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Tinto Talks #47 - 22nd of January 2025

Hello Everyone and Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we give you some information about our entirely secret upcoming game with the codename of Project Caesar.

As mentioned in https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/psa-tinto-talks-topic-change-this-week.1726639/ we have a change of schedule for this week.

Today we’ll go through the market screen and show how it's used in the game. Here I will be playing as Sweden, and this is the 6th iteration of the UI we have done for the economy system as we kept iterating upon it to make it more player friendly. Our goal has been to give you important information at a glance and reduce the amount of clicks you need to do anything to a minimum.


market.png


At the top of the screen you can see the balance tab for all your fun sliders, and the trade tab where all your trades are shown.

First, let's explain all the keywords you see here.

Trade Efficiency
This modifies how much gold you get from trades, by directly impacting the price you sell goods in the target market. A negative will decrease the profit, and could even make a trade unprofitable if the margins are low enough.

Production Efficiency
This impacts the output of buildings. A positive Production Efficiency increases the profit, while a negative may make it not worth keeping open.

Trade Advantage
The Trade Advantage of countries in a market determines who will be able to get their exports fulfilled first. If there is a limited amount of supply of goods in a market they get distributed by the trade advantage that each country has in that market.

Market Attraction
This impacts how much pull a market_center has over a location to make it a part of its market. As we play Sweden here, and currently don’t have a market, it's not that important to us.

Trade Maintenance
Trading is not free, as the ships, wagons, and caravans need to be maintained, and the merchants themselves need to be paid.

Market Protection
Protectionism is a desire to keep trade within one's own Country. This is represented by one location_modifier and one country_modifier, which reduce locations' likelihood of belonging to foreign markets.

Trade Capacity
This is if we have any bonus to how much capacity each merchant has in all our markets. This represents how much a country can export and/or import from a market. Each trade created from this market uses merchant_capacity depending on the distance to the other market, and the volume of goods that trade is doing.

Trade Range
This is simply how far our merchants can reach, and determines how distant the markets we can trade with can be. This is calculated from any market we have merchants in.


Below we have the search bar and filter list. This is something we have in pretty much every screen with a list of objects in Project Caesar. The Search Bar allows you to just type what you look for, and it will check on names, or any other relevant information that is connected to the elements in the list. The filter allows you to toggle any data.

filters.png

These are the filters we have for the market list.


Let’s focus on the market entry of Riga then. This is a UI widget, which we refer to as the Market Card, that you will see in several screens, as it gives you information about the market, while allowing you to quickly do actions.

riga.png

The flag and name do not need to be explained

In the top right corner we have an automation button, which allows you to toggle trade automation for that market.

Below it you will see 5 blue buttons, all with important information.

The first shows the amount of trade capacity available and how much you have in that market. If you click on it, it would open the buildings overview tab, with this market filtered, and with all buildings you have and could build that could increase your trade capacity in that market.

The second shows our position in the market when it comes to trade advantage and clicking it will open up your trades with a filter for the market, so you can quickly change your trades.

The third button shows how many types of goods you have some sort of lack for when it comes to your constructions or the requirements of your buildings in this market. The banner is only shown if there are any goods lacking. Yellow if buildings are inefficient due to lacking of some of the goods and red if there is a blocker. If you click on it you get to the goods screen with the needs and the market filters selected.

The fourth button is similar to the third, but is about the needs of your pops in this market. The banner goes red if you have pops in the market that are actively part of a rebel faction. If you click on it you get to the goods screen with the needs and the market filters selected.

Below here is the tooltip for this button...
pop_needs.png

Yeah, I’d also be upset if I lacked wine…


The fifth button shows the current food balance in the market, and if you click it you go to the food screen, with any locations in the market you can get food from in the filter. If any province is starving or likely to starve in the next 6 months, you will see alerts there as well.


Lets end by taking a quick look at what the goods panel shows when we click the fourth button..

goods.png


Market widget is at the top, as mentioned above, where it acts as a filter for the information displayed below The buttons to the right allow you to quickly toggle to the next market we have presence in, or remove the market filter to see data for your whole country.

Normal search bar and lots of possible filters. The “Pop Needs” filter is present, so the list below only displays the goods that our Pops are currently demanding.

Let’s now explain this list, with 4 entries.

First is the icon of the goods, in a tiny little version, so it works fine with lots of goods at the same time.

