +20%
Attacker Diceroll in Battle -1
Maximum Frontage in Battle -2
Blocks Vision from Adjacent Sea

Narrows are areas of sea with proximity of coast on many sides, like straits or the sea inside archipelagos, where there is not much space for movement.


Lakes, Salt Pans and Atolls exists, but are just graphical variants of Coastal Oceans, even if lakes could freeze over during winter.

Stay tuned, as next week we’ll delve into the wonderful world of military objectives.
Is there a mechanic to clear the jungle o forest? perhaps transform it into grassland or farmland and vice versa? because Im planning to expand Majapahit, having jungle as the majority of terrain makes it harder for me to play
 
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Dry is bad, you need regular rain.

However cold is bad, really really bad.

I use to live in the countryside outside of Stockholm. It was impossible to grow ANYTHING for many months, not just because it goes below 0 C many times each week even when its relative mild. The ground also freezes solid. One year me and my wife was planning to erect a new deer-proof "fence", and wanted it ready before we started planting season.. We had to make controlled fires for every single of the 80 poles we wanted to get into the ground, as its literally impossible to dig a half meter deep hole into the ground during that part of the year.
I would sign for such activity anytime though
 
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Mediterranean climates are often too dry/hot to perform agriculture all year round. Summer is often devastating for lots of crops, especially in Hot Summer Mediterranean Climates. Considering Northern Italy hosted the largest population density of Europe (Subtropical), and so did subtropical Asia, I don't agree Mediterranean should be 'the best' climate in the game.

Oceanic being equal to Continental is also not very realistic.

Oceanic +75%, Mediterranean +100% and Subtropical +125% would make more sense imo.
EDIT: actually, mediterranean should imo be equivalent to oceanic. Looking at which cities/nations line up with oceanic/mediterranean, mediterranean does not look like a much better region vs oceanic, pop-cap wise...
I think Oceanic and Mediterranean should probably both be +75% while subtropical stays at +100%, though bumping it up to +125% is justifiable. Regardless I strongly agree with this, Mediterranean being “perfect” just isn’t supported by the historical population data.

Also, unrelated but why is Jungle better than forest for popcap? It’s the same tree density of forest but with a tangled and impassable undergrowth, going by the description. Logically it should be as bad or worse than forests.
 
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For me, the proportions of the base population capacities from vegetation look a bit strange. Especially that grasslands only have half the pop cap as farmlands and forests half of that of jungle.

The second one might be because of the dense population for example in South-East Asia. But I would argue those are possible because of the tropical climate which allows all-year agriculture, not because of the jungle. As a consequence, the population cap bonus of tropical climate should maybe be increased, if the jungle pop cap is decreased.

I suggest a change as shown in the following table, or something similar:
VegetationPop cap right nowPop cap suggested
Farmland
100k​
100k​
Grasslands
50k​
70k​
Woods
50k​
60k​
Forest
25k​
40k​
Jungle
50k​
40k​
Sparse
25k​
25k​
Desert
10k​
10k​

Im aware that this may lead to a (significantly) higher world population capacity. To counter this a bit, I suggest pop cap modifiers of around -25% for hills and -10% for plateaus and wetlands.

All those numbers are examples of what proportions I would like to see. The important thing is the idea behind: Having a more granular and realistically proportioned population capacity to make the game more interesting.
 
For me, the proportions of the base population capacities from vegetation look a bit strange. Especially that grasslands only have half the pop cap as farmlands and forests half of that of jungle.

The second one might be because of the dense population for example in South-East Asia. But I would argue those are possible because of the tropical climate which allows all-year agriculture, not because of the jungle. As a consequence, the population cap bonus of tropical climate should maybe be increased, if the jungle pop cap is decreased.

I suggest a change as shown in the following table, or something similar:
VegetationPop cap right nowPop cap suggested
Farmland
100k​
100k​
Grasslands
50k​
70k​
Woods
50k​
60k​
Forest
25k​
40k​
Jungle
50k​
40k​
Sparse
25k​
25k​
Desert
10k​
10k​

Im aware that this may lead to a (significantly) higher world population capacity. To counter this a bit, I suggest pop cap modifiers of around -25% for hills and -10% for plateaus and wetlands.

