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Tinto Talks #47 - 22nd of January 2025

Hello Everyone and Welcome to another Tinto Talks, the Happy Wednesday where we give you some information about our entirely secret upcoming game with the codename of Project Caesar.

As mentioned in https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/psa-tinto-talks-topic-change-this-week.1726639/ we have a change of schedule for this week.

Today we’ll go through the market screen and show how it's used in the game. Here I will be playing as Sweden, and this is the 6th iteration of the UI we have done for the economy system as we kept iterating upon it to make it more player friendly. Our goal has been to give you important information at a glance and reduce the amount of clicks you need to do anything to a minimum.


market.png


At the top of the screen you can see the balance tab for all your fun sliders, and the trade tab where all your trades are shown.

First, let's explain all the keywords you see here.

Trade Efficiency
This modifies how much gold you get from trades, by directly impacting the price you sell goods in the target market. A negative will decrease the profit, and could even make a trade unprofitable if the margins are low enough.

Production Efficiency
This impacts the output of buildings. A positive Production Efficiency increases the profit, while a negative may make it not worth keeping open.

Trade Advantage
The Trade Advantage of countries in a market determines who will be able to get their exports fulfilled first. If there is a limited amount of supply of goods in a market they get distributed by the trade advantage that each country has in that market.

Market Attraction
This impacts how much pull a market_center has over a location to make it a part of its market. As we play Sweden here, and currently don’t have a market, it's not that important to us.

Trade Maintenance
Trading is not free, as the ships, wagons, and caravans need to be maintained, and the merchants themselves need to be paid.

Market Protection
Protectionism is a desire to keep trade within one's own Country. This is represented by one location_modifier and one country_modifier, which reduce locations' likelihood of belonging to foreign markets.

Trade Capacity
This is if we have any bonus to how much capacity each merchant has in all our markets. This represents how much a country can export and/or import from a market. Each trade created from this market uses merchant_capacity depending on the distance to the other market, and the volume of goods that trade is doing.

Trade Range
This is simply how far our merchants can reach, and determines how distant the markets we can trade with can be. This is calculated from any market we have merchants in.


Below we have the search bar and filter list. This is something we have in pretty much every screen with a list of objects in Project Caesar. The Search Bar allows you to just type what you look for, and it will check on names, or any other relevant information that is connected to the elements in the list. The filter allows you to toggle any data.

filters.png

These are the filters we have for the market list.


Let’s focus on the market entry of Riga then. This is a UI widget, which we refer to as the Market Card, that you will see in several screens, as it gives you information about the market, while allowing you to quickly do actions.

riga.png

The flag and name do not need to be explained

In the top right corner we have an automation button, which allows you to toggle trade automation for that market.

Below it you will see 5 blue buttons, all with important information.

The first shows the amount of trade capacity available and how much you have in that market. If you click on it, it would open the buildings overview tab, with this market filtered, and with all buildings you have and could build that could increase your trade capacity in that market.

The second shows our position in the market when it comes to trade advantage and clicking it will open up your trades with a filter for the market, so you can quickly change your trades.

The third button shows how many types of goods you have some sort of lack for when it comes to your constructions or the requirements of your buildings in this market. The banner is only shown if there are any goods lacking. Yellow if buildings are inefficient due to lacking of some of the goods and red if there is a blocker. If you click on it you get to the goods screen with the needs and the market filters selected.

The fourth button is similar to the third, but is about the needs of your pops in this market. The banner goes red if you have pops in the market that are actively part of a rebel faction. If you click on it you get to the goods screen with the needs and the market filters selected.

Below here is the tooltip for this button...
pop_needs.png

Yeah, I’d also be upset if I lacked wine…


The fifth button shows the current food balance in the market, and if you click it you go to the food screen, with any locations in the market you can get food from in the filter. If any province is starving or likely to starve in the next 6 months, you will see alerts there as well.


Lets end by taking a quick look at what the goods panel shows when we click the fourth button..

goods.png


Market widget is at the top, as mentioned above, where it acts as a filter for the information displayed below The buttons to the right allow you to quickly toggle to the next market we have presence in, or remove the market filter to see data for your whole country.

Normal search bar and lots of possible filters. The “Pop Needs” filter is present, so the list below only displays the goods that our Pops are currently demanding.

Let’s now explain this list, with 4 entries.

First is the icon of the goods, in a tiny little version, so it works fine with lots of goods at the same time.

Second is a small vertical progress bar, which shows how much goods are in the stockpiles in the filtered market. Obviously empty here.