Second is a small vertical progress bar, which shows how much goods are in the stockpiles in the filtered market. Obviously empty here.

Third is the monthly balance in the market, which is very red and negative, so we need to do something about it.

Fourth is the price in the market, with gold or silver icons indicating relative price, with Wine being more expensive than the default price, indicating that imports can be profitable here.

Then we have the two buttons for importing and exporting. The export button is greyed out, as there is no surplus. We have some capacity so we could attempt to import about 2 goods of one type.

After that is the Expand RGO button, Cloth can not be expanded as it's not a raw material, but the others are also greyed out, as there are no Wine production in Sweden, and no gold or silver mines. The Sala Silvermine was not present in 1337, but there is a nice DHE for it. If any of the RGOs were available, clicking on the button would open the Expand RGO screen with all locations you own with that raw material in the filter. The number on the button shows the profit of the most profitable RGO of that good you can expand in your territory.

The final button is the “build a building that produces the goods” button. If you click on it, it would open the buildings overview tab, with this market filtered, and with all buildings you have and could build that could produce that good in that market. Now the quick thinking of you will ask: “wine?” Yes, there is a production method for Breweries that can turn fruit into wine.



Cheers, next week we will back the regular scheduled programming.
 
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Can you give an example of what would modify the price negatively that isn't production costs or maintenance costs.

Am not trying to poke holes - am just trying to understand what Trade Efficiency actually represents.

Trade efficiency much like in EU4 will come from things like tech advances, laws and estate privilages, events, etc. It's not part of the marchet mechanic so to speak, it's just a modifier to represent certain countries had better traders and were better at trade, just like in EU4, don't overthink it
 
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Could there be another line in the information tab showing us the trade capacity your burghers have in that market? I think it is very important to see if your burghers have a big enough capacity to so you dont have to worry as much about certain trades like in this case cloth because they will soon import it. But you would need to see quickly at glance their capacity to assess if its big enugh to take care of the deficit.

well, the burghers already do their trades to maximum each month, so seeing their capacity has no impact at all on your decisions.
 
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He just did. They are completely unrelated. Trade efficiency is how much extra or less they can squeeze out of a trade deal your savvy traders. Maintenance has nothing to do with how good your traders are, but with how costly it is to transport the trade etc.

Are you saying Trade Efficiency is purely about how good your Traders are at selling - or is it something else?

If it is, Trade Efficiency seems like a misleading name. Efficiency usually references costs of distributing goods throughout the supply chain.
 
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Can you give an example of what would modify the price negatively that isn't production costs or maintenance costs.

Am not trying to poke holes - am just trying to understand what Trade Efficiency actually represents.
It's a multiplier to the price you can get on the good. Using numbers from the TT, if you export 1 wine at the 2,65 price with -2.23% trade efficiency you'll get 2,59 ducats for it. If you had a +5% modifier instead, you'd get 2,78 ducats when you complete the trade. Subtract from that the maintenance cost of the trade and that'll be presumably your profit.
 
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In both really disappointed with not getting juicy PU gameplay and very satisfied with this deep dive in the market UI. It is starting to reduce my fears that the amount of goods is too unwieldy to make fun and seems like a pretty nice game of juggling around supply and demand
 
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One question I have always had about trade capacity. Does it count for imports, exports or both? Say Im sweden and I have 2 trade capacity. Does that trade capacity count towards importing 2 cloths from England, or do I need to have trade capacity in the English market in order to import from it?
 
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well, the burghers already do their trades to maximum each month, so seeing their capacity has no impact at all on your decisions.

Wait, so your burghers trade capacity is the same as the countries? Like a duplication? So if your trade capacity is 2, the burghers is also 2? I think it would still be useful as we have seen that burgher trade capacity has modifers such as estae privileges so your trade capaicty and the burghers is going to differ, no?
 
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It's a multiplier to the price you can get on the good. Using numbers from the TT, if you export 1 wine at the 2,65 price with -2.23% trade efficiency you'll get 2,59 ducats for it. If you had a +5% modifier instead, you'd get 2,78 ducats when you complete the trade. Subtract from that the maintenance cost of the trade and that'll presumably your profit.

Yes, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking not how it impacts the end numbers, but what the abstraction represents.
 
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How much does this affect game stability, especially lategame or when the trading is most intense? Wasn't there something with demand system or something, that got removed, because it made game laggy?

no impact.
 