All those numbers are examples of what proportions I would like to see. The important thing is the idea behind: Having a more granular and realistically proportioned population capacity to make the game more interesting.
Actually, tropical climate doesn't mean year-round agriculture. In the game, jungles and tropical climate represent three climate zones: Af (tropical rainforest), Am (tropical monsoon) and As/Aw (tropical savanna) (so technically four, but really nobody ever distinguishes As from Aw). Cultivation in savannas is not easy, while in tropical monsoons it's possible (at least there is actual rain), but not year-round. Tropical rainforests, however, have extremely poor soil, definitely not suited for cultivation. This is dealt with by using one of several techniques, the most common (and famous) being slash-and-burn, which consists of burning large swathes of land to enrich the soil and plant stuff for a few years, after which you need to move your plantation to another area and wait for the rainforest to grow again. So no, tropical climate doesn't correlate to year-round agriculture at all.

And yes, the game actually puts jungles in tropical savannas, look at eastern India:

1747509937861.png


Now that I think about it, maybe this is another reason behind jungles having such a high population capacity.
 
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Actually, tropical climate doesn't mean year-round agriculture. In the game, jungles and tropical climate represent three climate zones: Af (tropical rainforest), Am (tropical monsoon) and As/Aw (tropical savanna) (so technically four, but really nobody ever distinguishes As from Aw). Cultivation in savannas is not easy, while in tropical monsoons it's possible (at least there is actual rain), but not year-round. Tropical rainforests, however, have extremely poor soil, definitely not suited for cultivation. This is dealt with by using one of several techniques, the most common (and famous) being slash-and-burn, which consists of burning large swathes of land to enrich the soil and plant stuff for a few years, after which you need to move your plantation to another area and wait for the rainforest to grow again. So no, tropical climate doesn't correlate to year-round agriculture at all.

And yes, the game actually puts jungles in tropical savannas, look at eastern India:View attachment 1301277

Now that I think about it, maybe this is another reason behind jungles having such a high population capacity.
I see, "year-around agriculture" was a huge oversimplification (and for lots of areas just wrong) on my part. But I would still argue that the tropical climate leads in a lot of places for 2 or even 3 harvests a year, for example rice. And that this has a bigger impact on the population it can support than having a jungle instead of a forest.

I'm also not per se against the idea of having a higher pop cap for jungle than for forest of course, but then I wouldn't see it being 2:1, but maybe something around 4:3. For example 50k for jungle and 35k-40k for forests.
 
As long as people operate with one aspect (e.i. climate) without taking in consideration all of them at the same time and how they interact, this whole conversation is empty bs talk of opinions....

hypothetical next person take on it: for blabla reason I think jungle should have 111% modifier and hills 72,5% and every second full moon should experience 3,34% higher mortality rate......

Secondly, as long as people compare forest=forest and jungle=jungle.... while at the same time sttamer: but,but,but, Mediterranean is the best!?! wtf?! We all know that a fertile triangle between London-Stockholm-Frankfurt should have its own type of 250% capacity, +50% development, +10% discipline
 
A strong argument for Mediterranean climates not being the best for agricultural is that in a Mediterranean climate the warmest, sunniest months, where plants would otherwise grow the most, is also the driest. I live in a Mediterranean climate, where we often get no rain during the summer, and most plants stop growing and turn brown during the height of summer.
 
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A strong argument for Mediterranean climates not being the best for agricultural is that in a Mediterranean climate the warmest, sunniest months, where plants would otherwise grow the most, is also the driest. I live in a Mediterranean climate, where we often get no rain during the summer, and most plants stop growing and turn brown during the height of summer.
I too live in mediterranean climate, and it is true there is no rain during summer. My area had occasional summer storms before but for the few years now there is no rain at all. And it also gets annoyingly hot that everything, especially grass, becomes dry and yellow. Without watering on almost daily basis during heat waves you really can't even have a garden here (unless you are into xericscaping)
 
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