Third is the monthly balance in the market, which is very red and negative, so we need to do something about it.

Fourth is the price in the market, with gold or silver icons indicating relative price, with Wine being more expensive than the default price, indicating that imports can be profitable here.

Then we have the two buttons for importing and exporting. The export button is greyed out, as there is no surplus. We have some capacity so we could attempt to import about 2 goods of one type.

After that is the Expand RGO button, Cloth can not be expanded as it's not a raw material, but the others are also greyed out, as there are no Wine production in Sweden, and no gold or silver mines. The Sala Silvermine was not present in 1337, but there is a nice DHE for it. If any of the RGOs were available, clicking on the button would open the Expand RGO screen with all locations you own with that raw material in the filter. The number on the button shows the profit of the most profitable RGO of that good you can expand in your territory.

The final button is the “build a building that produces the goods” button. If you click on it, it would open the buildings overview tab, with this market filtered, and with all buildings you have and could build that could produce that good in that market. Now the quick thinking of you will ask: “wine?” Yes, there is a production method for Breweries that can turn fruit into wine.



Cheers, next week we will back the regular scheduled programming.
 
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The UI looks really good and functional. My only constructive piece of feedback is on this section:View attachment 1246201

  1. The Tab is called "Markets", but then it immediately gives me numbers that seem to be about a single market, such as Market Attraction...
    1. If "Market Attraction" is a metric of how Sweden is attractive to any market within its locations, then I would suggest (probably too late) for something like "Attractiveness to Markets"
    2. My main point is that, for a non EU4 player like myself, my first reaction to these numbers was that they were about a market and not about Sweden

1) no, the market attraction is your impact on all your markets
 
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I see. So needs are taken care of first, while moving stuff comes after. So basically if there's 10 cloth in a market, and all the countries in that market need 8 cloth, the Trade Advantage only concerns itself with the cloth that is left over and seeing where it goes. The actual needs of the market are covered first. So that 2 cloth that is left over is what is covered by trade advantage, meaning if two countries want to export it and have 2 capacity for it, the one with the higher access will be able to take it all.

yes thats correct
 
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We have several on the team who have trade fully automated when they play.

I guess I will see it when the game comes out or you publish more detail. I want to interact with the trade system and make choices beyond what was possible in EU4. However, once you built a world-spanning empire as a colonial power, I guess micro-managing all markets where you have some trade might be one overwhelming. It would be sad if that then means full automation and no more interaction. Something in-between would be the sweet spot for my taste. I am looking forward to more information on this as I love playing trading nations in EU4.
 
Total Profit is 6.85€
Please, where does this profit go then?
  • Directly to our country's trade profit and out budget?
  • To estates and then proportionally taxed?
  • Only to burghers and then taxed?
  • Or burghers get their own profit from the trade that is then taxed?
 
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We got support for the following colorblind types.


With the some examples hown below..


View attachment 1246221View attachment 1246222
The contrast in these modes is much better.
I'm not colorblind, but the default contrast really is not that good. Red/Red-ish text is always difficult, if the background is brown or blue and similarly saturated. The saturated numbers make a big difference already.
Non-colorblind users also deserve a good contrast, without resorting to colorblind modes (which tend to look a bit off, if the whole spectrum is visible, no offense meant) ;).
 
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well, the burghers already do their trades to maximum each month, so seeing their capacity has no impact at all on your decisions.

no, the burger trades are done AFTER all national trades are done, and all burghers in the market adds all their burghercapacity to the market and try to solve important needs in the market.
Since the burgers do their trades "AFTER all national trades are done" and "try to solve important needs in the market" wouldn't it be beneficial to know what their capacity is in the market before I select 'trades' in said market specially if I am cash poor and might rather spend my ducats elsewhere if the burghers could cover the shortage.

Or I guess, when you are showing the shortages is it already assuming the Burgher trades?
 
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Please, where does this profit go then?
  • Directly to our country's trade profit and out budget?
  • To estates and then proportionally taxed?
  • Only to burghers and then taxed?
  • Or burghers get their own profit from the trade that is then taxed?
If you do the trade, you get all the money directly. If the burghers did the trade, they get the money and then it gets taxed based on your burgher taxation rate.
 
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If you do the trade, you get all the money directly. If the burghers did the trade, they get the money and then it gets taxed based on your burgher taxation rate.
Thanks, that sounds reasonable!
 
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Do we get any tools to set up rules for how automated trade handles specific goods&markets?

Are goods always exported/imported in a whole digit unit?