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One question I have always had about trade capacity. Does it count for imports, exports or both? Say Im sweden and I have 2 trade capacity. Does that trade capacity count towards importing 2 cloths from England, or do I need to have trade capacity in the English market in order to import from it?
In the goods TT, one of Johan's replies said that you can use capacity either from the importing market or the exporting market. So you could use that 2 to import form England, or if you have capacity in the London market you can use that to export to Riga.
 
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Are you saying Trade Efficiency is purely about how good your Traders are at selling - or is it something else?

If it is, Trade Efficiency seems like a misleading name. Efficiency usually references costs of distributing goods throughout the supply chain.

It's a legacy name from Eu4. I think its pretty easy to understand and not misleading, especially when you see trade costs have their own category, trade maintenence.

That's why certain countries like England, Portugal or England got SO many trade efficiency modifiers from ideas and missions, to represent how they were more merchant savvy and oriented.

It's the same here
 
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Are the ducats held by the crown and the estates all the money present in the country and therefore the money only moves from hand to hand? Or does the money appear and disappear from different places, such as spending on buildings or paying court expenses?

If it were the first way, which I fear it will not be, the economic effects derived from minting and the trade balances will be very realistic and dynamic without the need to program and abstract everything.
 
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Wait, so your burghers trade capacity is the same as the countries? Like a duplication? So if your trade capacity is 2, the burghers is also 2? I think it would still be useful as we have seen that burgher trade capacity has modifers such as estae privileges so your trade capaicty and the burghers is going to differ, no?
I think the point is more that burghers won't reserve any trade capacity from one mont to another, and it won't change drastically that often, so their impact will most of the time be already taken into account when you're deciding what to do as your country in the market.
 
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Are the ducats held by the crown and the estates all the money present in the country and therefore the money only moves from hand to hand? Or does the money appear and disappear from different places, such as spending on buildings or paying court expenses?

If it were the first way, which I fear it will not be, the economic effects derived from the minting and the trade balances will be very realistic and dynamic without the need to program and abstract everything.

Money spent on stability, court, or buildings doesnt go to anyone and it disappears indeed. All the money created from the economy from selling goods to the market does however go to the estates, which you then tax.
 
I think my sole comment is a UI related one. When I saw the first screenshot, listing the eight variables under market, I initially thought there were six as the background image creates what I would term a 'frame' around the bottom six, leading me to initially assume the top two were headers of a sort.

Now, once I understood those top two were in fact other variables I made perfect sense of it, but it still looks aesthetically displeasing if you ask me. Better all eight variables were contained within the 'frame' provided by the image.
 
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still praying you add a whaling industry, and north American ivory trade(walrus and narwhal hunting). It would add so much flavor to Scandinavia and Iceland/Greenland and make them more useful then just a staging ground for new world colonization.
 
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Can you give an example of what would modify the price negatively that isn't production costs or maintenance costs.

Am not trying to poke holes - am just trying to understand what Trade Efficiency actually represents.

One trade example.

Your friendly swedish merchant buys 10 units of Coal for in London 50€, as the price for coal there is 5€

He then sells the 10 units of Coal in Riga for 60€ for a profit of 10€as the price for coal there is 6€

Trade Efficiency
With a Trade Efficiency of 5%, he would get an additional 3€ in profit, giving him a total profit of 13€.

Trade Maintenance
Shipping 10 units of between London and Riga required 20 capacity, and the maintenance cost per capacity is 0.10€, adding a cost of 2€ to the trade. If we got a Trade Maintenance reduction of 10%, it would cost 1.8€ to do the trade.

Total Profit is 11.2€

If we instead ship the coal to Lübeck, where the price for coal is 5.5€ and requires 10 capacity to ship, it would be like this.
Base Profit of 5€
Trade Efficiency adds 2,75€ (5% of 55€)
Trade Maintenance is 0.9€ (-10% from 1€)

Total Profit is 6.85€

Now you may think, trading from London to Riga is higher profit, so its clearly better... but, we have 10 more trade capacity in London that could be used on another trade, that could perhaps be similar in profit, and give us a bigger total profit.
 
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Quick question, if I want to import something as Sweden from the Lubeck market to the Riga market and I do it from the Riga market, is the trade advantage Sweden has in the Lubeck market(assuming they have it) that decides the order in which Sweden goes, the trade advantage in the Riga market or none and Sweden goes last no matter what

Its always the trade advantage you have in the market you export the good from.
 
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