Do anyone get paid for all the shipping costs? Or is it just a goldsink to control the amount of gold?

How goods stored in stockpile interact with demand generated by foreign actors inside that market?

I imagine we can put tax/tarrif the merchants' profits from their trade?

Can Banking tags offer a source of gold/silver as a good to a specific market?
 
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I guess I will see it when the game comes out or you publish more detail. I want to interact with the trade system and make choices beyond what was possible in EU4. However, once you built a world-spanning empire as a colonial power, I guess micro-managing all markets where you have some trade might be one overwhelming. It would be sad if that then means full automation and no more interaction. Something in-between would be the sweet spot for my taste. I am looking forward to more information on this as I love playing trading nations in EU4.

He said in the trade TT you can exclude certain goods form automation if you want to handle that trade yourself.

So maybe as the UK you can automate all of your trade except tea, spices and silk, which you can manually micro manage for diplomacy purposes or to maximize profits, while the rest you only care about being well supplied.
 
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You buy the coal in Riga for 60€and sell it for 50€ in London. (This is assuming there IS any surplus coal in riga to export)

Base Profit is -10€
Trade Efficiency adds 5% of 50€, ie 2.5€
And a cost of 1.8€.

So the first month you'd lose 9.3€, and it will get worse as prices drop in London and increase in Riga due to supply increasing in London and demand increasing in Riga.
To take that example to the ludicrous extreme, if you have a trade efficiency of 80%, London pays 50€ but you get 90€ revenue giving a profit (after transport costs) of 28.2€? Or does London pay 90€ because your trade efficiency just makes them pay that much more than the fair price? If it's the latter case, then suppose London only needs to buy 30 coal off the market and other countries sell a total of 30 coal at 0% trade efficiency. Does that mean you don't get to sell anything as your insane trade efficiency makes your rip off price unappealing?

Also, is the transport cost paid when the trade is executed (i.e. someone buys your stuff) or just to put your goods on the market at all?
 
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I have a few questions;
1. When it comes to pop needs, will there be differences based on culture and religion, for example Muslim pops not needing wine, or lumber not being needed for heating in tropical climates?
2. Also regarding buildings and for pop needs Clay and stone to be needed for buildings in some parts of the world where they did not have access to wood and did not really use much of it for building homes?
 
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1737568258331.png

I may be wrong, but having a lot of indicators over artpiece doesn't look good, maybe placing them on some dark blue UI widget in a more compact way like in other places would look better?
 
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Given that whoever has highest trade advantage does all their trades first, I’m not sure whether the flag on a market represents the country that owns the market building (which could be the location owner, or presumably a banking country) or the country with the highest trade advantage in this market. Or does owning the building automatically give you highest trade advantage?
 
How can different countries compete in exporting a market surplus if the goods belong to a third party? Is it first click gets it or can you snatch the good away from someone else involved in the market if you have some sort of higher modifier?

Regarding trade automation, having it be automatic ensures equilibrium but you still need to manually build output buildings manually? Putting market transaction on manually is therefore mostly useful if you want to use your market leverage to flood a market to harm a competitor who relies on a good or if you want to create artificial scarcity to price someone out/damage the market location so they go elsewhere?
 
One trade example.

Your friendly swedish merchant buys 10 units of Coal for in London 50€, as the price for coal there is 5€

He then sells the 10 units of Coal in Riga for 60€ for a profit of 10€as the price for coal there is 6€

Trade Efficiency
With a Trade Efficiency of 5%, he would get an additional 3€ in profit, giving him a total profit of 13€.

Trade Maintenance
Shipping 10 units of between London and Riga required 20 capacity, and the maintenance cost per capacity is 0.10€, adding a cost of 2€ to the trade. If we got a Trade Maintenance reduction of 10%, it would cost 1.8€ to do the trade.

Total Profit is 11.2€

If we instead ship the coal to Lübeck, where the price for coal is 5.5€ and requires 10 capacity to ship, it would be like this.
Base Profit of 5€
Trade Efficiency adds 2,75€ (5% of 55€)
Trade Maintenance is 0.9€ (-10% from 1€)

Total Profit is 6.85€

Now you may think, trading from London to Riga is higher profit, so its clearly better... but, we have 10 more trade capacity in London that could be used on another trade, that could perhaps be similar in profit, and give us a bigger total profit.

Trade efficiency seems to make profit out of thin air since you are already selling for the profit margin being accounted for? Who pays the extra 3 gold to the selling merchant if the buyer is paying 60 already? Shouldn’t trade efficiency then be how much of the price difference between two markets you can get away with?